• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Are we still evolving?

Loudmouth

Contributor
Aug 26, 2003
51,417
6,143
Visit site
✟98,025.00
Faith
Agnostic
It's all adaptation and survival.


Luck is the same for all organisms. However, DNA isn't the same for all organisms, and the sequence of DNA in a genome can determine the chances that an individual will have offspring. It is this differential success as determined by inherited DNA that causes species to adapt.
 
Upvote 0

Zosimus

Non-Christian non-evolution believer
Oct 3, 2013
1,656
33
Lima, Peru
✟32,000.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Why isn't it being described as a single species interbreeding?
That's my question to you. You cannot refute my question to you by repeating the same question back to me.

The mutations in one species is not finding its way to the other species.
This statement has no clear meaning.

If they were the same species, then you would only have Dolphin A. You can't have a hybrid from two different species without first producing two different species.
No, because Dolphin A cannot have sex with Dolphin A. Didn't your mother ever explain to you where babies come from?
 
Upvote 0

Loudmouth

Contributor
Aug 26, 2003
51,417
6,143
Visit site
✟98,025.00
Faith
Agnostic
That's my question to you.

Why don't you ask the scientists who claimed they were separate species? Where is the scientific paper describing them?

This statement has no clear meaning.

A mutation that happens in dolphin species A is not going to be passed on through interbreeding to dolphin species B. This causes divergence over time.

No, because Dolphin A cannot have sex with Dolphin A. Didn't your mother ever explain to you where babies come from?

Dolphin A refers to a population of boy and girl dolphins.
 
Upvote 0

Zosimus

Non-Christian non-evolution believer
Oct 3, 2013
1,656
33
Lima, Peru
✟32,000.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
A mutation that happens in dolphin species A is not going to be passed on through interbreeding to dolphin species B. This causes divergence over time.
Speculation.

Dolphin A refers to a population of boy and girl dolphins.
No, it does not. Dolphin A refers to one individual dolphin, allegedly part of a different species from that of Dolphin B, with which Dolphin A had productive intercourse.
 
Upvote 0

Loudmouth

Contributor
Aug 26, 2003
51,417
6,143
Visit site
✟98,025.00
Faith
Agnostic
Speculation.

Observed.

"In total, 72 sequences were obtained for the mitochondrial cytochrome b gene for the three Stenella species, which grouped into 61 haplotypes (Table 1). No haplotypes were shared among the three species."
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0083645

Further phylogenetic tests demonstrated an intact barrier to genetic flow between the two species, as shown in fig 1 of the paper referenced above.

No, it does not. Dolphin A refers to one individual dolphin, allegedly part of a different species . . .

Then it means exactly what I said it meant before. The A, B, and C refer to species.
 
Upvote 0

Zosimus

Non-Christian non-evolution believer
Oct 3, 2013
1,656
33
Lima, Peru
✟32,000.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Observed.

"In total, 72 sequences were obtained for the mitochondrial cytochrome b gene for the three Stenella species, which grouped into 61 haplotypes (Table 1). No haplotypes were shared among the three species."
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0083645

Further phylogenetic tests demonstrated an intact barrier to genetic flow between the two species, as shown in fig 1 of the paper referenced above.



Then it means exactly what I said it meant before. The A, B, and C refer to species.
Ridiculous. This is a self-fulfilling prophecy. To the extent that genetic information flows from A into B, B is no longer defined as B but rather as C. Therefore, there is an intact barrier to genetic flow. Couldn't that same argument be made with anything?

Imagine that we define white humans and black humans as separate species. Since white people and black people can and do freely have babies together, this would seem ridiculous. However, by classifying the offspring of white and black people as some new species (insert term here) we can magically prove that "there is an intact barrier to genetic flow between the two species."
 
Upvote 0

Loudmouth

Contributor
Aug 26, 2003
51,417
6,143
Visit site
✟98,025.00
Faith
Agnostic
Ridiculous. This is a self-fulfilling prophecy. To the extent that genetic information flows from A into B, B is no longer defined as B but rather as C.

No, it isn't. If there were genetic flow between the populations then the same haplotypes would show up in each population. They don't.

Imagine that we define white humans and black humans as separate species. Since white people and black people can and do freely have babies together, this would seem ridiculous. However, by classifying the offspring of white and black people as some new species (insert term here) we can magically prove that "there is an intact barrier to genetic flow between the two species."

We find the same haplotypes in white and black populations.
 
Upvote 0

Zosimus

Non-Christian non-evolution believer
Oct 3, 2013
1,656
33
Lima, Peru
✟32,000.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Give one good reason why we should think it does? 'I want it to happen' just won't cut it.
Give one good reason we should think that the results of past scientific experiments are good predictors of the results of future scientific experiments. 'I want it to happen' just won't cut it.
--------------
I also noticed that your statement was "Give one good reason why we should think it does?"

