Are we our brother's keeper - (Israel - Hamas Conflict)

[IceJad]

I find myself fascinated by the recent Israel-Hamas conflict. Truth be told I'm pretty much indifferent to the causes of both sides. My fascination isn't stemmed from any sense of injustice or act of terror but rather the responses exhibited by the individual non-participants.

Before I continue, let me set some baselines. First is yes I'm appalled by terror committed by Hamas. Second is yes I'm equally appalled by the indiscriminate retaliation by the IDF. However that is only due to the suffering of innocents not the causes that led to them. For myself the feeling of sympathy for the innocents is only momentary. Somewhere deep in my subconscious I always hear my most prominent thought: Both sides deserve each other. They have seeded their own demise with each act of revenge hidden behind a thin veil of moral sanctification. Crying foul when the very seed they so carefully nurtured bloomed.

With that out of the way, I would like to understand the compulsion of those who would throw their support for one side or the other. I use to be such a person mainly due to religious kinship. A one sided kinship. But for me as I grew, I learnt that such sense of personal kinship is derived solely from the affection of Biblically history. The side that I use to support had the "Main Character" label. This realisation didn't flipped me to unwavering support for the other either. The same realisation that severed my false kinship to one side also protected me from forming another false kinship with the other. Now I see both sides for who they are.

My type of experience I suspect might be the largest contributor to other individuals throwing their support for either sides in this conflict. However that couldn't be the only reason. Statically at least it shouldn't be the only reason (religious/ethnic kinship). I'm slightly inclined to say morality as another reason. Seeing as both sides have their own moral failings I would gander that those who's reason morality would feel hypocritical and support neither. Politics might be a good reason but that in itself makes little sense unless the specific political gain is expressed. If I support Israel or Palestinian politically what do I gain? The nation might gain something - quid pro quo. What does the individual gain politically?

Lastly why are people so insistent in supporting? Are we by our very nature compelled to support? "Am I my bother's keeper?"

 

[timothyu]

All are at fault for following the same meaningless will of man throughout history and thinking they can solve our own faults by using the very same faults to solve them.

Did not God cast us into this asylum to learn that very fact from the consequences of our actions, hence with that knowledge leading to repentance and changing from our self serving ways to instead following His will? Why are humans in general not just crying out and saying we can't fix this because of who we all are? We're useless and have no idea how to handle the knowledge gained in the Garden, Humility must come at some point or God will not interfere.

 

[IceJad]

All are at fault for following the same meaningless will of man throughout history and thinking they can solve our own faults by using the very same faults to solve them.

In a way the will of man is what makes us special theologically speaking. We alone have the capacity to charter our own cause because God gave us free will. In us alone God created in His image unbeholden to any form of authority. This ability to choose has from the time of Adam & Eve led to much good as evil to befall all humanity. I don't really believe that the will of man is totally meaningless. However let's us not get too theological about it as not everyone here is religious.

But I do agree that all lot of people think that they can solve an injustice (fault) by committing the very same injustice (fault). They by their virtues alone sanctifies the act of injustice. Injustice is made justified because it was carried out by them not others. A ridiculous notion but a very common notion you can observe in this conflict.

Did not God cast us into this asylum to learn that very fact from the consequences of our actions, hence with that knowledge leading to repentance and changing from our self serving ways to instead following His will? Why are humans in general not just crying out and saying we can't fix this because of who we all are? We're useless and have no idea how to handle the knowledge gained in the Garden, Humility must come at some point or God will not interfere.

As far as I can at least observe at the surface level, people supporting their preferred side do so out of religious/ethnic kinship, moral principle (flawed perception of morality at least) or political. From the interviews in the news those seems to be the only reasons that you can safely derive. I know what is in the news are not indicative of all people but the numbers are not negligible either.

I wonder if there are any deeper more nuance reasons beside bias. Or the people are just that shallow - I support because I'm bias.

Which I suspect that bias is always the main motivator.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I find myself fascinated by the recent Israel-Hamas conflict. Truth be told I'm pretty much indifferent to the causes of both sides. My fascination isn't stemmed from any sense of injustice or act of terror but rather the responses exhibited by the individual non-participants.

Before I continue, let me set some baselines. First is yes I'm appalled by terror committed by Hamas. Second is yes I'm equally appalled by the indiscriminate retaliation by the IDF. However that is only due to the suffering of innocents not the causes that led to them. For myself the feeling of sympathy for the innocents is only momentary. Somewhere deep in my subconscious I always hear my most prominent thought: Both sides deserve each other. They have seeded their own demise with each act of revenge hidden behind a thin veil of moral sanctification. Crying foul when the very seed they so carefully nurtured bloomed.

