Are We Servants Of God Or Servants Of Man?, Lets put Both on the table

[DavidPresently]

See a carnal minded person would tell you a thing or two about yourself,
but a spiritual minded person would dust his feet off and keep moving.
So I'm going to keep moving, I put forth a nought scriptures and verses
to prove my point to letter whether you believe or not so, take it or leave it.


Deuteronomy 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

30:16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it

30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

30:20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Your statement about what a carnal and spiritual person would do bears false humility, and pride poorly veiled. Your quotes show that you continue to miss the point I'm making, and you erroneously view me as one disregarding and abolishing the commandments.

Concerning my telling you things to your face boldly, including what I think of your arguments and reasoning, that is not wrong or against any commandment of God. Neither is it an indicator of being carnally minded. Paul was very bold in pointing out the errors of Judaisers and those saying Gentiles needed to physically keep the letter of the OT law to be saved and right with God. He rebuked such boldly and actually exposed them as the carnal ones.

So, the question is, do you think Paul was spiritually minded and used by God to write 2/3 of the NT, or do you think Paul was carnal and false, and we should get rid of his letters from the canon?

I ask because your idea of legality goes completely contrary to his letters and rebukes of such people in his day.

Because I believe he was spiritual and a foundational Apostle (one writing the foundation of Scripture), I will continue to follow his example in rebuking those like you who try to put the saints in bondage to legalism. However, like Paul, I will continue to establish the right purpose of the law in commandments, by faith. I do not abolish the commandments as you insist on thinking and responding as if I do. Wake up.

 

[Bro.T]

Your statement about what a carnal and spiritual person would do bears false humility, and pride poorly veiled. Your quotes show that you continue to miss the point I'm making, and you erroneously view me as one disregarding and abolishing the commandments.

Concerning my telling you things to your face boldly, including what I think of your arguments and reasoning, that is not wrong or against any commandment of God. Neither is it an indicator of being carnally minded. Paul was very bold in pointing out the errors of Judaisers and those saying Gentiles needed to physically keep the letter of the OT law to be saved and right with God. He rebuked such boldly and actually exposed them as the carnal ones.

So, the question is, do you think Paul was spiritually minded and used by God to write 2/3 of the NT, or do you think Paul was carnal and false, and we should get rid of his letters from the canon?

I ask because your idea of legality goes completely contrary to his letters and rebukes of such people in his day.

Because I believe he was spiritual and a foundational Apostle (one writing the foundation of Scripture), I will continue to follow his example in rebuking those like you who try to put the saints in bondage to legalism. However, like Paul, I will continue to establish the right purpose of the law in commandments, by faith. I do not abolish the commandments as you insist on thinking and responding as if I do. Wake up.

I believe its time to move on. I understand how you feel, you have the
right to your opinion. I quote verses and scriptures, you just talk, and you cross the line, class is over.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.


Proverbs 1:22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?

 

[JerryChristian]

People today are under the impression that as long as they attend church on a regular basis that they are fulfilling their obligation when it comes to serving God. They do not even take into consideration that the day they have elected to worship the Lord is contrary to what God commanded. And when questioned on this issue they generally response with a statement such as what=s important is that you love the Lord, because God knows what is in an individual=s heart and he will judge accordingly. Evidently individuals who share in this belief must not have read the following verse. (John 14:15) If ye love me, keep my commandments. Jesus is plainly and clearly stating that one is to keep his commandments if he loves him. If one truly loves the Lord then they will demonstrate that love by obeying the word of God. You can only serve the Lord one way and that=s according to his will and by following his commandments. Look at the following verses. (Matthew 15:8) This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9) But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Jesus is pointing out the fact that it is not enough for an individual to just glorify God with their speech for even if they profess a love for God and in turn worship him contrary to his commandments then all their worship is in vain. An individuals worship shall be unproductive and fruitless if they are following doctrines based on the word of man verses following the commandments of God. And with that point in mind it is surprising how so much of what Christians practice today is contrary to the word of God. And if one studies the scriptures they will find that the teaching they receive today comes from the vain imaginations of man and not the bible. Just a small amount of research on an individuals part will show that the religious practices that are observed by Christians today come from the Roman Catholic Church and are not supported by the scriptures. Based on the following directives one can easily determine as to whether their works are of God or of man.

