are women responsible for men's sin?

[Paidiske]

Strawman argument.

?? Here's all this argument in this thread that men are so much more visual, that this is so much more of a problem for them, that, therefore, women's modesty is so much more important...

And I'm saying it's built on a false premise. Women's sexuality isn't so much different, we've just mostly inhabited a culture where we haven't been allowed to be honest and open about it.

How is that a straw man?

 

[SolomonVII]

Actually, sometimes the Devil does do quite a bit that we just dismiss as human sin. Shame on us.

I think every time we do Sin, we do the bidding of the devil. We look to the devil as our father, maybe not just some of the time, but every time that we sin.
When Adam explained to God that it was Eve that God gave him, who then gave Adam the fruit and made him sin, this is the kind of reasoning that our father, the devil, inspires in his spawn.

God on the other hand inspires us to take responsibility for our own mistakes, and our own evil, which he will always forgive when we do take responsibility for it. More than this though God inspires us to have the courage to face up to our fears and temptations before we fall in the first place.

 

[RDKirk]

?? Here's all this argument in this thread that men are so much more visual, that this is so much more of a problem for them, that, therefore, women's modesty is so much more important...

It's a strawman for you to argue it with me, because that has not been my position.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Unsanitary? You are talking about people who did far less to foul their air and water over thousands of years then Westerners have done over the past century.

Yes, they did less to foul the environment. Instead, they concentrated on their native traditions. Ever hear of The Sambians or the Trobrianders of Papau, New Guinea?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I think I understand your argument, and I agree with it as a broad principle. What I disagree with is the way it has played out in Christian communities, where all blame and responsibility is placed on women, and where it is women who are policed and controlled.

I quite agree with you there, and I'm not insisting that men's faults be ignored. As I've already told another poster here in this thread, I think men have had the lion's share of sin in the world. However, this thread is focusing on women's responsibilities before God.

We have to try to get men to see that they also play a part in sinful sexual dynamics, and that they can't just make it all our fault!

Of course. As I've told others here, my focus isn't on ignoring what men themselves have contributed to the ongoing corruption in society.

(And I don't think many women are saying "It's his problem," I think the ones who do take an "I'll wear what I want" approach are saying, "It shouldn't be a problem, and he needs to get over it," which is a slightly different thing).

...even the bible acknowledges that it can be a problem. Of course, ideally, truly and fully "Christian" men should have their self-control intact and their wits about them. But, again, as we see from the Bible, particularly in the Old Testament, even the supposedly most godly of men can fail on the sexual front..................sometimes from having just one look even of female skin [i.e. King David as an instance].

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I think every time we do Sin, we do the bidding of the devil. We look to the devil as our father, maybe not just some of the time, but every time that we sin.
When Adam explained to God that it was Eve that God gave him, who then gave Adam the fruit and made him sin, this is the kind of reasoning that our father, the devil, inspires in his spawn.

God on the other hand inspires us to take responsibility for our own mistakes, and our own evil, which he will always forgive when we do take responsibility for it. More than this though God inspires us to have the courage to face up to our fears and temptations before we fall in the first place.

Of course. Everyone should be responsible for his or her own sins, and I'm not denying that. I'm wondering why everyone is harping on this specific point with me? My focus in commenting here is to in turn point out at the same time that, unfortunately, our modern society likes to slice and dice the responsibility sectors into "It's either ALL his fault, or it's ALL this other guy's (or gal's) fault--but it can't be the fault of both..."

...To which I say, "hogwash"! Sure, we might not have contributed ourselves to our next-door neighbor's improprieties, abuses, or whatever wrongs they've done, but it might just be that somebody else did (or more than one other somebodies), and those other somebodies contributed heavily to the formation of your neighbor's lack of discretion or unruly behavior (i.e. sin). For instance, it's not uncommon for abused children to grow up and in turn abuse their own children.

 

[Paidiske]

It's a strawman for you to argue it with me, because that has not been my position.

Are you not saying that men are so much more visual? Or am I now just hopelessly confused about who's saying what?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Are you not saying that men are so much more visual? Or am I now just hopelessly confused about who's saying what?

It's not a myth.

https://www.researchgate.net/profil...ual-sexual-stimuli-Nat-Neurosci-7-411-416.pdf

 

[Paidiske]

I've seen such research before, but I believe that's in large part because women have been socialised to suppress our natural responses.

 

[RDKirk]

Are you not saying that men are so much more visual? Or am I now just hopelessly confused about who's saying what?

"Much more visual" does not mean women are not visual. Men are practically only visual, but women are certainly not.

As I said before, women enjoy pleasant visual sights, for sure. But Elvis wasn't popular with women simply because he was handsome--he could also sing and dance; Marilyn Monroe was popular with men only because she was beautiful--she needed no other characteristic whatsoever.

Many, many men have married women based on absolutely nothing but their physical beauty.

 

[Paidiske]

"Much more visual" does not mean women are not visual. Men are practically only visual, but women are certainly not.

Then what on earth does that matter, for the purposes of this discussion?

We're all visual. We all need to learn to deal with our own responses to enticing visual stimuli. Making this a men vs. women issue is just incredibly unhelpful.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I've seen such research before, but I believe that's in large part because women have been socialised to suppress our natural responses.

I hate to say it, but that sounds like denial. Sure, many men can be spiritually irresponsible, compulsive bumpkins. BUT, that fact doesn't alter the biological reality that may also very well be involved in mens' being spiritual bumpkins, and that is what many of you ladies misunderstand. Is it too much to ask you ladies to help us help ourselves?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

.

 

[RDKirk]

Then what on earth does that matter, for the purposes of this discussion?