With that out of the way, I would like to understand the compulsion of those who would throw their support for one side or the other. I use to be such a person mainly due to religious kinship. A one sided kinship. But for me as I grew, I learnt that such sense of personal kinship is derived solely from the affection of Biblically history. The side that I use to support had the "Main Character" label. This realisation didn't flipped me to unwavering support for the other either. The same realisation that severed my false kinship to one side also protected me from forming another false kinship with the other. Now I see both sides for who they are.

My type of experience I suspect might be the largest contributor to other individuals throwing their support for either sides in this conflict. However that couldn't be the only reason. Statically at least it shouldn't be the only reason (religious/ethnic kinship). I'm slightly inclined to say morality as another reason. Seeing as both sides have their own moral failings I would gander that those who's reason morality would feel hypocritical and support neither. Politics might be a good reason but that in itself makes little sense unless the specific political gain is expressed. If I support Israel or Palestinian politically what do I gain? The nation might gain something - quid pro quo. What does the individual gain politically?

Lastly why are people so insistent in supporting? Are we by our very nature compelled to support? "Am I my bother's keeper?"

While there is a general blame that can be applied to both sides, Hamas started this one, and Israel does need to put an end to it.

While there's innocents involved, those same innocents are the ones who put a terrorist organization (and no matter how you slice it they did) in charge of governing their country - and when you support or even allow that it always comes with a price, and war is one of those prices.

The idea that anyone can go to war without innocents ever dying is ludicrous - and it's not like Hamas didn't specifically go after innocents from the start, so I'm not that worried about unintentional casualties that include innocent Palestinians.

The fight is against an evil that needs to be ended. Period.

That said, Israel has a treaty with the US and we must stand with that treaty, which means supporting Israel and if that's too much for us (wars on too many fronts) then we need to withdraw any and all aid from Ukraine in order to assist Israel. We don't have any treaty with Ukraine.

 

[IceJad]

While there is a general blame that can be applied to both sides, Hamas started this one, and Israel does need to put an end to it.

While there's innocents involved, those same innocents are the ones who put a terrorist organization (and no matter how you slice it they did) in charge of governing their country - and when you support or even allow that it always comes with a price, and war is one of those prices.

The idea that anyone can go to war without innocents ever dying is ludicrous - and it's not like Hamas didn't specifically go after innocents from the start, so I'm not that worried about unintentional casualties that include innocent Palestinians.

The fight is against an evil that needs to be ended. Period.

Unfortunately what you say here isn't unique, as it has been said many times in all the interviews I had seen. I don't really want to turn this thread into who is right or who is wrong. But I'll leave a nugget of thought to ponder. Cause and effect. Yes Hamas is a terrorist group and didn't grow out of nothing. If they enjoy such strong support from the Gazans there must be a reason. Why Fatah lost in Gaza? And I believe the reason is not purely they wanted to be evil for evil sake.

Rather I'm looking for the reason behind such individual support for either sides in this conflict (not just Israel alone). While I don't want to assume your support, I can categorized the response as a moral reason - the right to correct an injustice done. So the next question comes is once the Hamas injustice has been cleared will it then turn back and clear the injustice done by the Israeli government/settlers? Vice versa if the support is for Hamas.

If moral reason is the motivator shouldn't that motivator beholden the individual to support morality to its logical end? Where all injustice is made clear? To stop right after this conflict would only indicate bias justice. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you're. I'm just trying to understand the though process of the people lining the streets yelling at each other.

That said, Israel has a treaty with the US and we must stand with that treaty, which means supporting Israel and if that's too much for us (wars on too many fronts) then we need to withdraw any and all aid from Ukraine in order to assist Israel. We don't have any treaty with Ukraine.

Something that displeases me about US foreign policies. Not so much that such policy exist but rather how US portrays such policies - in the framework of righteousness. The US supports certain self-determination like Kosovo, Bosnia and Herzegovina but not places like Nagorno-Karabakh, Republika Srpska, Tibet or Taiwan (still holding on to one-China policy). The US is not alone in acting as such. However this is not a political thread so I'll stop short.

 

[timothyu]

So the next question comes is once the Hamas injustice has been cleared will it then turn back and clear the injustice done by the Israeli government/settlers? Vice versa if the support is for Hamas.