If we omit the word "why" does the meaning of the sentence change? If not, what is the value added of the word "why" in the phrase "reason why?"

Is "Give me one good reason why we should think it does?" really a question?
 
Upvote 0

Jan Volkes

Well-Known Member
Jun 24, 2015
1,302
231
46
UK
✟2,674.00
Gender
Female
Marital Status
Married
Politics
UK-Labour
Give one good reason we should think that the results of past scientific experiments are good predictors of the results of future scientific experiments. 'I want it to happen' just won't cut it.
--------------
I also noticed that your statement was "Give one good reason why we should think it does?"

If we omit the word "why" does the meaning of the sentence change? If not, what is the value added of the word "why" in the phrase "reason why?"

Is "Give me one good reason why we should think it does?" really a question?
If we use completely different words we could change everything...... I hope it happens just for you, how about that?
Either way don't worry about it because if it happens it happens, if it doesn't it doesn't, can we change anything just by wishing? please feel free to dream on as much as you like, perhaps one day the penny will eventually drop.
 
Upvote 0

Zosimus

Non-Christian non-evolution believer
Oct 3, 2013
1,656
33
Lima, Peru
✟32,000.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
If we use completely different words we could change everything...... I hope it happens just for you, how about that?
Either way don't worry about it because if it happens it happens, if it doesn't it doesn't, can we change anything just by wishing? please feel free to dream on as much as you like, perhaps one day the penny will eventually drop.
You have very poor reading comprehension skills.

All I said was, "Your argument assumes that reincarnation does not occur." I never said that reincarnation occurred. I never said that I wanted reincarnation to occur. I simply pointed out that your argument, like other arguments around here, was based on an assumption.

Your latest response is, "If it happens, it happens" and "perhaps one day the penny will eventually drop" neither of which have anything to do with your (logical?) argument.
 
Upvote 0

Jan Volkes

Well-Known Member
Jun 24, 2015
1,302
231
46
UK
✟2,674.00
Gender
Female
Marital Status
Married
Politics
UK-Labour
All I said was, "Your argument assumes that reincarnation does not occur." I never said that reincarnation occurred. I never said that I wanted reincarnation to occur. I simply pointed out that your argument, like other arguments around here, was based on an assumption.
You might as well have said, "Your argument assumes that Jack and the Beanstalk did not occur", because like other arguments around here, was based on an assumption.
Yes it was for obvious reasons, where do we draw the line on what is real and what is not?
reincarnation, fairy stories, myths, superstitions, some people think they should all be considered to be real until they are shown not to be? that's a sure road to a lunatic asylum so please don't encourage them.
 
  • Like
Reactions: crjmurray
Upvote 0

Zosimus

Non-Christian non-evolution believer
Oct 3, 2013
1,656
33
Lima, Peru
✟32,000.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
You might as well have said, "Your argument assumes that Jack and the Beanstalk did not occur", because like other arguments around here, was based on an assumption.
Yes it was for obvious reasons, where do we draw the line on what is real and what is not?
reincarnation, fairy stories, myths, superstitions, some people think they should all be considered to be real until they are shown not to be? that's a sure road to a lunatic asylum so please don't encourage them.
No, my logic-challenged friend, Jack and the beanstalk are quite out of the scope of the argument.

It seems that you are sorely lacking in critical reasoning skills. Fortunately, I can help you. Let's start by looking at the following hypothetical argument.

John is tall, and he has a good job. Therefore, Maria will be strongly attracted to him.

The prediction in the passage rests on which of the following assumptions?

A) Maria does not have a boyfriend.
B) Maria makes more money than John does.
C) Jack and the beanstalk is not a true story.
D) Maria is attracted to tall men with good jobs.
E) Maria is already dating John.
---------------------------------------
When encountering a passage such as this one, it is important that you always read the question first. Until you know what your task is, there is no sense in reading the text. If, for example, the question asks you what can be inferred from the text, then you know that you need not worry about identifying assumptions. If the question asks you to find the flaw, then you will know from the outset that you will want to disagree with the passage.

In this case, the question informs us that we are looking for an assumption. For our purposes, an assumption is an unstated premise that is required for the argument to make sense. Assumptions support the argument and for that reason it is important that we identify the main point of the argument. The following steps can help you to determine the main point of the argument.

First, the main point is what the author of the argument wants you to believe. It will be supported by reasons (often called premises) that the author thinks give sufficient cause to believe the main point. The main point is never a statement of fact. It will always be an opinion, a prediction, or a conclusion.

Second, the main point is often accompanied by indicator words. Words such as therefore, accordingly, thus, hence, and in conclusion tell us that the main point is coming. You will note that in the above argument the word therefore accompanies the main point.

