Are you a Continuationist or a Cessationist?

[Albion]

There seems to be a lot of criticism of Pentecostal churches by folk from Evangelical churches, but nothing much is said about the increasing influence of liberal theology that has taken over the majority of Evangelical churches where belief in the inerrant Word of God, a real infinite-personal God, Jesus coming and being on earth at a particular time of history, that He rose from the dead, and that the Holy Spirit is a real person who has come to the Church to represent Jesus, is not supported. Most if not all Evangelical Seminaries are teaching Bishop Spong's liberal theology and this is increasing so that by the next generation of new church pastors and ministers, liberal, Christless theology will be the norm in Evangelical churches. So, when Evangelicals criticise the Pentecostal churches, they need to look to their own churches first to deal with the demonic liberal theology that is growing like a cancer.

Well, those are two different issues, Oscarr.

The presence of one of them doesn't say anything about the other one, one way or the other; and I would point out that there is actually MUCH MORE criticism of the liberal, modernist, trends affecting many churches than there is criticism of Pentecostal Christians and Pentecostal churches.

 

[Spirit of Pentecost]

The bible shows the gifts ceased in several ways. One is that apart from the two outpourings, the gifts came ONLY through the Apostles' hands. And when God took them home he retracted the gifts he used to authenticate their ministry.

Where exactly does it say that?

 

[Dave L]

Where exactly does it say that?

We see the laying on of hands in Jerusalem (Acts 6:6), Ephesus (Acts 19:1–7), and Samaria (Acts 8:14–17) and throughout Paul’s journeys where he gave the gifts (2 Timothy 1:6; Romans 1:11). God sent Ananias, who according to history was one of the original seventy disciples ordained by Christ, through whose hands Paul became healed and filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 9:17).

No mention of any other means of distribution after the two outpourings.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Well, those are two different issues, Oscarr.

The presence of one of them doesn't say anything about the other one, one way or the other; and I would point out that there is actually MUCH MORE criticism of the liberal, modernist, trends affecting many churches than there is criticism of Pentecostal Christians and Pentecostal churches.

The reality is that the full-gospel message is the truth - that the supernatural gifts and ministries of The Holy Spirit are badly needed to be able to get the gospel message to our increasingly pagan western society. This is not Pentecostalism, it is the Bible, and if people won't accept that, then they can get over it and start obeying the Bible instead of cherry picking the bits they believe and reject the bits they don't.

The early Church Apostles, missionaries and preachers preached the gospel with signs and wonders incorporated in it. It is the preaching of that gospel along with healing and the casting out of pagan demons that turned the Roman Empire upside down and won thousands of pagans to Christ. It was the supernatural acts that convinced the pagans that Jesus was stronger than their gods.

In these modern times, there are still pagan "gods", and that the Christian world view is a minority opinion in today's society. If it needed supernatural acts in Roman times, we need those just the same today if we are to turn our godless society upside down and cause Christian faith to be the majority force in our society. That's what The Holy Spirit came and brought His supernatural ministries and gifts for.

The reason why people think that these things are just "Pentecostal" or "Charismatic" is because it is those people who are seeking for and trying to activate the supernatural. All they are doing is trying to obey what the Bible tells them. Other churches have replaced the supernatural with rituals and ceremonies, and therefore have turned themselves into "clubs" instead of a churches that go out and make disciples for Christ. The Holy Spirit did not come to the Church to form it into a club. He came to empower the Church to go out and win the lost for Christ. The Holy Spirit doesn't care about our ceremonial services, or even the jerking, vibrating, falling stuff in some Pentecostal services. What He wants is the Church to get out into the community and share that God is a good God, and that Jesus came to save the lost, and to demonstrate it by getting people healed and set free from tormenting demonic influence. It is only when people see that God really loves them and does supernatural acts to clearly show it, that they will listen to the message. Otherwise it falls on deaf ears because why should they just go and join a Christian "club"? They get more enjoyment and fun going to their bar "club" or their sports club, or other secular club they enjoy. But when The Holy Spirit shows the love of Christ through healing and deliverance, then they will see that the life of Christ is far different and they will be drawn to Christ.

