are women responsible for men's sin?

[2PhiloVoid]

Well I know not what legalism, enlightenment philosophies are. I only know what I read the Bible to be saying and how those verses have been used in my life. But what I do know is that Jesus said 'If your eye causes you to sin...' He didn't say go and blame someone else.

As I said earlier, if I am tempted by a man's dress I take responsibility. If I feel that I have dressed immodestly I take responsibility. If someone seems to be acting creepy to me (if dressed modestly) I make it my resposibility to avoid him, and make sure I send off not interested body language.

Then, Sam, you are to be commended if you take responsibility for your portion of the overall problem ... especially since not all women, not even all Christian women, will do that.

 

[HannahT]

I would bet that you could ask an adult woman, "What do you like more than sex" and most can name five things off the tops of their heads, and could fill a page with a little time.

Men...not so much.

You have to wonder if women were not trained to stuff those things down the way they had been in history if that dynamic would not be a bit different.

I mean I don't know HOW women did it back in the day when they were told they were to ONLY do this for baby purposes, and were required - if you were rich enough - to have separate bedrooms to help that belief system along. I mean many churches encouraged this, and you would think they were NOT supposed to enjoy it either. It was supposed to be for the men's enjoyment ONLY!

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Marilyn never posed nude for Playboy. The photos were taken in a private photo shoot before Playboy magazine ever existed. The photographer later sold the photos to Playboy.

BTW, the photos that Playboy published of Marilyn showed no full frontal nudity. They show her breasts, just as Elvis made movies in which he showed his chest.

This has nothing to do with the fact that men have stronger sexual visual cues than women do.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

(shrugs) True the success was NOT the same! It was funny to steal Dad's magazines - so the story goes. You had to hide them too, because MOM would get more than upset.

Women have been trained and encouraged to get control of herself, because men were unable too.

If men were unable to? lol of course women were responsible for their sins - or so they say.

I think we have had unrealistic expectations in the past towards both genders. There was a shadow of shame on pregnant prior to marriage women, because men are just doing what they are wired to do. He went on with his life, and she carried that sin forever. Scarlet woman if you will. That attitude is just as stupid, hurtful and wrong towards both genders IMO. Yet, it was all the norm - or rage if you will in the past.

Women are also visually oriented. If you read my story about my phone call to my GF Melissa as a young person? My Dad found out that night how visually oriented we can be.

I take seriously what you've said here about the past, and I very much understand how the previous generations were different, and socially imposed upon to be proper. Some of those ways in the past were silly, and some of those ways were downright ignorant and results of a double-standard that favored men. However, I'm assessing where we are 'today.' And I'd say that sexual conservatism has basically been trashed by the ongoing 'sexual revolution.' And as they say, two wrongs don't make a right, in which I mean that today's over reactions and liberalization to yesterday's conservative hypocrisies doesn't somehow "balance" it all out.

 

[Drought of the Heart]

No satan temps an we have choice woman or man

 

[Archivist]

This has nothing to do with the fact that men have stronger sexual visual cues than women do.

Even if that is true it is irrelevant. We are each responsible for our own sins.

If I drive through a bad section of town in a brand new BMW, is it my fault if I get carjacked because I tempted someone with the expensive car, or does the fault lie on the perpetrator?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Even if that is true it is irrelevant. We are all responsible for our own sins.

No, I don't buy that!!!!!! Sin in self and society is polyvalent. And I for one am sick and tired of the whole of society neglecting it's legal and social responsibility and throwing it all off on single individuals. Sure, we each are "responsible" for our sins, but at the same time, this isn't to say that we are solely responsible for our individual sins.

If I drive through a bad section of town in a brand new BMW, is it my fault if I get car jacked beacuse I tempted someone with the expensive car, or does the fault lie on the perpetrator?

Not all sins or situations can be reduced to that two-dimensional hypothetical. It would be nice and simpler if they could be, though, wouldn't it?