Third, the main point often contains a modal verb. Words such as must, should, can, might, and will often accompany the main point. You will note that in the above argument the word will is in the main point.

Fourth, the main point often contains a form of the verb to be. Words such as is, are, was, were, and be often indicate the main point. You will note that in the above argument the word be is in the main point.

Finally, we can apply the Why? test. Let us suppose that we mistakenly think that "John is tall" is the main point of the argument. We shouldn't because this is not a statement of fact but one of opinion. Nevertheless, the Why? test can help us to determine whether it really is. If you have correctly identified the main point, you should be able to use the rest of the argument to answer the question Why?

John is tall. Why? Because he has a good job. Because Maria will be strongly attracted to him. Does that make sense? Do those two reasons lead you to believe that John is tall? Obviously not. Therefore, we can see that John is tall has failed the why test.

However, if we select "Maria will be strongly attracted to [John]" as our main point and apply the Why? test we get different results. Maria will be strongly attracted to John. Why? Because John is tall. Because John has a good job.

Perhaps you don't find this argument particularly convincing. That's good -- it's important to be skeptical when encountering new arguments. The reason this argument is not persuasive is because the author assumes but does not prove or even state that women in general, along with Maria specifically, are attracted to tall men with good jobs. One clue that this argument relies on an assumption is the realization that the word attracted never appears in any of the reasons, but it does occur in the main point. Whenever a new word or surprising concept appears in the main point, that is a sure sign that the argument relies on an assumption involving that word or concept.

Now that we have an assumption in mind, we can return to the answer choices to determine which answer best fits with our ideas. Let's begin with choice A. Maria doesn't have a boyfriend. Could this be the assumption? Perhaps you think so. Perhaps if Maria does not have a boyfriend, she might be more attracted to John. However, there is a simple test to determine whether this really is the assumption of the argument. The assumption, when negated, should completely destroy the argument. What's the opposite of this? Maria has a boyfriend. Is it impossible for Maria to have a boyfriend and be attracted to John? Obviously not. Eliminate it.

What about choice B? Maria makes more money than John does. Does this statement support the main point? Actually, it might weaken the main point. Perhaps Maria will be unimpressed by John's job if she makes more money than he does. Eliminate it.

What about choice C? Jack and the beanstalk is not a true story. Could that be the assumption? If we negate this assumption, does it kill the main point? Hardly. Eliminate it.

What about choice D? Maria is attracted to tall men with good jobs. This is exactly what we are looking for. Without this belief, the main point will make no sense to us. Additionally, if we negate this we get the idea that Maria is not attracted to tall men with good jobs. If that is so, then certainly she will not be attracted to John. This is the best answer.
 
Upvote 0

Jan Volkes

Well-Known Member
Jun 24, 2015
1,302
231
46
UK
✟2,674.00
Gender
Female
Marital Status
Married
Politics
UK-Labour
No, my logic-challenged friend, Jack and the beanstalk are quite out of the scope of the argument.

It seems that you are sorely lacking in critical reasoning skills. Fortunately, I can help you. Let's start by looking at the following hypothetical argument.

John is tall, and he has a good job. Therefore, Maria will be strongly attracted to him.

The prediction in the passage rests on which of the following assumptions?

A) Maria does not have a boyfriend.
B) Maria makes more money than John does.
C) Jack and the beanstalk is not a true story.
D) Maria is attracted to tall men with good jobs.
E) Maria is already dating John.
---------------------------------------
When encountering a passage such as this one, it is important that you always read the question first. Until you know what your task is, there is no sense in reading the text. If, for example, the question asks you what can be inferred from the text, then you know that you need not worry about identifying assumptions. If the question asks you to find the flaw, then you will know from the outset that you will want to disagree with the passage.

In this case, the question informs us that we are looking for an assumption. For our purposes, an assumption is an unstated premise that is required for the argument to make sense. Assumptions support the argument and for that reason it is important that we identify the main point of the argument. The following steps can help you to determine the main point of the argument.

First, the main point is what the author of the argument wants you to believe. It will be supported by reasons (often called premises) that the author thinks give sufficient cause to believe the main point. The main point is never a statement of fact. It will always be an opinion, a prediction, or a conclusion.
Where does reincarnation fit into that lot? you didn't mention it once.
Second, the main point is often accompanied by indicator words. Words such as therefore, accordingly, thus, hence, and in conclusion tell us that the main point is coming. You will note that in the above argument the word therefore accompanies the main point.

Third, the main point often contains a modal verb. Words such as must, should, can, might, and will often accompany the main point. You will note that in the above argument the word will is in the main point.

Fourth, the main point often contains a form of the verb to be. Words such as is, are, was, were, and be often indicate the main point. You will note that in the above argument the word be is in the main point.