We're all visual. We all need to learn to deal with our own responses to enticing visual stimuli. Making this a men vs. women issue is just incredibly unhelpful.

There is a problem in the fact that you even perceive my statements as "men versus women."

That's like saying a comment that Africans babies are generally born with darker skin than Finnish babies is "African versus Finns." That's what your perception amounts to--that recognition of any difference is automatically an assertion of conflict or hierarchy.

 

[SolomonVII]

Of course. Everyone should be responsible for his or her own sins, and I'm not denying that. I'm wondering why everyone is harping on that. My point in commenting here is to point out at the same time is that, unfortunately, our modern society likes to slice and dice the responsibility sectors into "It's either ALL his fault, or it's ALL this other guys (or gals) fault--but it can't be the fault of both."

To which I say, "hogwash"! Sure, we might not have contributed ourselves to our next-door neighbors improprieties, abuses, or whatever, but it might just be that somebody else (or more than one other somebodies) did contribute to your neighbor's lack of discretion or unruly behavior (i.e. sin). For instance, it's not uncommon for abused children to grow up and in turn abuse their own children.

I have sometimes contemplated what is meant biblically by the admonishment not to judge. So often what it comes to mean is a censure to express a holy opinion on morality, or to make a statement as to what is right and wrong.
But then often the same people turn around and judge the history of Christianity as if in the early centuries the vast majority of Christians were not uneducated barbarians and the sons and daughters of barbarians.

Yes, of course we are as much a product of our own societies as much as we are of our own choices.
And more than that, even two people of the same social environment have very different physiologies. Not all men are as attuned to the sexual attractiveness of a lady. Is the man who has no sexual desires as a result of his physiology therefore somehow more moral than the man whose struggles with testosterone surges are constant?
Maybe refraining from judging is refraining from assigning moral blame to anybody.
It is a very different kind of morality that refrains from making any judgment whatsoever about the girl in the bikini, or the bad boys sleeping around, and confines morality to taking responsibility for our own behaviour, as individuals.
Blaming outside forces for our failings has an aspect of truth to it. For sure it is only disinterested eunuchs that have emerged from the hyoersexualized hedonism of our generations unscathed. Taking responsibility on the other hand does not mean assigning blame, or finding fault, even with ourselves. Taking responsibility is empowerment. If we insist that others are responsibility for us and our failings, we remain slaves to them.

 

[Paidiske]

I hate to say it, but that sounds like denial. Sure, many men can be spiritually irresponsible, compulsive bumpkins. BUT, that fact doesn't alter the biological reality that may also very well be involved in mens' being spiritual bumpkins, and that is what many of you ladies misunderstand. Is it too much to ask you ladies to help us help ourselves?

I think it's the other way around; men deny women's sexuality to keep the whole discussion centred on men and their experiences and needs. I'm trying to balance the discussion to say that women and our experiences and our needs also have to be heard.

It's too much for men to want to make the whole discussion about men. First acknowledge women's lives and experiences and needs, and then we can attempt to meet in the middle about how we might do things in a way which works for everyone.

There is a problem in the fact that you even perceive my statements as "men versus women.".

This whole thread is men vs. women. The question of whether women are responsible for men's sins is inherently sexist, patriarchal and misogynistic. I'm trying to undermine the premises which would ever lead a man to ask such a thing.

 

[SolomonVII]

There is a problem in the fact that you even perceive my statements as "men versus women."

That's like saying a comment that Africans babies are generally born with darker skin than Finnish babies is "African versus Finns." That's what your perception amounts to--that recognition of any difference is automatically an assertion of conflict or hierarchy.

Good observation. Reducing the complex relations between the sexes as toxic masculinity and oppressive patriarchy, as the language of power and oppression of modern feminism has, leaves us in a situation of `us versus them`.
It has poisoned the dialogue.

This is actually something that Muslim woman’s rights workers have noticed and rejected. Sure they know that when it comes to women’s freedom in the ME, they have a long way to go. They are not idiots— well except the Islamist ones. I could name names.
Instead, they know when it comes to men and women, we are all in this together.
There is an an insanity in the idea that men are oppressors and women are the proletariat rising against their masters for social justice. It is an insane ideology that we have descended into that reduces the language to one of men versus women.

 

[RDKirk]

This whole thread is men vs. women. The question of whether women are responsible for men's sins is inherently sexist, patriarchal and misogynistic. I'm trying to undermine the premises which would ever lead a man to ask such a thing.

Only the OP who is making that argument, as I've pointed out to you before. How long are you going to stay in the same place in an ongoing discussion?

 

[RDKirk]

There is an an insanity in the idea that men are oppressors and women are the proletariat rising against their masters for social justice. It is an insane ideology that we have descended into that reduces the language to one of make versus women.

I have noted that in the language of this latest wave of feminism (whatever they want to say is after the Second Wave), the relationship between the sexes is necessarily a zero-sum game. That is a critical distinction between current feminism and Second-Wave feminism.

Also notable is that Second-Wave femininsts and even Third-Wave feminists identified themselves by "waves." However, current feminists deny "waves"--I suspect because women might investigate what the differences are and depart their ranks. I know my own daughter did...until after discussion with me she did her own investigation and realized that her support of feminism was limited to the second-wave.

 

[Doctor.Sphinx]

Have you visited any places where total nudity is common. Sounds to me like you are simply making a determination based on your Conservative Western values.

No, rather on the bible and God's provision of clothing for Adam and Eve once they had fallen into sin.

Even past civilizations understood this, with most female sculptures not being totally naked, even if some or all of the breasts were shown. I believe this was and is because total nakedness takes the focus away from the aesthetic and directs it toward the sexual.