Yeah, I'm not going to accept that. To me, that shows an unwillingness to really think, to really research the fullness of the social reality we live in. No, it's simpler to make up scenarios and stick to them, isn't it?

 

[Archivist]

No, I don't buy that!!!!!! Sin in self and society is polyvalent. And I for one am sick and tired of the whole of society neglecting it's legal and social responsibility and throwing it all off on single individuals. Sure, we each are "responsible" for our sins, but at the same time, this isn't to say that we are solely responsible for our individual sins.

Yes, we are each responsible for our own sins. If you want to put the blame on others that is between you and God.

Not all sins or situations can be reduced to that two-dimensional hypothetical. It would be nice and simpler if they could be, though, wouldn't it?

If you are tempted--whether the person doing the tempting is doing on purpose or not--it is your choice to act on it. That isn't the fault of anyone else.

Yeah, I'm not going to accept that. To me, that shows an unwillingness to really think, to really research the fullness of the social reality we live in. No, it's simpler to make up scenarios and stick to them, isn't it?

I notice you didn't answer my hypo. I presume that means that you don't have a good answer.

 

[Sam91]

No, I don't buy that!!!!!! Sin in self and society is polyvalent. And I for one am sick and tired of the whole of society neglecting it's legal and social responsibility and throwing it all off on single individuals. Sure, we each are "responsible" for our sins, but at the same time, this isn't to say that we are solely responsible for our individual sins.

Not all sins or situations can be reduced to that two-dimensional hypothetical. It would be nice and simpler if they could be, though, wouldn't it?

Yeah, I'm not going to accept that. To me, that shows an unwillingness to really think, to really research the fullness of the social reality we live in. No, it's simpler to make up scenarios and stick to them, isn't it?

I disagree a little. I think were are wholly and solely accountable for our own sin, then we are accountable in addition for where we have been in the wrong in provoking sin in others.

For example. Say someone is angry at me for dropping my money at the checkout and holding them up? Am I accountable? I can not be responsible for how they chose to react. If, however, I provoked that anger by dropping the money deliberately seeing they were in a rush; I am responsible for causing stress. However, that person is entirely to blame for their own anger.

In the Garden of Eden both Adam and Eve tried to push the blame away from themselves. Adam blamed Eve. Eve blamed the serpant. God held each responsible fore their own mistakes and punished each accordingly.

Galations 6 says we reap what we sow. If we give rise to allowing ourselves moments of lust we will be more prone to it. If we dress to draw attention we reap the bad name, guilt for helping others stumble in the sin they choose to indulge in.

The woman is not responsible for the man's sin. That is a disservice to suggest he is not competent enough to think for himself. She is responsible for her own vanity, lack of restraint and wanting to fulfill her fleshly want to be desired.

If she deliberately flirted, dressed to entice then she is guilty of that. However, the man still bears his full responsibilty because it was his choice to sin.

What we are not including is the innocent. Those who are pretty and not dressed immodestly and has a gentle spirit. That girl/woman has not sinned. She is the beauty that God made her to be. She can have no blame for that.

I keep thinking of the temptation of Jesus in Luke 4 and feel so grateful that He knew obedience was the only real choice. How I wish I could emulate Him and succeed in the little temptations as well as the larger ones. Isn't it surprising that the big temptations are often easiest to avoid but the little ones sneak in and grow as we give in? Jesus answered each temptation with scripture. Maybe that is part of the answer.

 

[HannahT]

I take seriously what you've said here about the past, and I very much understand how the previous generations were different, and socially imposed upon to be proper. Some of those ways in the past were silly, and some of those ways were downright ignorant and results of a double-standard that favored men. However, I'm assessing where we are 'today.' And I'd say that sexual conservatism has basically been trashed by the ongoing 'sexual revolution.' And as they say, two wrongs don't make a right, in which I mean that today's over reactions and liberalization to yesterday's conservative hypocrisies doesn't somehow "balance" it all out.

Humans do not act sanely - never have. lol! Many will live the consequences, and things in history will change once again.

