Are we our brother's keeper - (Israel - Hamas Conflict)

o_mlly

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I don't see evil as a thing to be removed like a piece of furniture.

The way to change the world is through acts of goodness and kindness.


Isaiah 58:7 there is an important point I think,"............wherever you see him".
What does it help helping others who you cannot see because they are out of sight,
let alone miles and miles away when their is someone on your own street in need.

Note, there will be a little variation in text of different editions, I am taking from the Swedish, but the meaning is the same.
? Hamas members are the evildoers in plain sight on the streets of Gaza. The Palestinian people see Hamas and see the evil they do.

Let us define force as the just use of violence. Is there any situation that justifies the use of force to remove a present evil? If you are a pacifist I would respect your position, but you haven't revealed that to be so.
 
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Robban

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? Hamas members are the evildoers in plain sight on the streets of Gaza. The Palestinian people see Hamas and see the evil they do.

Let us define force as the just use of violence. Is there any situation that justifies the use of force to remove a present evil? If you are a pacifist I would respect your position, but you haven't revealed that to be so.

Cassius Clay/Mouhameed Ali was a terrific boxer but he refused to
to go to Vietnam, and did time for that.

You missed my previous post,

I live where I live because I do, these days when I go to the bus stop there are always people there, and it is similar to gathering of UN, but I always give a sign of friendship, a nod, a hi, a warm smile.

I have never made a pledge never to kill anyone, because you never know.

I may have been near in my younger days, but by the Grace of God it did not happen.

If you want to go to Gaza and play Rambo, be my guest.




































































































































? Hamas members are the evildoers in plain sight on the streets of Gaza. The Palestinian people see Hamas and see the evil they do.

Let us define force as the just use of violence. Is there any situation that justifies the use of force to remove a present evil? If you are a pacifist I would respect your position, but you haven't revealed that to be so.
 
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o_mlly

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Cassius Clay/Mouhameed Ali was a terrific boxer but he refused to
to go to Vietnam, and did time for that.

You missed my previous post,

I live where I live because I do, these days when I go to the bus stop there are always people there, and it is similar to gathering of UN, but I always give a sign of friendship, a nod, a hi, a warm smile.

I have never made a pledge never to kill anyone, because you never know.

I may have been near in my younger days, but by the Grace of God it did not happen.

If you want to go to Gaza and play Rambo, be my guest.
Sorry, but your posts do not make any sense to me. I assume English if not your first language. Thanks for the exchange.
 
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Robban

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Sorry, but your posts do not make any sense to me. I assume English if not your first language. Thanks for the exchange.
Thank you too.

Though we did not manage to change the color of the moon,
either of us. :)
 
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IceJad

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Am I my brother's keeper? I think so, but I'm not sure what that means for me regarding this issue. Give my opinion online? Pray? Fund a particular side? Volunteer to drive an ambulance in Gaza? Right now, I'll give my worthless opinion, say a prayer, and hope wise heads prevail.

Sometimes giving an opinion enables us to think and reconsider our positions. As I was creating this post I was constantly thinking and debating myself on the points I wrote down. It may feel trivial and adds little value to the conflict, yet you should see it more as self reflection. Something that benefits you. Reading what others write also helps you see new perspectives.

Everyone here knows that we can do little if anything at all to resolve this conflict. Talking about it does as much as not talking about it. Nothing physical will change about the conflict. Yet intangibly it will help you and me to sort out the feelings and mental burdens of knowing of the conflict.

Expressing what you feel about a situation allows you to release the emotional and mental tensions. Hopefully places like Christian Forums create a place to do it constructively. Rather than going to the streets yelling genocidal & racist remarks while potentially escalating it to actual violence.
 
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Stephen3141

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I find myself fascinated by the recent Israel-Hamas conflict. Truth be told I'm pretty much indifferent to the causes of both sides. My fascination isn't stemmed from any sense of injustice or act of terror but rather the responses exhibited by the individual non-participants.