So, this is the Bible, and we have the choice about whether we are prepared to believe it or not. And there will be consequences for us according to the choices we make. So, that is where I stand, and when you can show me chapter and verse from the Bible that the supernatural ministries and gifts are not for today, then I will "recant". (But some obscure half a verse out of 1 Corinthians 13 will not convince me.)

 

[Chinchilla]

that the supernatural gifts and ministries of The Holy Spirit are badly needed to be able to get the gospel message to our increasingly pagan western society

1 Corinthians 1:22-24 King James Version (KJV)
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

 

[Albion]

" There seems to be a lot of criticism of Pentecostal churches by folk from Evangelical churches, but nothing much is said about the increasing influence of liberal theology that has taken over the majority of Evangelical churches "

I suppose that there must be a hundred different things that might be said about Pentecostal churches, Oscarr, but that (above) is what my post was commenting on.​

 

[Hazelelponi]

Nvm..

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

1 Corinthians 1:22-24 King James Version (KJV)
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

The signs that the Jews and Greeks sought for were not healing and deliverance from demons which the Holy Spirit anoints believers to do to show the love of God and of Christ in order to get people saved. Genuine believers do not seek for signs in themselves, they seek to have the gospel preached with power and demonstration of the Holy Spirit in order to arrest the attention of unbelievers in order to get them to listen to the gospel and to get saved.

The Jews sought for a sign to proved the coming of the Messiah. They sought for some great sign in the sky, and when they didn't see it when Jesus was there, they did not believe in Him and ended up crucifying Him as a subverter of their Jewish traditional religion.

We need to know the difference.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

@Oscarr - the reality is I've sat here and watched people CLEARLY twist scripture to suit their own beliefs/desires, while ignoring legitimate questions..

The reality is for most of us its not a dispute about the Holy Spirit, nor even the gifts of the Spirit, the TRUE issue is that a majority of Pentecostal churches follow/have/present to us a completely different spirit than the Holy Spirit we know.

As such we must all ask ourselves if a genuine child of God is in clear spiritual danger by attending some of these churches.

I believe that question lent itself to some denying the existence of the spiritual gifts for today, and others just avoid pentacostals like the plague.

But if Pentecostals are ever going to not be looked at quite so skeptically, you all might like to consider why that is, because all I just said is true, and perhaps seek discernment in your all's branch of "faith".

We need to look away from the Pentecostal churches and the way they practice their doctrines and beliefs. We need to look at what the Bible says and teaches and base our faith and practice on that. So what if many Pentecostals are not showing the spirit of Christ? How should their failings affect your walk with Christ? Are you going to say that you are not going to enter into the gifts and ministries of the Spirit as the Bible teaches you, just because many others misuse them and not live according to what Christ and John talked about loving God and loving others? If we believe God is a good God and wants people saved, and He has given us The Holy Spirit with His supernatural gifts to enable us to do that effectively, then why are we judging the Holy Spirit on the practice of many Pentecostals?

I wouldn't care if the whole Pentecostal church became apostate and went into goofy and false doctrines. That would not affect my faith in Christ and the supernatural power of the Holy Spirit. Because using the gifts of the Spirit is not Pentecostalism, but it is the Bible.

So if you are offended by the practice of the Pentecostals you have seen, well, get over it! Get your eyes off those people and onto Christ in the Bible. Jesus had the whole religious system of Israel against Him, and those were the prominent Bible teachers of His time. Did Jesus slink away with His tail between His legs and say, "I am not going to do this ministry because they are all hyocrites"? NO!!! He knew what His Father's will was, and like Martin Luther who said, in the face of the whole established Church against him, "Even if the whole world is full of devils, I will not compromise my stand in Christ." Jesus went out and healed people and cast demons out of them. He showed that He was the Son of Christ, and those Pharisees and teachers of the Law could put that in their religious pipes and smoke it!!!

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

We see the laying on of hands in Jerusalem (Acts 6:6), Ephesus (Acts 19:1–7), and Samaria (Acts 8:14–17) and throughout Paul’s journeys where he gave the gifts (2 Timothy 1:6; Romans 1:11). God sent Ananias, who according to history was one of the original seventy disciples ordained by Christ, through whose hands Paul became healed and filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 9:17).

No mention of any other means of distribution after the two outpourings.