I mean it seems okay today to give Stormy Daniels a key to a city because her alleged consensual relationship with the President gives truth to power. I'm not even sure what that means.

Compare that to women who spoke out about other powerful men that ruled the roost by routinely raping women, and threatening them NOT to say anything. Her knowing at the time more harm would come her way if she crossed him, but history finally changed the atmosphere that their reign of terror has ended under the 'me too' movement. Now those men are lining up for their time in a jail cell. lol that has more of a TRUTH TO POWER feel to it in my opinion.

Consent gives you the key to the city, and yet true rape victims don't. That logic there escapes me.

We really haven't moved pass the ignorant and double standard in many ways just yet. It actually shocks me that women can't see this themselves, but I guess they are too caught up in the moment.

 

[Sammy-San]

Remember also that Jesus said "but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea." (Matthew 18:6 ESV)

I'm not saying each man is not responsible for his own sin. I am saying that women who parade their boobs in an endeavour to entice, or even in an inconsiderate manner, may be guilty of causing men to sin. Using boobs for feeding little ones should certainly not be seen as parading, in my view. Being topless at the beach may depend on circumstance.

isnt that absolutley immodest (the topless at beach one)?

 

[Sammy-San]

Lungs and eyes aren't sexualised. Just because someone else sexualises a part of a woman's body, doesn't automatically make it immodest for a woman to show it.

Missionaries and the Decline of Hula - Hawaii History - Hula

 

[Sam91]

isnt that absolutley immodest (the topless at beach one)?

That depends on the area and intentions.

If on a beach in a region where it is normal to be sunbathing topless, and there are plenty doing it. I don't think it is necessarily immodest. However, if the said woman was striking up eye contact with men, smiling and posing then it would be immodest.

Even though, I would not be sunbathing dressed modestly or not. Life is for living, not lying in the sun all day.

 

[Archivist]

That depends on the area and intentions.

If on a beach in a region where it is normal to be sunbathing topless, and there are plenty doing it. I don't think it is necessarily immodest. However, if the said woman was striking up eye contact with men, smiling and posing then it would be immodest.

Even though, I would not be sunbathing dressed modestly or not. Life is for living, not lying in the sun all day.

So would.a topless man who is smiling at women and tolling with them being immodest?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Yes, we are each responsible for our own sins. If you want to put the blame on others that is between you and God.

This is so reductionistic it's pitiful.

If you are tempted--whether the person doing the tempting is doing on purpose or not--it is your choice to act on it. That isn't the fault of anyone else.

Oh.....so the "deception" of another human being, leading that other person into some kind of malfeasance on any level ....is the fault of the person so deceived?

I notice you didn't answer my hypo. I presume that means that you don't have a good answer.

You presume way too much. I did answer you, and I did so by dismissing your supposed "one-size fits all" hypo.

Man. I sure hope you don't hold some judicial position somewhere, because I'd hate to have you presiding over anything.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I disagree a little. I think were are wholly and solely accountable for our own sin, then we are accountable in addition for where we have been in the wrong in provoking sin in others.

For example. Say someone is angry at me for dropping my money at the checkout and holding them up? Am I accountable? I can not be responsible for how they chose to react. If, however, I provoked that anger by dropping the money deliberately seeing they were in a rush; I am responsible for causing stress. However, that person is entirely to blame for their own anger.

In the Garden of Eden both Adam and Eve tried to push the blame away from themselves. Adam blamed Eve. Eve blamed the serpant. God held each responsible fore their own mistakes and punished each accordingly.

Galations 6 says we reap what we sow. If we give rise to allowing ourselves moments of lust we will be more prone to it. If we dress to draw attention we reap the bad name, guilt for helping others stumble in the sin they choose to indulge in.

The woman is not responsible for the man's sin. That is a disservice to suggest he is not competent enough to think for himself. She is responsible for her own vanity, lack of restraint and wanting to fulfill her fleshly want to be desired.

If she deliberately flirted, dressed to entice then she is guilty of that. However, the man still bears his full responsibilty because it was his choice to sin.