Before I continue, let me set some baselines. First is yes I'm appalled by terror committed by Hamas. Second is yes I'm equally appalled by the indiscriminate retaliation by the IDF. However that is only due to the suffering of innocents not the causes that led to them. For myself the feeling of sympathy for the innocents is only momentary. Somewhere deep in my subconscious I always hear my most prominent thought: Both sides deserve each other. They have seeded their own demise with each act of revenge hidden behind a thin veil of moral sanctification. Crying foul when the very seed they so carefully nurtured bloomed.

With that out of the way, I would like to understand the compulsion of those who would throw their support for one side or the other. I use to be such a person mainly due to religious kinship. A one sided kinship. But for me as I grew, I learnt that such sense of personal kinship is derived solely from the affection of Biblically history. The side that I use to support had the "Main Character" label. This realisation didn't flipped me to unwavering support for the other either. The same realisation that severed my false kinship to one side also protected me from forming another false kinship with the other. Now I see both sides for who they are.

My type of experience I suspect might be the largest contributor to other individuals throwing their support for either sides in this conflict. However that couldn't be the only reason. Statically at least it shouldn't be the only reason (religious/ethnic kinship). I'm slightly inclined to say morality as another reason. Seeing as both sides have their own moral failings I would gander that those who's reason morality would feel hypocritical and support neither. Politics might be a good reason but that in itself makes little sense unless the specific political gain is expressed. If I support Israel or Palestinian politically what do I gain? The nation might gain something - quid pro quo. What does the individual gain politically?

Lastly why are people so insistent in supporting? Are we by our very nature compelled to support? "Am I my bother's keeper?"
Please define what you mean by "brother".
 
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partinobodycular

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Contextually I meant all of humanity. So the question is, are we responsible for other's well being?

@Stephen3141's query was pertinent, but insufficient to form an accurate answer to the question, "Am I my brother's keeper". To do that we also need to know what the petitioner means by "I". For example do they mean "I" a Christian, or "I" a human, or "I" a sentient being? Furthermore we need to know the perspective from which the question is being asked, for example, is it a moral one, a legal one, or a social one? And beyond that we also need to know what's meant by "keeper".

Yes... if you didn't realize it I'm pulling your leg. It's just that @Stephen3141 seems to get too caught up in minutiae in his threads about 'Formal Logic', and so I thought that I'd take this opportunity to get in a bit of a dig.

Sorry for disturbing anybody, but it is rather slow around here at the moment.

And just to keep this post on thread... given your definition of 'brother'... no, you're not your brother's keeper.
 
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IceJad

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@Stephen3141's query was pertinent, but insufficient to form an accurate answer to the question, "Am I my brother's keeper". To do that we also need to know what the petitioner means by "I". For example do they mean "I" a Christian, or "I" a human, or "I" a sentient being? Furthermore we need to know the perspective from which the question is being asked, for example, is it a moral one, a legal one, or a social one? And beyond that we also need to know what's meant by "keeper".

Yes... if you didn't realize it I'm pulling your leg. It's just that @Stephen3141 seems to get too caught up in minutiae in his threads about 'Formal Logic', and so I thought that I'd take this opportunity to get in a bit of a dig.

Consider my leg pulled. But if I must clarify - I'm just looking at all perspectives. You may define the question as a personal one, societal one or a Christian one. All are valid interpretations. But in terms of scope I'm less interested in legalistic perspective because unless you live in a dictatorship no nation will force you to make a choice on this issue base on law. I suppose I want to know about a person's ethical and philosophical views on it since I place this thread the forum of the same genre.

Sorry for disturbing anybody, but it is rather slow around here at the moment.

Yes it's a bit slow but then it's a good sign. People are taking time off online to do their own stuff. It is Christmas season after all.

And just to keep this post on thread... given your definition of 'brother'... no, you're not your brother's keeper.

Fascinating that this conflict alone has proven that more people think they are their brother's keeper. Of course there are degrees to this. But by large mostly everyone seems to have place their support for one side or the other.
 
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partinobodycular

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Fascinating that this conflict alone has proven that more people think they are their brother's keeper.

Personally I can't help but wonder whether people actually believe that that's true... that they're their brother's keeper. I can understand the sentiment from an intellectual perspective, but from an emotional one I have to question whether there's any true feelings of responsibility there at all. Certainly not toward everyone. It just seems rather disingenuous for people to claim that they're their brother's keeper, and yet have no emotional feelings of responsibility toward 99% of the human race. It's as if they're lying simply because they feel like they're supposed to, as if to admit to some degree of apathy makes them morally inferior somehow.