1) COMMANDMENT OF THE SABBATH

COMMANDMENT OF GOD

The seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord. The seventh day is the day the Lord blessed and sanctified.

(Genesis 2:3) And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it; because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

(Leviticus 23:3) Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the Lord in all your dwelling.

COMMANDMENT OF MEN

The Roman Catholic Church said the 1st day of the week is when God=s sabbath is to observed. This was placed into the doctrine of the church after Roman Emperor Constantine in 321AD instituted Sunday the 1st day of the week as the day of worship. In 336 A.D., the Roman Catholic Church officially changed the observance of Sabbath to Sunday for political and economic expediency. Since then, the original Sabbath gradually gave way to Sunday observance and the practice remains to this day. Note this change come some 300 years after the teaching of Jesus Christ who as one can tell from the following scripture observed the 7th day sabbath.

(Luke 4:16) And as he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up to read.

God never changed his sabbath day and if he had changed it he would have made it perfectly clear that a change had occurred just as he made it perfectly clear as to when the sabbath was. Man changed the observance of the sabbath day and incorporated the change into his teaching.

Romans 14:5 "One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind."</SPAN>

 

[JerryChristian]

Have you ever tried to read the Bible to see what it says about a particular subject, rather than to prove a point. Whenever you utilize Scripture to prove a point that you wish to make, you will inevitably take scripture out of context. Read Romans Chapter 14. Besides you do not even know if the sabbath that you serve today is the original sabbath as the calendars have been changed. We do not even celebrate the Jewish calendar! If you wish to be a Jew, be a real Jew. Live under the law. It will soon serve to show you that you are in need of grace!

 

[DavidPresently]

Have you ever tried to read the Bible to see what it says about a particular subject, rather than to prove a point. Whenever you utilize Scripture to prove a point that you wish to make, you will inevitably take scripture out of context. Read Romans Chapter 14. Besides you do not even know if the sabbath that you serve today is the original sabbath as the calendars have been changed. We do not even celebrate the Jewish calendar! If you wish to be a Jew, be a real Jew. Live under the law. It will soon serve to show you that you are in need of grace!

Good points!

I did extensive study with prayer about the issue of Sabbath years back and found overwhelming evidence that Saturday on the modern calendars is not the original Hebrew Sabbath, because that is not how they told time (by a pre-planned calculation calendar made up by the Romans). Their weeks and months were by the moon within a year by the sun. All children of Noah had this in common for some time until the big empire nations began to change the way time was told, as Daniel foretold.

The true ancient Hebrew Sabbath day falls on the primary phases of the moon, with all major feasts beginning the second (full moon) Sabbath. Even Philo's writings state this and show that in the time of Jesus, the Jews had not yet went to the Roman calendar for worship, but were still keeping the ancient Hebrew calendar, until the Temple was destroyed. In that latter dispersion, the Rabbinical counsels eventually switched to the Roman week and calendar for the sake of doing business more efficiently. This is actually stated in the Universal Jewish Encyclopedia.

Tanzel is not "keeping" the Law any more than anyone here. He is just caught up in self-righteous legalism right now, and we pray this be temporary and he come out of such. All true believers want to obey our Lord, but there is a right way to go about it in the new covenant, and it is not legalism of the letter, which only leads to bondage.

 

[Bro.T]

Have you ever tried to read the Bible to see what it says about a particular subject, rather than to prove a point. Whenever you utilize Scripture to prove a point that you wish to make, you will inevitably take scripture out of context. Read Romans Chapter 14. Besides you do not even know if the sabbath that you serve today is the original sabbath as the calendars have been changed. We do not even celebrate the Jewish calendar! If you wish to be a Jew, be a real Jew. Live under the law. It will soon serve to show you that you are in need of grace!