Does the yearly result of international football do the same or do they take the victory until next time. It's man's limited ability to see there are more than two sides in an issue. Theyve been taught since childhood to take sides and there is only one winner.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Unfortunately what you say here isn't unique, as it has been said many times in all the interviews I had seen. I don't really want to turn this thread into who is right or who is wrong. But I'll leave a nugget of thought to ponder. Cause and effect. Yes Hamas is a terrorist group and didn't grow out of nothing. If they enjoy such strong support from the Gazans there must be a reason. Why Fatah lost in Gaza? And I believe the reason is not purely they wanted to be evil for evil sake.

Rather I'm looking for the reason behind such individual support for either sides in this conflict (not just Israel alone). While I don't want to assume your support, I can categorized the response as a moral reason - the right to correct an injustice done. So the next question comes is once the Hamas injustice has been cleared will it then turn back and clear the injustice done by the Israeli government/settlers? Vice versa if the support is for Hamas.

If moral reason is the motivator shouldn't that motivator beholden the individual to support morality to its logical end? Where all injustice is made clear? To stop right after this conflict would only indicate bias justice. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you're. I'm just trying to understand the though process of the people lining the streets yelling at each other.



Something that displeases me about US foreign policies. Not so much that such policy exist but rather how US portrays such policies - in the framework of righteousness. The US supports certain self-determination like Kosovo, Bosnia and Herzegovina but not places like Nagorno-Karabakh, Republika Srpska, Tibet or Taiwan (still holding on to one-China policy). The US is not alone in acting as such. However this is not a political thread so I'll stop short.

Hamas is supported in Gaza because militant Islam is taught in Gaza. Teach something more moderate and you'd get people supporting a more moderate government.

There's no separation between Islam the religion and Islam the politics.

Therefore, you either need a multi-faith government (a secular/Islamic combination or a Christian/Islamic government), or you need a more moderate form of Islam being taught from birth. Something consistent has to always be present to balance the more militant views.

That's just the truth; and before I was Christian I was Muslim. These are the things I see from my own perspective.

As far as the US honoring long standing treaties, that's an emotionless fact of life.

We can withdraw from treaties but we CANNOT do so mid-conflict. This is why we have to be very careful about what treaties we enter ourselves into.

We need treaties, they hold others to their word in matters of trade and more, plus they often benefit us too.

However, if we say "oh we have a treaty and you need us, but we don't agree this time so your on your own". We can't do that because then no one on earth would be able to trust our word again. No more happy trade etc agreements for us.

If you just want to help those who you think deserve it at the time, (which is cool too) you don't make defense pacts with anyone in the first place.

In this particular instance, we simply cannot back out regardless of how we may view the war.

 

[biblelesson]

To know the history of a country or countries can give us the real reason behind why there might be a rising up against another.

A Threshold Crossed

The 213-page report, “A Threshold Crossed: Israeli Authorities and the Crimes of Apartheid and Persecution,” examines Israel’s treatment of Palestinians. It presents the present-day reality of a single authority, the Israeli government, ruling primarily over the area between the Jordan River and...

www.hrw.org

Israel's apartheid against Palestinians

Palestinians are systematically subjected to home demolitions and forced evictions, and live in constant fear of losing their homes. For more than 73 years, Israel has been forcibly displacing entire Palestinian communities. Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians’ homes have been demolished...

www.amnesty.org

Why the Palestinian group Hamas launched an attack on Israel? All to know

Hundreds killed as Israel bombards Gaza after Hamas launched surprise attack by land, air and sea.

www.aljazeera.com

Israel’s occupation of Palestinian Territory is ‘apartheid’: UN rights expert

Calling on the international community to accept and adopt the recent findings in his report, an independent human rights expert said on Friday that “apartheid is being practiced by Israel in the occupied Palestinian territory”.

news.un.org

Apartheid against any nation is an atrocity, such as South Africa.

The End of Apartheid

The End of Apartheid

2001-2009.state.gov

A history of Apartheid in South Africa | South African History Online

 

[o_mlly]

The fight is against an evil that needs to be ended. Period.

We are all responsible to some degree to remove the evil that is in our midst. The evil of Hamas is located in Gaza. To what extent are the Palestinians residing in Gaza responsible to remove Hamas' political power in their region?

I see a parallel between the Palestinians residing in Gaza now and the German peoples in WWII.
In the 1930's, the German people allowed a criminal organization to come to political power and, more importantly, remain in power after declaring policies of ethic annihilation targeting the Jews (among other undesirables). So too did the Palestinian people of Gaza allow Hamas to come to power and, after Hamas declared the annihilation of the Jews as its governmental policy, allowed Hamas to remain in power.

Do not the Palestinian people of Gaza have a responsibility to try to remove the criminal organization of Hamas from political power? Will doing so be difficult? Yes, political revolts against tyrants are always difficult and dangerous. Many would die.