That's because it became the ordinary thing that was going on in the churches. Also, Acts is only a small slice of what was happening in the Early Church. When God says something in His Word about something, it remains true. When God wants to change anything, He will say so. But when He wants things to remain as they are, He will stay silent, because He will expect folk to obey what He originally said. If the gifts of the Spirit and the laying on of hands was meant to cease, God would have said so. The fact that there is nothing said about it ceasing, means that it was and is meant to continue. You can believe it all ceased if you like. That is your privilege, and you will live with the consequences of that, but I would not advise you to go teaching other people that because you might find God may not like it and be grieved at you.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

" There seems to be a lot of criticism of Pentecostal churches by folk from Evangelical churches, but nothing much is said about the increasing influence of liberal theology that has taken over the majority of Evangelical churches "

I suppose that there must be a hundred different things that might be said about Pentecostal churches, Oscarr, but that (above) is what my post was commenting on.​

Oh, I see!

It is good to know that. I have "buttons" and when they are pressed, my full-gospel Bible believing comments just flow out. It is true that the Evangelical/Modernist debate in churches is causing a major division, not only in the established traditional churches, but in Bible-believing Evangelical churches as well.

The existential "faith in faith" - that Jesus is the "Christ of faith" rather than the historical Jesus, and that "if I believe [something] it is true" and this has caused people to believe stuff that is not in the Bible. Doubts about the Resurrection, and the turning inward of churches instead of getting out into the community to win souls, is slowing affecting even the best Evangelical churches.

The invasion of modernism is also affecting Charismatic churches, for example: The Word of Faith movement started off Biblically sound, but as it went on, the "I believe it, therefore it is true." without basing that belief on the Bible, has corrupted that movement in many areas. Some Pentecostal churches have turned inward with their definition of the "anointing" to emotional and sensory experiences not too removed from New Age thinking, "If it feels right, it is true."

People can get saved, healed and set free from demons without any accompanying sensory stuff, other than love, peace and joy. Even the love, peace and joy are icing on the cake and not the cake itself.

In my view, folks who base their faith on the Bible, get people saved, healed and set free from demons, and who use the supernatural gifts of the Spirit, are normal. Those who don't are goofy religious people who still have a lot to learn about who Christ is and what He wants to do in them.

 

[Dave L]

That's because it became the ordinary thing that was going on in the churches. Also, Acts is only a small slice of what was happening in the Early Church. When God says something in His Word about something, it remains true. When God wants to change anything, He will say so. But when He wants things to remain as they are, He will stay silent, because He will expect folk to obey what He originally said. If the gifts of the Spirit and the laying on of hands was meant to cease, God would have said so. The fact that there is nothing said about it ceasing, means that it was and is meant to continue. You can believe it all ceased if you like. That is your privilege, and you will live with the consequences of that, but I would not advise you to go teaching other people that because you might find God may not like it and be grieved at you.

We need scripture to support our claims.

 

[Dave L]

The reality is that the full-gospel message is the truth - that the supernatural gifts and ministries of The Holy Spirit are badly needed to be able to get the gospel message to our increasingly pagan western society. This is not Pentecostalism, it is the Bible, and if people won't accept that, then they can get over it and start obeying the Bible instead of cherry picking the bits they believe and reject the bits they don't.

The early Church Apostles, missionaries and preachers preached the gospel with signs and wonders incorporated in it. It is the preaching of that gospel along with healing and the casting out of pagan demons that turned the Roman Empire upside down and won thousands of pagans to Christ. It was the supernatural acts that convinced the pagans that Jesus was stronger than their gods.

In these modern times, there are still pagan "gods", and that the Christian world view is a minority opinion in today's society. If it needed supernatural acts in Roman times, we need those just the same today if we are to turn our godless society upside down and cause Christian faith to be the majority force in our society. That's what The Holy Spirit came and brought His supernatural ministries and gifts for.