The Real Jews is still in capitvity where the Lord put them, Romans 11:25 - For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

The bible speaks of a seven day week and we still live according to this rule today. This is no accident. Past nations have even tried to shorten and lengthen God's weekly institution, but of course they failed. Man has also come up with names (after pagan gods) for the days, but it is no coincidence that each day is still known by it's perspective number (1-7). God has not allowed the days of the week to be altered over the centuries. Even during the sixteenth century when the world adopted our present calendar, the Gregorian, the days of the week did not change.

Others will say that it really doesn't matter what day you attend church. "You should worship God everyday" or "everyday is the sabbath day," they will zealously proclaim. Well, why has the world set aside Sunday as it's day of worship (there is a reason, which we will discuss later) instead of any and every day? Sure you should do good and think about God everyday, but everyday cannot be the sabbath day. God in his wisdom knew that man would be consumed with his daily activities. Therefore, he set one day aside for man to come together and worship him. The sabbath begins at sundown Friday and last until sundown Saturday. (Each day starts in the evening, instead of at midnight, "and the evening and morning were the fifth day" Genesis 1:23). The entire bible stresses that it is of utmost importance that we observe (attend church) the Lord's sabbath, the seventh (7th) day. It really does matter.​

 

[DavidPresently]

The Real Jews is still in capitvity where the Lord put them, Romans 11:25 - For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

The bible speaks of a seven day week and we still live according to this rule today. This is no accident. Past nations have even tried to shorten and lengthen God's weekly institution, but of course they failed. Man has also come up with names (after pagan gods) for the days, but it is no coincidence that each day is still known by it's perspective number (1-7). God has not allowed the days of the week to be altered over the centuries. Even during the sixteenth century when the world adopted our present calendar, the Gregorian, the days of the week did not change.

Others will say that it really doesn't matter what day you attend church. "You should worship God everyday" or "everyday is the sabbath day," they will zealously proclaim. Well, why has the world set aside Sunday as it's day of worship (there is a reason, which we will discuss later) instead of any and every day? Sure you should do good and think about God everyday, but everyday cannot be the sabbath day. God in his wisdom knew that man would be consumed with his daily activities. Therefore, he set one day aside for man to come together and worship him. The sabbath begins at sundown Friday and last until sundown Saturday. (Each day starts in the evening, instead of at midnight, "and the evening and morning were the fifth day" Genesis 1:23). The entire bible stresses that it is of utmost importance that we observe (attend church) the Lord's sabbath, the seventh (7th) day. It really does matter.​

Sure, ignore all of the proof that the modern 7 day Roman week is not identical to the ancient Hebrew 7 day week, so you can be comfortable that you are "keeping the Law." You aren't, and not just because of that. You do evil and you fall short of the standard of the Law. It will be your judge, however, since in it you place your trust.

 

[Bro.T]

Good points!

I did extensive study with prayer about the issue of Sabbath years back and found overwhelming evidence that Saturday on the modern calendars is not the original Hebrew Sabbath, because that is not how they told time (by a pre-planned calculation calendar made up by the Romans). Their weeks and months were by the moon within a year by the sun. All children of Noah had this in common for some time until the big empire nations began to change the way time was told, as Daniel foretold.

The true ancient Hebrew Sabbath day falls on the primary phases of the moon, with all major feasts beginning the second (full moon) Sabbath. Even Philo's writings state this and show that in the time of Jesus, the Jews had not yet went to the Roman calendar for worship, but were still keeping the ancient Hebrew calendar, until the Temple was destroyed. In that latter dispersion, the Rabbinical counsels eventually switched to the Roman week and calendar for the sake of doing business more efficiently. This is actually stated in the Universal Jewish Encyclopedia.