Professor Robert Gellately, in his book Backing Hitler, makes the case that the German people knew of Hitler's atrocities but chose not to act as they benefited from other Nazi policies, most importantly the unilateral canceling of the burdensome reparations imposed by the Treaty of Versailles and the restoration of German pride. Do some, if not most, of the Palestinian people favor Hamas' policy because they would benefit if Israel were annihilated and so choose not to act against the rule of their "benevolent" tyrants?

History holds the German people of the 1940's at least partially responsible for Nazi's atrocities because the people knew and did not try to remove the Nazi's from power. The Palestinian people of Gaza know the evil that Hamas does. To what extent does moral blame fall upon the Gaza Palestinians for not acting to remove the evil of Hamas from political power? The failure of the Palestinian people in Gaza to at least attempt to remove Hamas’ political power makes them complicit in the evil and diminishes their claim of innocence.

 

[Robban]

We are all responsible to some degree to remove the evil that is in our midst. The evil of Hamas is located in Gaza. To what extent are the Palestinians residing in Gaza responsible to remove Hamas' political power in their region?

I see a parallel between the Palestinians residing in Gaza now and the German peoples in WWII.
In the 1930's, the German people allowed a criminal organization to come to political power and, more importantly, remain in power after declaring policies of ethic annihilation targeting the Jews (among other undesirables). So too did the Palestinian people of Gaza allow Hamas to come to power and, after Hamas declared the annihilation of the Jews as its governmental policy, allowed Hamas to remain in power.

Do not the Palestinian people of Gaza have a responsibility to try to remove the criminal organization of Hamas from political power? Will doing so be difficult? Yes, political revolts against tyrants are always difficult and dangerous. Many would die.

Professor Robert Gellately, in his book Backing Hitler, makes the case that the German people knew of Hitler's atrocities but chose not to act as they benefited from other Nazi policies, most importantly the unilateral canceling of the burdensome reparations imposed by the Treaty of Versailles and the restoration of German pride. Do some, if not most, of the Palestinian people favor Hamas' policy because they would benefit if Israel were annihilated and so choose not to act against the rule of their "benevolent" tyrants?

History holds the German people of the 1940's at least partially responsible for Nazi's atrocities because the people knew and did not try to remove the Nazi's from power. The Palestinian people of Gaza know the evil that Hamas does. To what extent does moral blame fall upon the Gaza Palestinians for not acting to remove the evil of Hamas from political power? The failure of the Palestinian people in Gaza to at least attempt to remove Hamas’ political power makes them complicit in the evil and diminishes their claim of innocence.

There were many Germans who were against National Socialism.

Social Democrats, Communists for example,

they were put into camps or just dissapeared.

One estimation is 800,000 met that fate.

The Nazi ideology was race purity, and especially their propaganda minister knew what buttons to push.

 

[Robban]

There were many Germans who were against National Socialism.

Social Democrats, Communists for example,

they were put into camps or just dissapeared.

One estimation is 800,000 met that fate.

The Nazi ideology was race purity, and especially their propaganda minister knew what buttons to push.

:

 

[timothyu]

The Nazi ideology was race purity, and especially their propaganda minister knew what buttons to push.

How is that any different from the self serving build back better movement today where any speech not of the official narrative is called false/conspiracy and deemed impure?

 

[Robban]

How is that any different from the self serving build back better movement today where any speech not of the official narrative is called false/conspiracy and deemed impure?

I don't know what build back better is, I do not engage in politics.

I know a little of the man who promised a thousand year reich
that lasted twelve years.

And things surrounding the whole fiasko.

 

[timothyu]

Each ideology learns and strengthens built upon the past

 

[public hermit]

I find myself fascinated by the recent Israel-Hamas conflict. Truth be told I'm pretty much indifferent to the causes of both sides. My fascination isn't stemmed from any sense of injustice or act of terror but rather the responses exhibited by the individual non-participants.

Before I continue, let me set some baselines. First is yes I'm appalled by terror committed by Hamas. Second is yes I'm equally appalled by the indiscriminate retaliation by the IDF. However that is only due to the suffering of innocents not the causes that led to them. For myself the feeling of sympathy for the innocents is only momentary. Somewhere deep in my subconscious I always hear my most prominent thought: Both sides deserve each other. They have seeded their own demise with each act of revenge hidden behind a thin veil of moral sanctification. Crying foul when the very seed they so carefully nurtured bloomed.