What we are not including is the innocent. Those who are pretty and not dressed immodestly and has a gentle spirit. That girl/woman has not sinned. She is the beauty that God made her to be. She can have no blame for that.

I keep thinking of the temptation of Jesus in Luke 4 and feel so grateful that He knew obedience was the only real choice. How I wish I could emulate Him and succeed in the little temptations as well as the larger ones. Isn't it surprising that the big temptations are often easiest to avoid but the little ones sneak in and grow as we give in? Jesus answered each temptation with scripture. Maybe that is part of the answer.

Actually, the Bible says that Eve was deceived by Satan. She became Satan's dupe and hence made a bad analysis and then two bad decisions: she ate the forbidden fruit AND tempted Adam with it. And yes, Satan is responsible for Eve and Adam's downfall, at least partially. Otherwise, Jesus wouldn't have indicted Satan as having been a "murderer from the beginning."

Contexts are everything when dealing with the bible as well as in determining guilt; and that means that not everything is simple black-and-white. Personally, I feel a bit sorry for Adam and Eve, not just disgust at their sin.

 

[Sammy-San]

Actually, the Bible says that Eve was deceived by Satan. She became Satan's dupe and hence made a bad analysis and then two bad decisions: she ate the forbidden fruit AND tempted Adam with it. And yes, Satan is responsible for Eve and Adam's downfall, at least partially. Otherwise, Jesus wouldn't have indicted Satan as having been a "murder from the beginning." Context are everything when dealing with the bible; and that means that not everything is simple black-and-white. Personally, I feel a bit sorry for Adam and Eve, not just disgust at their sin.

The Sin Of The Filthy Hawaiian Hula Dance!

Certainly, the hula dance is filthy, lustful and provocative and should be discouraged by anyone who loves God and values the Lord's righteous opinion. The Lord commands Christian women in 1st Timothy 2:9 to cloth themselves in modest apparel. Of course, the world is dead and has always been dead in trespasses and sins as Ephesians 2:1-2 teaches. Unsaved Hawaiians who worship the earth will never honor nor obey the God of Christianity and the holy Bible. Choose ye this day whom ye will serve? As for me and my house, we WILL serve the Lord! (Joshua 24:15). We are living in an evil generation that does not consider itself wicked. Proverbs 30:12, “There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness.”

Don't you dare! Don't you dare profess to love the Lord as a Christian man if you sit and behold young sexy women in mini-skirts and skimpy underwear, sensually gyrating their hips from side-to-side, shaking their butts erotically and seducing the crowd by their hellish behavior!!!

 

[2PhiloVoid]

The Sin Of The Filthy Hawaiian Hula Dance!

I'm hesitant to open a link to where I know not which, Sammy. Is it safe?

 

[Sam91]

Actually, the Bible says that Eve was deceived by Satan. She became Satan's dupe and hence made a bad analysis and then two bad decisions: she ate the forbidden fruit AND tempted Adam with it. And yes, Satan is responsible for Eve and Adam's downfall, at least partially. Otherwise, Jesus wouldn't have indicted Satan as having been a "murderer from the beginning."

Contexts are everything when dealing with the bible as well as in determining guilt; and that means that not everything is simple black-and-white. Personally, I feel a bit sorry for Adam and Eve, not just disgust at their sin.

She was still punished. Regardless of whether you think she didn't sin, I think she did. I do not understand the premise that she didn't sin but am aware that others on this forum think she didn't too. 1 timothy 2:13-15

She knew that God said not to eat of the tree. She disobeyed God. She sinned. I imagine that if deceive didn't rhyme with Eve that people wouldn't think so.

Jesus was not deceived by Satan, he held fast to scripture.

This link also seems to agree that she did sin.

Contradictions: Who Gets the Blame for Original Sin—Adam or Eve?

 

[Sammy-San]

I'm hesitant to open a link to where I know not which, Sammy. Is it safe?

He was talking about how Hawaiian traditions are unbibical.