It's a question that one really has to stop and think about... as much as my heart and soul may want it to be true... am I really my brother's keeper for everybody? Or am I simply my brother's keeper for those whom God, or life, or happenstance may have been fated to place before me? If that's the case then I shall gladly be my brother's keeper, and I can only hope that for everyone else, there'll be someone there in my stead.
 
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IceJad

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Personally I can't help but wonder whether people actually believe that that's true... that they're their brother's keeper. I can understand the sentiment from an intellectual perspective, but from an emotional one I have to question whether there's any true feelings of responsibility there at all. Certainly not toward everyone. It just seems rather disingenuous for people to claim that they're their brother's keeper, and yet have no emotional feelings of responsibility toward 99% of the human race. It's as if they're lying simply because they feel like they're supposed to, as if to admit to some degree of apathy makes them morally inferior somehow.

As of late I'm beginning to form another opinion about the supporters. Base on my observation the level of rabidness displayed doesn't fit well in my initial reasoning of kindship. Where people support the side they felt an emotional kindred to. Then there is the reasoning of morality which also doesn't exactly fit nicely into the displays shown. Because comparable events elsewhere don't illicit the same level of rabidness that's bordering vitriolic. That is not to say there are no people who place their support base on these two reasonings alone. It is just the numbers and intensity don't add up.

So I opine that there is another element in combination to the earlier reasons at play here. And that is hatred. With this new element things started to fit more tightly into what I observed. Like why so many people are heated to support a group of people yet have little interest with another group of people who share the same common hardship - in this case war & arm conflict.

It is because the other groups of people doesn't have the same antagonist as their supported group. The hatred towards the perceived antagonist amplifies the kindship reasoning and also brings about the level of vitriol observed. Without the same antagonist, the other groups don't enjoy the same level of rabid support. Same goes for the morality reasoning. Where we can only observe rabid support when there is hatred towards the antagonist group. The same kind of rabid support will not be seen when the same antagonist group is not present in another similar conflict elsewhere.

Humans are contradictory & hypocritical creatures by nature I suppose. Well this is just my hypothesis. I could be wrong but at this point it's my Occom's razor.

It's a question that one really has to stop and think about... as much as my heart and soul may want it to be true... am I really my brother's keeper for everybody? Or am I simply my brother's keeper for those whom God, or life, or happenstance may have been fated to place before me? If that's the case then I shall gladly be my brother's keeper, and I can only hope that for everyone else, there'll be someone there in my stead.

If we are honest with ourselves, we would know that none of us are truly capable of unbias empathy. People who are in close contact with us will naturally be cared for more. This genuine intimacy is very much built over time and the many interactions between us. Hence we find it easier to be their keeper. The same can't be applied to strangers even if they are objectively worst off. While it is not impossible to care or have a feeling of responsibility for strangers, majority of the time it will not be on the same level as the people we are close to.
 
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partinobodycular

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As of late I'm beginning to form another opinion about the supporters. Base on my observation the level of rabidness displayed doesn't fit well in my initial reasoning of kindship. Where people support the side they felt an emotional kindred to. Then there is the reasoning of morality which also doesn't exactly fit nicely into the displays shown. Because comparable events elsewhere don't illicit the same level of rabidness that's bordering vitriolic. That is not to say there are no people who place their support base on these two reasonings alone. It is just the numbers and intensity don't add up.

So I opine that there is another element in combination to the earlier reasons at play here. And that is hatred. With this new element things started to fit more tightly into what I observed. Like why so many people are heated to support a group of people yet have little interest with another group of people who share the same common hardship - in this case war & arm conflict.

It is because the other groups of people doesn't have the same antagonist as their supported group. The hatred towards the perceived antagonist amplifies the kindship reasoning and also brings about the level of vitriol observed. Without the same antagonist, the other groups don't enjoy the same level of rabid support. Same goes for the morality reasoning. Where we can only observe rabid support when there is hatred towards the antagonist group. The same kind of rabid support will not be seen when the same antagonist group is not present in another similar conflict elsewhere.

