Do any theistic evolutionists here have an opinion as to whether we current humans are the final product of biological evolution? Why or why not?
-
Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
Are We It?
- Thread starter Chesterton
- Start date
- Status
As long as time exists and as long humans aren't extinct, humans will change.
There is no final product.
There is no final product.
Upvote
0
juvenissun
... and God saw that it was good.
- Apr 5, 2007
- 25,452
- 805
- 73
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Baptist
- Marital Status
- Married
Upvote
0
Yes, time is the key, but for a TE, God is still sovereign, and therefore in control of time and environment. He could cause time to end whenever He chooses, or let the universe run a natural course, right? Whatever life forms exist at the end of this universe will have been final products. And a theist is not a deist, so TEs believe humans were intended to be. Does anyone think something different from us is ultimately intended?
Upvote
0
Wiccan_Child
Contributor
- Mar 21, 2005
- 19,419
- 673
- Faith
- Atheist
- Marital Status
- In Relationship
- Politics
- UK-Liberal-Democrats
Huh, interesting. What is the typical interpretation of this verse?
Actually, the full verse is:
Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
If this is a reference to theistic evolution (a stretch, but meh), does this not imply that we are evolving into God? And God made man in his image, in the image of God he made him...
Upvote
0
Assyrian
Basically pulling an Obama (Thanks Calminian!)
OK a bit tongue in cheek, but there is a serious point. The verse is talking about the resurrection and the transformation of our physical bodies into something much greater. It is not about evolution at all unless you are a TE of the Teilhard De Chardin strain.
However, there is a creationist argument that humanity is the pinnacle of God creation, therefore the human race can't still be evolving as science tells us. But what this verse does tell us from a biblical p.o.v. is that the human race is not it. If homo sapiens sapiens is not God's ultimate plan, then there I see no problem with the human race continuing its slow biological evolution in the meantime. A little bit of adaptation to a high fat, cholestrol and salt diet would be no harm. Roll on the ApoA1 Milano gene, we could all use one of those.
Incidentally, the verse also contradicts the idea that the resurrection is simply a return to factory settings and we will all be like Adam and Eve again.
However, there is a creationist argument that humanity is the pinnacle of God creation, therefore the human race can't still be evolving as science tells us. But what this verse does tell us from a biblical p.o.v. is that the human race is not it. If homo sapiens sapiens is not God's ultimate plan, then there I see no problem with the human race continuing its slow biological evolution in the meantime. A little bit of adaptation to a high fat, cholestrol and salt diet would be no harm. Roll on the ApoA1 Milano gene, we could all use one of those.
Incidentally, the verse also contradicts the idea that the resurrection is simply a return to factory settings and we will all be like Adam and Eve again.
Upvote
0
Assyrian
Basically pulling an Obama (Thanks Calminian!)
OK a bit tongue in cheek, but there is a serious point. The verse is talking about the resurrection and the transformation of our physical bodies into something much greater. It is not about evolution at all (unless you are a TE of the Teilhard De Chardin strain).
However, there is a creationist argument that humanity is the pinnacle of God creation, therefore the human race can't still be evolving as science tells us. But what this verse does tell us from a biblical p.o.v. is that the human race is not it. If homo sapiens sapiens is not God's ultimate plan, then there I see no problem with the human race continuing its slow biological evolution in the meantime. A little bit of adaptation to a high fat, cholestrol and salt diet would be no harm. Roll on the ApoA1 Milano gene, we could all use one of those.
Incidentally, the verse also contradicts the idea that the resurrection is simply a return to factory settings and we will all be like Adam and Eve again.
However, there is a creationist argument that humanity is the pinnacle of God creation, therefore the human race can't still be evolving as science tells us. But what this verse does tell us from a biblical p.o.v. is that the human race is not it. If homo sapiens sapiens is not God's ultimate plan, then there I see no problem with the human race continuing its slow biological evolution in the meantime. A little bit of adaptation to a high fat, cholestrol and salt diet would be no harm. Roll on the ApoA1 Milano gene, we could all use one of those.
Incidentally, the verse also contradicts the idea that the resurrection is simply a return to factory settings and we will all be like Adam and Eve again.
Upvote
0
Im sure the typical interpretation has what we will be referring to our existence in heaven. The we refers to each individual Christian, not to the human species as a whole.
Christ, quoting scripture, said to men Ye are gods. That God wishes to eventually make us into things more like Him is traditional Christian teaching. But Wiccan, you probably already knew someone would want to correct your typing we are to be made gods, not God.
I wasnt thinking of it in the OP, but now Im reminded of the final chapter of Mere Christianity -The New Men. Lewis writes of voluntary acceptance of Christ as the final step of evolution. Although Im not sure he means it concretely, I think its more a poetical comparison.