Tanzel is not "keeping" the Law any more than anyone here. He is just caught up in self-righteous legalism right now, and we pray this be temporary and he come out of such. All true believers want to obey our Lord, but there is a right way to go about it in the new covenant, and it is not legalism of the letter, which only leads to bondage.

Tanzel is not "keeping" the Law any more than anyone here. He is just caught up in self-righteous legalism right now, and we pray this be temporary and he come out of such. All true believers want to obey our Lord, but there is a right way to go about it in the new covenant, and it is not legalism of the letter, which only leads to bondage.

Get behind me satan...because in 1John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

 

[DavidPresently]

Get behind me satan...because in 1John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

I thought you were moving on?? Didn't you say you were? Keeping your word is one of the commandments in Scripture, not to falsely testify or break your vow.

I'm not Satan, but I do see through your self-righteousness. You do sin, and you do fall short of the perfection of keeping all of the commandments of the letter of the law. We all have, and that is why we need the Blood of the Lamb.

1Jn 1:8-10 AMP If we say we have no sin [refusing to admit that we are sinners], we delude and lead ourselves astray, and the Truth [which the Gospel presents] is not in us [does not dwell in our hearts]. (9) If we [freely] admit that we have sinned and confess our sins, He is faithful and just (true to His own nature and promises) and will forgive our sins [dismiss our lawlessness] and [continuously] cleanse us from all unrighteousness [everything not in conformity to His will in purpose, thought, and action]. (10) If we say (claim) we have not sinned, we contradict His Word and make Him out to be false and a liar, and His Word is not in us [the divine message of the Gospel is not in our hearts].

I believe in obeying my Lord or "keeping his commandments" as John said. What I disagree with is your view of what that means. My way does not contradict the Scripture I quoted above, nor Paul's inspired instructions for the churches. Your way does. I can admit I still fall short, though I don't want to. I still have to confess. You deny you sin and claim you are the righteous keeper of God's commandments and that is also why you think you are qualified to be everyone's judge. You are sadly mistaken sir, and if you don't wake up from your delusion you'll face the same fate the Pharisees did who didn't trust in God's grace through Christ.

 

[Bro.T]

I thought you were moving on?? Didn't you say you were? Keeping your word is one of the commandments in Scripture, not to falsely testify or break your vow.

I'm not Satan, but I do see through your self-righteousness. You do sin, and you do fall short of the perfection of keeping all of the commandments of the letter of the law. We all have, and that is why we need the Blood of the Lamb.

1Jn 1:8-10 AMP If we say we have no sin [refusing to admit that we are sinners], we delude and lead ourselves astray, and the Truth [which the Gospel presents] is not in us [does not dwell in our hearts]. (9) If we [freely] admit that we have sinned and confess our sins, He is faithful and just (true to His own nature and promises) and will forgive our sins [dismiss our lawlessness] and [continuously] cleanse us from all unrighteousness [everything not in conformity to His will in purpose, thought, and action]. (10) If we say (claim) we have not sinned, we contradict His Word and make Him out to be false and a liar, and His Word is not in us [the divine message of the Gospel is not in our hearts].

I believe in obeying my Lord or "keeping his commandments" as John said. What I disagree with is your view of what that means. My way does not contradict the Scripture I quoted above, nor Paul's inspired instructions for the churches. Your way does. I can admit I still fall short, though I don't want to. I still have to confess. You deny you sin and claim you are the righteous keeper of God's commandments and that is also why you think you are qualified to be everyone's judge. You are sadly mistaken sir, and if you don't wake up from your delusion you'll face the same fate the Pharisees did who didn't trust in God's grace through Christ.

Stick to the topic and proove what you have to say threw verses and scrpitures, thats all to it. You say you keep the commandments then confess your falling short to the Lord. Jesus is the High priest. Mean while
stick to the topic. Now if you can't do that, then I will move on. You should be able to let the Bible speak instead of all this personal conversation.