I certainly can't disagree with you, but I also can't help but wonder if this isn't a case where we've allowed the most fervent and vitriolic among us to drive the public discourse, and with it both the perception of human acrimony and the course of human actions. Part of me wants to believe that the majority of people are rational and levelheaded. The fact that the Israel-Hamas war hasn't expanded further at least gives me some hope that this is indeed the case. It could've easily spiraled into something much worse.

I realize that sometimes optimism is hard to justify through times of seemingly rampant turmoil. But if the levelheaded among us will simply remain so, then this too shall pass. It's just human nature, some of us are highly emotional and impassioned beings, prone to overreacting, and some of us aren't. The hope is that the better reasoning of the levelheaded people will eventually mollify the rabidity of the fervent people. Or we'll all die in the process. Either way it should be quite entertaining, and not anything to be overly concerned about... life goes on.

Yes the world is a chaotic, violent, and ungodly place, but there's nothing wrong with that. It's just people being people. They are the way they are, because life has to find a way to carry on, and that doesn't always involve sunshine and Mary Poppins. Still it's an amazing thing, and the 'better' of us will hopefully outlast the 'worse' of us... whatever that means, and we'll eventually look back on this as just life doing life.

But what this means for me here and now is that I can accept people for what they are... they're just people... doing the types of things that people have always done, seemingly in vastly more egregious ways, but not really. In the meantime, you do you... I'll do me... and we'll let the other guy do the other guy... and then tomorrow we'll get up and do it again, until the day comes when we don't get up anymore. Then hopefully we get a thumbs up from the Big Guy and a slap on the back for a job well done.

And voila... we didn't kill everybody. :oldthumbsup:

If we are honest with ourselves, we would know that none of us are truly capable of unbias empathy.

Ehhhhh, I don't know, I'm pretty darn close. When I was younger I used to spend a lot of time downtown, where business people and professionals intermingled with homeless people, and drug addicts. After a while you come to realize that they're all just people trying to get from one day to the next. I could use some 'holier than thou' principles to judge this person vs that person, but I really didn't have the right to do that. I was just somebody sitting there watching... with no God given right to judge anybody.

So you learn to accept them... all of them. And better or worse barely matters... being human matters... and the words "the least of these' matter. Now you may be right and none of us are truly capable of unbiased empathy, but we can hope that we are, and we can try to be.

The first step is to realize that people are just people. Some of them are kind, and generous, and forgiving, and compassionate... and some them aren't... some of them are lost, and scared, and angry, and selfish... but they're still just people. In the end what matters isn't what they do, what matters is what you do. And as Micah 6:8 says, "Do justly, love mercy, and walk humbly with thy God."

Well that was certainly preachy... sorry.
 
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timothyu

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When I was younger I used to spend a lot of time downtown, where business people and professionals intermingled with homeless people, and drug addicts. After a while you come to realize that they're all just people trying to get from one day to the next.
That also applies to the third option, the violent who oppress or take advantage of both, including you the casual observer.
 
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partinobodycular

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That also applies to the third option, the violent who oppress or take advantage of both, including you the casual observer.

You're right, it does apply to them as well... they're just people being people. It's not as if I'm fine with people being people so long as it doesn't affect me, of course it's going to affect me, and sometimes quite profoundly. And I'm going to grieve, and suffer, and wonder how people can be so cruel. But I also realize that the same thing that allows one person to be cruel to Jewish festival goers, allows another person to be cruel to a child in Gaza, and yet another to be cruel to someone who simply had the misfortune of being born different than them. As difficult as it is to accept, people do unspeakable things because life is hard, fortune isn't fair, and too many, seem to care too much about some things, and too little about others. If I could change that I would, but I can't. That's life... that's people.

So children die in Gaza, and Israel, and Detroit and I may be moved by it and I may not... but I try to keep in mind, that as sad as these things may be, it's just people being people, and life being life. And it's not my job to decide which of them are worthy of forgiveness, and which of them aren't. I'll leave that task to someone better qualified. It's my job to do justly, love mercy, and walk humbly with my God. It's not a job that I'm perfect at, but I try.
 
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