P.S. Does Obama have the British liberal pagan vote? Please form a 527 group and publicize it.
Christ, quoting scripture, said to men Ye are gods. That God wishes to eventually make us into things more like Him is traditional Christian teaching. But Wiccan, you probably already knew someone would want to correct your typing we are to be made gods, not God.
I wasnt thinking of it in the OP, but now Im reminded of the final chapter of Mere Christianity -The New Men. Lewis writes of voluntary acceptance of Christ as the final step of evolution. Although Im not sure he means it concretely, I think its more a poetical comparison.
P.S. Does Obama have the British liberal pagan vote? Please form a 527 group and publicize it.
Upvote
0
It looks like others have answered, but let me answer anyway.
I would think that TEs might be willing to speculate, but ultimately how would we suppose from any position (TE/EC, YEC, or OEC) what God's intentions are. If he should tarry 1,000,000 years, then mankind will certainly be different. If he were to return tomorrow, well, then we are the final product.
The TE position doesn't suppose to answer the question.
But, if all you're asking for is speculation, I'm sure others will oblige.
Upvote
0
Wiccan_Child
Contributor
- Mar 21, 2005
- 19,419
- 673
- Faith
- Atheist
- Marital Status
- In Relationship
- Politics
- UK-Liberal-Democrats
Heh, good point. I meant to write "evolving to be like God". It's been a long day.
He has this British liberal Pagan's vote. I dunno about the rest; I'll ask at the next national conference.P.S. Does Obama have the British liberal pagan vote? Please form a 527 group and publicize it.
Upvote
0
Upvote
0
Wiccan_Child
Contributor
- Mar 21, 2005
- 19,419
- 673
- Faith
- Atheist
- Marital Status
- In Relationship
- Politics
- UK-Liberal-Democrats
Evolution is evolution, regardless of selection.
Diabetes? Seriously?
I'm sensing a Poe...
Upvote
0
I don't think the human species will survive the next thousand years, but even if we do, it's unlikely that we'll evolve naturally any further because humans no longer have differential survival or gene isolation.
In any case, I believe we're the final product and are living in the final chapters of Revelation.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
juvenissun
... and God saw that it was good.
- Apr 5, 2007
- 25,452
- 805
- 73
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Baptist
- Marital Status
- Married
Human is not an evolved product. So human will not evolve either.
It is not easy to look forward. But it could be easier to look backward. And looking back can sometimes solve the problem regards to the future.
Upvote
0
Hi Chesterton:
The reason water becomes less and less vital to human existence is explained through an understanding of my mystery diagrams (how they work) where the ‘water witness’ begins very large, but then is summed up into the ‘blood witness’ (soul) component of the equation. The diagram/equation for all of God’s Three Witness Mystery Sets (diagram and diagram) appear very much the same with the ‘blood witness’ (always in red) beginning like a girdle between the very large spirit and water witness; whether for the Adamic Creation (pic), the Human Family (pic) or Man (pic) himself. The Father overshadowing the Holy Spirit (Luke 1:35 is the antitype) to beget the “Son” (pic) follows all the same rules that apply to ‘all’ of God’s Three Witness Mystery Sets. When you see Scripture saying that the Son is in the ‘bosom’ of the Father, then that Greek term for ‘bosom’ (kalops #2859) means “the bosom of a garment, i.e. the hollow formed by the upper forepart of a rather loose garment bound by A GIRDLE or sash, used for keeping and carrying things (the fold or pocket). In every case, the only begotten ‘blood witness’ (like the Son, heaven, and your soul) begins as a sliver (girdle) like a new crescent moon, but in the middle where the two seas meet (spirit and water witness); so that the original two witnesses appear VERY LARGE in proportion.
When the heavens and earth were married back together to beget ‘heaven’ (Gen. 1:8), then the only begotten blood witness (soul of the universe) had the same ‘girdle-like’ characteristics between the massive heavens and the waters gathered ‘below’ the expanse that became our physical universe. Your spirit and physical body today are LARGE in comparison to your very small girdle-like soul (heaven in you) representing the place where those two seas meet/overlap, which means your ‘water witness’ helper (physical body) is made up from a very high percentage of ‘water.’ Peter gives some insight to this teaching in saying,
In Christ Jesus,
Terral
Yes I know the answer, but be warned that the truth is much stranger than fiction. :0) Current humans are nowhere near the final product of humans on earth throughout all the ‘ages to come’ (Eph. 2:7). Scripture gives several clues that mankind will pass through several stages of development and live for hundreds and even thousands of years in the future:
Humans in the past lived for more than 900 years (Adam, Seth, Enosh, Jared, Methuselah) and men on earth will far surpass those lifetimes when death is eliminated from the equation (Rev. 20:14) on the New Earth (like Rev. 21:1+) coming with each new age. One major difference between our human bodies today and those of the future is the percentage of ‘water’ that will decrease with the recreation of man in each new age. You look at this earth today and see seventy percent of the surface covered with water (link) and a baby is born with a body that is about 78 percent water (link), which decreases over time to around 60 percent. However, the New Earth has no oceans at all (Rev 21:1 = no sea) and the percentage of water in man’s body will be decreased significantly with the coming of each new age.