With that out of the way, I would like to understand the compulsion of those who would throw their support for one side or the other. I use to be such a person mainly due to religious kinship. A one sided kinship. But for me as I grew, I learnt that such sense of personal kinship is derived solely from the affection of Biblically history. The side that I use to support had the "Main Character" label. This realisation didn't flipped me to unwavering support for the other either. The same realisation that severed my false kinship to one side also protected me from forming another false kinship with the other. Now I see both sides for who they are.

My type of experience I suspect might be the largest contributor to other individuals throwing their support for either sides in this conflict. However that couldn't be the only reason. Statically at least it shouldn't be the only reason (religious/ethnic kinship). I'm slightly inclined to say morality as another reason. Seeing as both sides have their own moral failings I would gander that those who's reason morality would feel hypocritical and support neither. Politics might be a good reason but that in itself makes little sense unless the specific political gain is expressed. If I support Israel or Palestinian politically what do I gain? The nation might gain something - quid pro quo. What does the individual gain politically?

Lastly why are people so insistent in supporting? Are we by our very nature compelled to support? "Am I my bother's keeper?"

I find it hard to get behind one side because both sides have done horrendous things; although, Israel's response is disproportionate at this point. As far as support goes, I think by nature we support what seems good to us. Pure indifference is hard to pull off, but it might be nice if more could. For whatever an opinion's worth, I support peace in the form of two states. I don't know if that's possible. You would think they'd be tired of the mutual slaughter.

I just watched this Frontline from 2002. There have been extremists on both sides that want nothing but the destruction of the other. I don't know. The vast majority on both sides need to want peace even if it means sacrifice.

Am I my brother's keeper? I think so, but I'm not sure what that means for me regarding this issue. Give my opinion online? Pray? Fund a particular side? Volunteer to drive an ambulance in Gaza? Right now, I'll give my worthless opinion, say a prayer, and hope wise heads prevail.

 

[o_mlly]

There were many Germans who were against National Socialism.

Yes. Some in the German Resistance opposed the Nazis.

But the issue raised is ought the Gaza Palestinians forcefully oppose Hamas. Does the moral obligation to remove evil fall most heavily on those proximate to that evil and, who were instrumental in its existence?

 

[Robban]

..

Yes. Some in the German Resistance opposed the Nazis.

But the issue raised is ought the Gaza Palestinians forcefully oppose Hamas. Does the moral obligation to remove evil fall most heavily on those proximate to that evil and, who were instrumental in its existence?

Yes. Some in the German Resistance opposed the Nazis.

But the issue raised is ought the Gaza Palestinians forcefully oppose Hamas. Does the moral obligation to remove evil fall most heavily on those proximate to that evil and, who were instrumental in its existence?

You wrote you saw a paralell with what is happening in Gaza now and the German people in ww2.

You also wrote,
Do some, if not most of Palestinian people favor Hamas'policy
because they would benefit.......

I do not know because there is too wide a difference between
between the two.(scenarios)

Remember the assasination attempt on Hitler?

It is was not by some ragtag group of resistance fighters.

So are all the pro Palestinian demonstrations really pro Hamas?

I do not know, how could I.

 

[timothyu]

The vast majority on both sides need to want peace even if it means sacrifice.

Both sides need to crack down on their radical elements but of course that is unlikely. I'm sure both elements are calling their actions peaceful protests and their rights.

 

[o_mlly]

You wrote you saw a paralell with what is happening in Gaza now and the German people in ww2.

You also wrote,
Do some, if not most of Palestinian people favor Hamas'policy
because they would benefit.......

I do not know because there is too wide a difference between
between the two.(scenarios)

Remember the assasination attempt on Hitler?

It is was not by some ragtag group of resistance fighters.

So are all the pro Palestinian demonstrations really pro Hamas?

I do not know, how could I.

We disagree on the similarity. Leaving aside for the moment that there is no Gaza Palestinian organization calling themselves the "Hamas Resistance", let's make the question hypothetical.

Does the moral obligation to remove evil fall most heavily on those proximate to that evil and, who were instrumental to its coming into existence?

 

[Robban]

We disagree on the similarity. Leaving aside for the moment that there is no Gaza Palestinian organization calling themselves the "Hamas Resistance", let's make the question hypothetical.

Does the moral obligation to remove evil fall most heavily on those proximate to that evil and, who were instrumental to its coming into existence?

I don't see evil as a thing to be removed like a piece of furniture.

The way to change the world is through acts of goodness and kindness.


Isaiah 58:7 there is an important point I think,"............wherever you see him".
What does it help helping others who you cannot see because they are out of sight,
let alone miles and miles away when their is someone on your own street in need.

Note, there will be a little variation in text of different editions, I am taking from the Swedish, but the meaning is the same.