Finally, we can apply the Why? test. Let us suppose that we mistakenly think that "John is tall" is the main point of the argument. We shouldn't because this is not a statement of fact but one of opinion. Nevertheless, the Why? test can help us to determine whether it really is. If you have correctly identified the main point, you should be able to use the rest of the argument to answer the question Why?

John is tall. Why? Because he has a good job. Because Maria will be strongly attracted to him. Does that make sense? Do those two reasons lead you to believe that John is tall? Obviously not. Therefore, we can see that John is tall has failed the why test.

However, if we select "Maria will be strongly attracted to [John]" as our main point and apply the Why? test we get different results. Maria will be strongly attracted to John. Why? Because John is tall. Because John has a good job.

Perhaps you don't find this argument particularly convincing. That's good -- it's important to be skeptical when encountering new arguments. The reason this argument is not persuasive is because the author assumes but does not prove or even state that women in general, along with Maria specifically, are attracted to tall men with good jobs. One clue that this argument relies on an assumption is the realization that the word attracted never appears in any of the reasons, but it does occur in the main point. Whenever a new word or surprising concept appears in the main point, that is a sure sign that the argument relies on an assumption involving that word or concept.

Now that we have an assumption in mind, we can return to the answer choices to determine which answer best fits with our ideas. Let's begin with choice A. Maria doesn't have a boyfriend. Could this be the assumption? Perhaps you think so. Perhaps if Maria does not have a boyfriend, she might be more attracted to John. However, there is a simple test to determine whether this really is the assumption of the argument. The assumption, when negated, should completely destroy the argument. What's the opposite of this? Maria has a boyfriend. Is it impossible for Maria to have a boyfriend and be attracted to John? Obviously not. Eliminate it.

What about choice B? Maria makes more money than John does. Does this statement support the main point? Actually, it might weaken the main point. Perhaps Maria will be unimpressed by John's job if she makes more money than he does. Eliminate it.

What about choice C? Jack and the beanstalk is not a true story. Could that be the assumption? If we negate this assumption, does it kill the main point? Hardly. Eliminate it.

What about choice D? Maria is attracted to tall men with good jobs. This is exactly what we are looking for. Without this belief, the main point will make no sense to us. Additionally, if we negate this we get the idea that Maria is not attracted to tall men with good jobs. If that is so, then certainly she will not be attracted to John. This is the best answer.
Please forgive your logic challenged friend but when did 'logic' have anything to do with reincarnation?
Where does reincarnation fit into that lot anyway because you didn't mention it once?
 
Upvote 0

Zosimus

Non-Christian non-evolution believer
Oct 3, 2013
1,656
33
Lima, Peru
✟32,000.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Please forgive your logic challenged friend but when did 'logic' have anything to do with reincarnation?
Where does reincarnation fit into that lot anyway because you didn't mention it once?
You said, "Whether we evolve as a species makes no difference to us in the end, when we die we take no further part in anything."

This argument relies on the assumption that reincarnation does not occur.

Don't believe me? Let's try negating the assumption.

Reincarnation occurs. Therefore, whether we evolve as a species makes no difference to us in the end, when we die we take no further part in anything.

Surely you can see that the premise Reincarnation occurs completely destroys the idea that when we die, we take no further part in anything.

Go to http://www.amazon.com/Cracking-Practice-Edition-Graduate-Preparation/dp/0307945677 and buy the book. It will teach you to be more logical.
 
Upvote 0

Jan Volkes

Well-Known Member
Jun 24, 2015
1,302
231
46
UK
✟2,674.00
Gender
Female
Marital Status
Married
Politics
UK-Labour
Don't believe me? Let's try negating the assumption.

Reincarnation occurs. Therefore, whether we evolve as a species makes no difference to us in the end, when we die we take no further part in anything.
Let's try negating the assumption about Jack and the Beanstalk. Yes let's try using logic.
Jack and the Beanstalk is a true story and it really did happen.

All you are doing is perpetuating the madness by even suggesting it, we want people to live in the real world not LaLa land.
 
Upvote 0

Zosimus

Non-Christian non-evolution believer
Oct 3, 2013
1,656
33
Lima, Peru
✟32,000.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Let's try negating the assumption about Jack and the Beanstalk. Yes let's try using logic.
Jack and the Beanstalk is a true story and it really did happen.

All you are doing is perpetuating the madness by even suggesting it, we want people to live in the real world not LaLa land.
Let's try negating the assumption about Jack and the Beanstalk. Yes let's try using logic.
Jack and the Beanstalk is a true story and it really did happen.

All you are doing is perpetuating the madness by even suggesting it, we want people to live in the real world not LaLa land.
I agree. That's why I'm trying to save you from the LaLa land of bad logical arguments. This path leads to the dark side. Turn away.
 
Upvote 0