The reason water becomes less and less vital to human existence is explained through an understanding of my mystery diagrams (how they work) where the ‘water witness’ begins very large, but then is summed up into the ‘blood witness’ (soul) component of the equation. The diagram/equation for all of God’s Three Witness Mystery Sets (diagram and diagram) appear very much the same with the ‘blood witness’ (always in red) beginning like a girdle between the very large spirit and water witness; whether for the Adamic Creation (pic), the Human Family (pic) or Man (pic) himself. The Father overshadowing the Holy Spirit (Luke 1:35 is the antitype) to beget the “Son” (pic) follows all the same rules that apply to ‘all’ of God’s Three Witness Mystery Sets. When you see Scripture saying that the Son is in the ‘bosom’ of the Father, then that Greek term for ‘bosom’ (kalops #2859) means “the bosom of a garment, i.e. the hollow formed by the upper forepart of a rather loose garment bound by A GIRDLE or sash, used for keeping and carrying things (the fold or pocket). In every case, the only begotten ‘blood witness’ (like the Son, heaven, and your soul) begins as a sliver (girdle) like a new crescent moon, but in the middle where the two seas meet (spirit and water witness); so that the original two witnesses appear VERY LARGE in proportion.
When the heavens and earth were married back together to beget ‘heaven’ (Gen. 1:8), then the only begotten blood witness (soul of the universe) had the same ‘girdle-like’ characteristics between the massive heavens and the waters gathered ‘below’ the expanse that became our physical universe. Your spirit and physical body today are LARGE in comparison to your very small girdle-like soul (heaven in you) representing the place where those two seas meet/overlap, which means your ‘water witness’ helper (physical body) is made up from a very high percentage of ‘water.’ Peter gives some insight to this teaching in saying,
Your ‘spirit’ also existed LONG AGO in comparison to your physical body that was also “formed out of water and by water” in a very similar way. Each time that the “Earth” is remade for each age to come (like in Rev. 21:1), then the two seas will be allowed to overlap in greater degrees; until the blood witness soul sums up more and more of the spirit and body that steadily passes away like this (pic). The Heavens and Earth of this Creation will decrease in proportion to the enlarging blood witness (Heaven) ‘and’ the physical bodies of human beings will also be married back to a higher percentage of the ‘spirit’ for the ‘blood witness’ soul to become the physical manifestation on the then ‘soul-like’ new earth. Let’s suppose that this universe is recreated in 7 series of 490 times, before everything in the heavens and earth is summed back up into Christ (Eph. 1:9-10); when everything in this universe returns to the Genesis 1:1 state of perfection for God to then become ‘all in all’ (1Cor. 15:28 = like this) again. This means that this earth and the bodies of men will continue to take on a ‘water witness’ weaker vessel image (like woman = glory of man = 1Cor. 11:3) for the first three or four series of recreations, before eventually the ‘blood witness’ soul-like man replaces his weaker water witness incarnation upon the transformed ‘earth’ prepared for the same ‘change,’ when the creation itself takes on the image of the glory of the children of God (Rom. 8:20-22). This means that rather than seeing a ‘water-like’ earth and men with ‘water-like’ bodies that the observer will see the ‘soul-like’ man with a ‘soul-like’ body prepared by God Himself to exist in a ‘soul-like’ universe upon a ‘soul-like’ planet earth. :0) This is the very reason that Paul says,
The Creation that you look out into today is dark and shadowy and seemingly lifeless in comparison to the great Light and Glory that God has prepared in advance for those who love Him. In the same way, the human body is a mere shadowy reflection of the GREAT glorious bodies of men and women walking around on this earth for each successive age in all the ages to come. The fact that men and women and even the animals of the future will live upon this earth in bodies of great glory has very little to do with the ‘Evolution’ or 'biology' of anything, but MUCH more to do with the Theistic side of the equation. :0)
In Christ Jesus,
Terral
Last edited:
Upvote
0
- Status
Similar threads
