Are We Overidealizing Life?

[Received]

It seems like the longer human beings live, and the more power they have over preventing death, that the more they fear death and idealize life. I think the contemporary person with a 70+ year life span is a vastly different human being than the one who lived 30+ years, in that the latter seems more connected with the idea that death (whether or not there's anything after) is a part of life and therefore nothing to be feared. There's a real saving helplessness and acceptance with our ancestors that's foreign to most people today, when the idea of welcoming death and accepting one's limits (at least well before the deathbed is a reality) seems almost crazy.

I think one of the worst things that could happen with a realized project of immortality on earth would be that this sort of anxiety about death and overidealization and attachment to life would only grow infinitely more, maybe to the point to where really living in a qualitative sense is dampened because of the extreme anxiety about the possibility of having an experience that results in death. Everyone would develop a sort of neurotic mothering instinct, hypervigilant to every scraped knee and bruised arm, and so a real appreciation for life not as a collection of years but as a type of quality would be lost. Nietzsche said the great secret to life is to live dangerously and to "build your cities on the slope of Vesuvius!". He's not promoting recklessness, but seems to have that old vein in mind of accepting death rather than dreading it by fearlessly living as a first priority.

Because that's what it seems to be about: a question of priorities. When we start focusing too much on not dying, we're not focusing on how to live.

Why else did we start dreading death with such an existential sense?

 

[Eudaimonist]

When we start focusing too much on not dying, we're not focusing on how to live.

I'm reminded of Larry Niven's SF alien race, the "Puppeteers". This was an ancient race of beings that had created such effective life extension technology that any particular individual could hope to live for a very long time. They would have spare body parts handy if they had ever been injured. They would even have soft furniture in their living space just so they would minimize their chance of injuring themselves! They "nerfed" their lives. Even with these safeguards, they would prefer to live in safety on their home planets (in a secret location) and pull the strings of other species to get their jobs done. Their leader is called the "Hindmost", meaning the one who leads from the most safety.

I can see where you are going with this speculation. I don't think that a long life and living a quality life are mutually exclusive, but certainly if living a long time becomes an obsession, there may very well be skewed priorities resulting. The solution, I think, is to see long life rather Stoically as an unexpected "gift", instead of as a focus in one's life.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Received]

I'm reminded of Larry Niven's SF alien race, the "Puppeteers". This was an ancient race of beings that had created such effective life extension technology that any particular individual could hope to live for a very long time. They would have spare body parts handy if they had ever been injured. They would even have soft furniture in their living space just so they would minimize their chance of injuring themselves! They "nerfed" their lives. Even with these safeguards, they would prefer to live in safety on their home planets (in a secret location) and pull the strings of other species to get their jobs done. Their leader is called the "Hindmost", meaning the one who leads from the most safety.

I can see where you are going with this speculation. I don't think that a long life and living a quality life are mutually exclusive, but certainly if living a long time becomes an obsession, there may very well be skewed priorities resulting. The solution, I think, is to see long life rather Stoically as an unexpected "gift", instead of as a focus in one's life.


eudaimonia,

Mark

But I don't think it's just a question of priorities. It seems like the longer life you have, the more fragile it becomes in a mortality sense, knowing that one significant scrape could lead to cancer and being robbed of long life. Compare that to a thousand years ago when life expectancy was at least half. People may have had a basic background fear of death, but because life was so much shorter and more fraught with mortality, there wasn't this sense of clinging to life like today. Maybe the best recipe for hypochondria is the promise of long life.

 

[Larniavc]

How to you substantiate that people were thinking these things about mortality many years ago?

It seems religionists thinking may have been people's response to dying young (if they had the perception that they would die young, at all).

 

[Received]

How to you substantiate that people were thinking these things about mortality many years ago?

It seems religionists thinking may have been people's response to dying young (if they had the perception that they would die young, at all).

I don't know of any scholarly sources, but I don't think it takes much for a world submerged in Christendom coupled with the omnipresence of death around them to put a lot less weight on death. Actually, we all know by reading anything over a few hundred years old how much the essence of their theology was to get to the good stuff when they died, as opposed to this life which was at most a testing ground for the real one in waiting.

 

[Larniavc]

I don't know of any scholarly sources, but I don't think it takes much for a world submerged in Christendom coupled with the omnipresence of death around them to put a lot less weight on death. Actually, we all know by reading anything over a few hundred years old how much the essence of their theology was to get to the good stuff when they died, as opposed to this life which was at most a testing ground for the real one in waiting.

But that could just as plausibly imply that people were very much thinking about death but because they were more likely to believe in a afterlife they were more able to use that to deal with the existential crisis that we all must go through.

Hamlet was left with no choice but to despair, back in the day.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Compare that to a thousand years ago when life expectancy was at least half. People may have had a basic background fear of death, but because life was so much shorter and more fraught with mortality, there wasn't this sense of clinging to life like today.

I personally would not want to return to those days. I'd prefer to make the best of ours.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[dysert]

I personally would not want to return to those days. I'd prefer to make the best of ours.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Why wouldn't you want to return to those days? Is it because you want the relatively long lifespan that we enjoy today? Isn't that the point of the OP? (Just curious)

 

[Eudaimonist]

Why wouldn't you want to return to those days? Is it because you want the relatively long lifespan that we enjoy today? Isn't that the point of the OP? (Just curious)

Yes, I do want the possibility of a long lifespan. That doesn't mean that I support being obsessive over living a long time. I think that one can legitimately value both the quality and the quantity of one's years in this life without falling into neurosis and hyper-vigilance.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Received]

I personally would not want to return to those days. I'd prefer to make the best of ours.


eudaimonia,

Mark

I wouldn't either. I think you and I and others on this board could say that because we're not part of the wave that dreads death like many.