The reason why people think that these things are just "Pentecostal" or "Charismatic" is because it is those people who are seeking for and trying to activate the supernatural. All they are doing is trying to obey what the Bible tells them. Other churches have replaced the supernatural with rituals and ceremonies, and therefore have turned themselves into "clubs" instead of a churches that go out and make disciples for Christ. The Holy Spirit did not come to the Church to form it into a club. He came to empower the Church to go out and win the lost for Christ. The Holy Spirit doesn't care about our ceremonial services, or even the jerking, vibrating, falling stuff in some Pentecostal services. What He wants is the Church to get out into the community and share that God is a good God, and that Jesus came to save the lost, and to demonstrate it by getting people healed and set free from tormenting demonic influence. It is only when people see that God really loves them and does supernatural acts to clearly show it, that they will listen to the message. Otherwise it falls on deaf ears because why should they just go and join a Christian "club"? They get more enjoyment and fun going to their bar "club" or their sports club, or other secular club they enjoy. But when The Holy Spirit shows the love of Christ through healing and deliverance, then they will see that the life of Christ is far different and they will be drawn to Christ.

So, this is the Bible, and we have the choice about whether we are prepared to believe it or not. And there will be consequences for us according to the choices we make. So, that is where I stand, and when you can show me chapter and verse from the Bible that the supernatural ministries and gifts are not for today, then I will "recant". (But some obscure half a verse out of 1 Corinthians 13 will not convince me.)

The signs and wonders expired with the Apostles. Actually before they expired as we see in the sicknesses of many in the epistles.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The signs and wonders expired with the Apostles. Actually before they expired as we see in the sicknesses of many in the epistles.

So that means that all the Christian church has now are just words without any evidential power. If that is so, how come there are thousands of testimonies of people getting saved (which is one of the greater works that Jesus said we would do) which is a wonder in itself; and thousands of people getting healed (confirmed by their medical doctors and specialists); and people getting set free from demonic influences? How come? These things shouldn't be happening if what you are saying is true.

All through Church history, there have been revivals where people have been saved, healed and set free from demons. So, are you saying that the Methodist revival, where Wesley had 250 confirmed healings, including his horse; Jonathan Edwards, Charles Finney in the Great Awakening in America; the Welsh revival where salvation and healing were prominent; William Booth and the Salvation Army revival; the Argentine revival where confirmed healing and salvation was so frequent, that the revival movement which formed a new denomination became larger than the Methodist and the Catholic churches in that country; were all false because they involved the same signs and wonders that existed in the Early Church? Isn't that what you are saying?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

We need scripture to support our claims.

All you have to do is read the book of Acts. Notice that it was the only book in the Bible that did not have an ending. This is because the Acts of the Apostles and those who followed them have continued through Church history and is still happening today.

 

[Dave L]

All you have to do is read the book of Acts. Notice that it was the only book in the Bible that did not have an ending. This is because the Acts of the Apostles and those who followed them have continued through Church history and is still happening today.

We need scripture, not hypothesis.

 

[Dave L]

So that means that all the Christian church has now are just words without any evidential power. If that is so, how come there are thousands of testimonies of people getting saved (which is one of the greater works that Jesus said we would do) which is a wonder in itself; and thousands of people getting healed (confirmed by their medical doctors and specialists); and people getting set free from demonic influences? How come? These things shouldn't be happening if what you are saying is true.

All through Church history, there have been revivals where people have been saved, healed and set free from demons. So, are you saying that the Methodist revival, where Wesley had 250 confirmed healings, including his horse; Jonathan Edwards, Charles Finney in the Great Awakening in America; the Welsh revival where salvation and healing were prominent; William Booth and the Salvation Army revival; the Argentine revival where confirmed healing and salvation was so frequent, that the revival movement which formed a new denomination became larger than the Methodist and the Catholic churches in that country; were all false because they involved the same signs and wonders that existed in the Early Church? Isn't that what you are saying?

We have scripture that does a better job than any of the Charismatic gifts did.

 

[Hishandmaiden]

We need scripture, not hypothesis.

Where is your scriptures to support your claims?
Look at the china house churches.
It is their beliefs in miracles and spiritual gifts that convert many villagers to Christ.

 

[Hishandmaiden]

Nowhere in the bible does it claim that the spiritual gifts cease with the apostles.

 

[Dave L]

Where is your scriptures to support your claims?
Look at the china house churches.
It is their beliefs in miracles and spiritual gifts that convert many villagers to Christ.

You need scripture and documentation to support this claim.