Isaiah 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

No excuses

2Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

No personal conversation, strickly Bible....prove...

 

[DavidPresently]

Stick to the topic and proove what you have to say threw verses and scrpitures, thats all to it. You say you keep the commandments then confess your falling short to the Lord. Jesus is the High priest. Mean while
stick to the topic. Now if you can't do that, then I will move on. You should be able to let the Bible speak instead of all this personal conversation.

Isaiah 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

No excuses

2Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

No personal conversation, strickly Bible....prove...

That is not how Jesus dealt with hypocrites in their self-righteousness and thinking themselves superior in lawfulness. In fact, he dealt with them much more personally and harsher than I am dealing with you.

I've already pointed out a couple of example of your hypocrisy. Another is that you think you can make something personal to me, but I must only stick to Scripture to prove a doctrinal/theological point.

Until you change this, I'll continue to point out such things here for the sake of those who might possibly otherwise be led astray by your legalism and form of godliness.

Myself and others have already quoted NT Scripture to you that contradicts your viewpoint. It is pointless to keep slinging quotes back and forth. I've done that before and it never works.

Your idea of how people should converse on these things, by quoting Scripture with chapter/verse notations, is not found in Scripture, not even the law. It is your preference. I don't believe it is your preference because you love the Word. I believe it is your preference because of religious pride. I'm not going to let that control me or tell me. I'll continue to respond as I see fit.

 

[Bro.T]

That is not how Jesus dealt with hypocrites in their self-righteousness and thinking themselves superior in lawfulness. In fact, he dealt with them much more personally and harsher than I am dealing with you.

I've already pointed out a couple of example of your hypocrisy. Another is that you think you can make something personal to me, but I must only stick to Scripture to prove a doctrinal/theological point.

Until you change this, I'll continue to point out such things here for the sake of those who might possibly otherwise be led astray by your legalism and form of godliness.

Myself and others have already quoted NT Scripture to you that contradicts your viewpoint. It is pointless to keep slinging quotes back and forth. I've done that before and it never works.

Your idea of how people should converse on these things, by quoting Scripture with chapter/verse notations, is not found in Scripture, not even the law. It is your preference. I don't believe it is your preference because you love the Word. I believe it is your preference because of religious pride. I'm not going to let that control me or tell me. I'll continue to respond as I see fit.

Isaiah 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

No excuses

2Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

No personal conversation, strickly Bible....prove...


Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

 

[ozell]

DavidPresently;51812758]That is not how Jesus dealt with hypocrites in their self-righteousness and thinking themselves superior in lawfulness. In fact, he dealt with them much more personally and harsher than I am dealing with you.

Hi David

why not put what Jesus said concerning hypocrites so we can see for ourselves if it fits Tanzel or You!

I've already pointed out a couple of example of your hypocrisy. Another is that you think you can make something personal to me, but I must only stick to Scripture to prove a doctrinal/theological point.

Until you change this, I'll continue to point out such things here for the sake of those who might possibly otherwise be led astray by your legalism and form of godliness.

where is legalism in the bible?

Myself and others have already quoted NT Scripture to you that contradicts your viewpoint. It is pointless to keep slinging quotes back and forth. I've done that before and it never works.

Your idea of how people should converse on these things, by quoting Scripture with chapter/verse notations, is not found in Scripture, not even the law. It is your preference. I don't believe it is your preference because you love the Word. I believe it is your preference because of religious pride. I'm not going to let that control me or tell me. I'll continue to respond as I see fit

The Lord had written how we are to learn and read his word

Isaiah 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:


2Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

what is the problem you have with this part of the word of God?

 

[ozell]

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

the law

Deut 8:3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.

the testimony

Mt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

THE LAW

Ps 31:5 Into thine hand I commit my spirit: thou hast redeemed me, O LORD God of truth.

THE TESTIMONY

Lk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.