 

[GrimKingGrim]

Um I just wanna say to the hypothetical of realized immortality (which would require the prevention of cell death to which has only been achieved by simpler micro-organisms and two multi-cellular ocean species) at that point I really would believe only a god could stop us. Imagine the possibility of some megalomaniac getting ahold of that. But I digress.

Overvaluing life? I don't know I don't think that extending our life span so far has made us so crazy about living that we'd eventually cling to it if we somehow pushed it to 90+ years average. Because judging from observation a good amount of people are "done" with life at a certain point. Reaching life goals and accomplishments and establishing a family and legacy. The latter half or quarter is more of a "job well done" for most (or should be I don't have statistics) because they come to grips with that fact that their body isn't gonna keep up with their mind forever and there's a metaphorical "stop" sign. I suspect we'll all know when we reach that stop sign and be content with what's left of living.

 

[Job8]

Why else did we start dreading death with such an existential sense?

The fear of death is nothing new (Hebrews 2:15) and may have existed ever since the Fall. The afterlife has been a reality in most religions also. But those obsessed with prolonging life on earth today are simply afraid of their own mortality, and probably shut out every thought of the afterlife. The reality which most people do not wish to face is stated in Hebrews 9:27,28: And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

So it is less a matter of "overidealizing" life on earth, and more a matter of running away from reality -- the reality of facing the Divine Judge and giving account to Him.

 

[quatona]

It seems like the longer human beings live, and the more power they have over preventing death, that the more they fear death and idealize life. I think the contemporary person with a 70+ year life span is a vastly different human being than the one who lived 30+ years, in that the latter seems more connected with the idea that death (whether or not there's anything after) is a part of life and therefore nothing to be feared.

I find that a pretty wild hypothesis. People have always feared death, it seems.

There's a real saving helplessness and acceptance with our ancestors that's foreign to most people today, when the idea of welcoming death and accepting one's limits (at least well before the deathbed is a reality) seems almost crazy.

There are people today who don´t find it crazy, and there were people yesterday who found it crazy.
Personally, I don´t find it crazy. The finiteness of my existence is a prerequisite for enjoying it fully.
Just like a movie gets a lot more attractive because we know it will have an end. Doesn´t necessarily mean, though, we have to consciously think "Oh, this will have an end!"

I think one of the worst things that could happen with a realized project of immortality on earth would be that this sort of anxiety about death and overidealization and attachment to life would only grow infinitely more, maybe to the point to where really living in a qualitative sense is dampened because of the extreme anxiety about the possibility of having an experience that results in death.

Yes, it´s almost the same as it would be in an afterlife.

Everyone would develop a sort of neurotic mothering instinct, hypervigilant to every scraped knee and bruised arm, and so a real appreciation for life not as a collection of years but as a type of quality would be lost.

Well, a "realized project of immortality on earth" would actually do away with all those fears, wouldn´t it?
Nietzsche said the great secret to life is to live dangerously and to "build your cities on the slope of Vesuvius!". He's not promoting recklessness, but seems to have that old vein in mind of accepting death rather than dreading it by fearlessly living as a first priority.

Because that's what it seems to be about: a question of priorities. When we start focusing too much on not dying, we're not focusing on how to live.

Yes. In the same way some people focus too much on beyond-ideas and their idealization.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

I look forwards to death. I can love life at times too, but the afterlife prospect is better.

 

[Eudaimonist]

But those obsessed with prolonging life on earth today are simply afraid of their own mortality, and probably shut out every thought of the afterlife.

In my experience, that's not quite true. I used to hang out with transhumanists who were very interested in life extension, even to the point of signing up for cryonic services. My impression is that:

1) They weren't afraid of their own mortality. They loved life so much they wanted more of it.
2) They didn't believe in the existence of afterlives, but they didn't "shut out every thought" of such. They were open about considering the evidence and found the existence of afterlives unconvincing.

So it is less a matter of "overidealizing" life on earth, and more a matter of running away from reality -- the reality of facing the Divine Judge and giving account to Him.

The Irony is strong with you. They would say that you were running away from reality -- the reality of the finality of death without technological intervention.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Eudaimonist]

I look forwards to death. I can love life at times too, but the afterlife prospect is better.

That is a problem with afterlife belief. It can make people pine for death.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[dysert]

That is a problem with afterlife belief. It can make people pine for death.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Doesn't have to be a problem. Having an afterlife belief could just as easily keep you detached from the evils of the world (among other things).

 

[dysert]

I wonder if it's the fear of death that gets most people or the fear of the dying process. For me it's the latter. I don't want to spend my last years as a drooling idiot sitting around waiting for my next dose of meds. And I don't want to spend my last years in great pain or sickness while fighting cancer. If I can go out instantly in my sleep or even a massive heart attach, that's the way to go.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Doesn't have to be a problem. Having an afterlife belief could just as easily keep you detached from the evils of the world (among other things).

There may be benefits.

Though I'd expect being "detached from the evils of the world" would be likely to make one pine for an afterlife in which evils don't exist.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[dysert]

There may be benefits.

Though I'd expect being "detached from the evils of the world" would be likely to make one pine for an afterlife in which evils don't exist.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Agreed. Consider me pining