Are We In the Matrix?

[Isaacsname]

Mmmmm, brains

 

[dgiharris]

This question has always been posited as the proof that nothing is certain, because no one can know that they aren't just a brain in a jar somewhere, but now I seem to be seeing more and more evidence that this "theory" might just be real.

If you were an alien race that was harvesting humans for energy, you would likely want to make the harvesting process more efficient, correct? ....

I'd like to run with your theory and help you refine it. First off, in terms of economy, humans would make a horrible energy source. We are basically nothing more than water, amino acids, carbon compounds and the universe is filled with that stuff. So the amount of "trouble" you have to go through just to harvest humans for energy isn't worth it. Especially if you are advanced enough to do this Matrix thingy, you'd also be able to do fusion or maybe even harness quantum vacuum related energy (zero point energy) which would be near infinite. So no, that isn't a good reason.

So the real question is: Out of the entire universe worth of stuff, what do humans have that is perhaps unique to other things in the universe?

Well, I would think that perhaps our "Consciousness" would be unique. We don't quite know what consciousness and sentience is, but we know that we have it in spades. As human beings we think of new and different and unique ideas all the time and I would propose that this would be something "unique" that doesn't occur that often in the universe.

If consciousness and sentience were a commodity, then it would make a lot of sense to develop something like the Matrix stocked with human beings.

....Well one way to make that process more efficient is to cut down on how much code needs to be run to simulate human interactions.

However, you wouldn't want to limit the Matrix. What you would want to do code wise is just construct a world with rules and allow the human mental constructs free reign in interacting in the world however they wanted it. Basically, it would be way too complex to try to write code for everything. It would be impossible. HOwever, what you "could" write code for would be something like the laws of physics and motion and forces and energy... basically just create a "world" and then allow humans to work within the rules doing whatever they wanted. Meanwhile, you harvest the human consciousness whenever and however you'd like.

Perhaps the reason we humans die is because we each get harvested 5% per year once we "mature" and initially we recover but over time we just peeter out from being over harvested and this is representing by us "aging"???

.... Therefore, I suggest that internet forums are evidence of The Matrix.....

I think better proof of the Matrix is how mathematical formulas describing nature keep repeating.
Also how there is some inconsistency between science and what we "predict" in nature.

For instance, given what we know about science, life should be overflowing in the universe yet so far we have received no signals from other intelligent beings. This would suggest that everything beyond our solar system is just a sham, window dressing.

Other proof would be the initially failures of probes sent to Mars. THe aliens didn't account for other planets in our universe and so when we initially sent probes out of Earth space, the code crashed and the probes "died" until the aliens instituted a software matrix patch to account for the window dressing other planets in our solar system.

Other proof could also be the speed of light. That is a forced limitation keeping our sphere of observation and influence in the universe manageable. If we could break the speed of light and go to other worlds, we'd grow exponentially and the code required to house us would likewise grow exponentially and become to complex to manage. An analogy would be that we are currently in a fish tank and that is manageable. But if we could break the speed of light, the fish tank would become the size of the ocean and that is unmanageable...

 

[Moral Orel]

Well, I would think that perhaps our "Consciousness" would be unique. We don't quite know what consciousness and sentience is, but we know that we have it in spades. As human beings we think of new and different and unique ideas all the time and I would propose that this would be something "unique" that doesn't occur that often in the universe.

If consciousness and sentience were a commodity, then it would make a lot of sense to develop something like the Matrix stocked with human beings.

Exactly! Now I won't deign to understand the alien's technology, so I have to use analogies that we can understand with our limited capabilities, but it is likely that they could have found a way to have human consciousness turn some kind of turbine that creates energy. It isn't as simple as connecting us like a battery and draining the wattage that our brains produce.

And although some people have pointed out that there are likely other forms of energy production that are more efficient, that would be to say that there is no other thing to be gained from our consciousness being locked in the Matrix. I don't know what other purpose the aliens have for us, I am just pointing out the evidence that they are there and controlling our reality.

However, you wouldn't want to limit the Matrix. What you would want to do code wise is just construct a world with rules and allow the human mental constructs free reign in interacting in the world however they wanted it. Basically, it would be way too complex to try to write code for everything. It would be impossible. HOwever, what you "could" write code for would be something like the laws of physics and motion and forces and energy... basically just create a "world" and then allow humans to work within the rules doing whatever they wanted. Meanwhile, you harvest the human consciousness whenever and however you'd like.

Now I wasn't suggesting that they needed to "write" less code, just that less code needs to "run" for each of us. It isn't about limiting our capabilities to think and reason and react emotionally, just a limit on how much energy they need to produce to evoke those responses from us. Each person we see has to be rendered which takes energy. But if all we see are words on a screen, but we still get a big emotional and intellectual response from it, then they become more efficient.

Perhaps the reason we humans die is because we each get harvested 5% per year once we "mature" and initially we recover but over time we just peeter out from being over harvested and this is representing by us "aging"???

Very sound theory. The aliens probably have a formula for determining how much we are harvested for the maximum gains while keeping us from existing and thinking long enough to realize that we are in the Matrix. I'm sure they have decided on an average lifespan for us and that is all part of the works.

Other proof would be the initially failures of probes sent to Mars. THe aliens didn't account for other planets in our universe and so when we initially sent probes out of Earth space, the code crashed and the probes "died" until the aliens instituted a software matrix patch to account for the window dressing other planets in our solar system.

There you go! Did you ever see The 13th Floor? Same concept as the Matrix, generally, except they found that if they tried to travel too far away they could see the program instead of the illusion. All the way to the edge though there would be illusions telling them to go back such as "road closed" and such. Of course there would be limitations on how far we could go.

Other proof could also be the speed of light. That is a forced limitation keeping our sphere of observation and influence in the universe manageable. If we could break the speed of light and go to other worlds, we'd grow exponentially and the code required to house us would likewise grow exponentially and become to complex to manage. An analogy would be that we are currently in a fish tank and that is manageable. But if we could break the speed of light, the fish tank would become the size of the ocean and that is unmanageable...

Further evidence! Why else would there be a speed limit to the universe? It makes traveling and communicating extremely long distances impossible, and that is exactly what the aliens want. To keep us on Earth interacting with each other. They don't want to have to write code for every little thing in the Universe. The aliens are probably behind the budget of NASA getting slashed so that we won't be sending out any more manned missions.

 

[Eudaimonist]

It's all right there in front of you! You just don't want to see it.

Everything that I see points in a different direction. Perhaps you don't want to see that.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[pshun2404]

Socio-politically the masses definitely live in the idea not the reality. What we see in the Media is packaged and sold to "SHAPE" public opinion. The do not in many cases and ways give us "the truth". To shape an opinion is to engineer the outcome/conclusion you desire for the recipients to arrive at. Propaganda technique and the art of rhetoric are the main tools accompanied by two things:

a) "images" for imprinting (one pix = 1000 words) and
b) Emotional association (negative and positive adjectives are used to incite)...

The final seal to the deal is when one or more alleged authorities publicly declare its true....then the masses are convinced (proactively as it is)....

So yes, the majority of people are like dumb sheep being led to the slaughter trusting their shepherds...basically we are all pimped daily....things are not always as they appear to be...

 

[Chany]

Given the human body would produce the same amount of energy as it would a coma, keeping the humans in a coma would be even cheaper.

This kind of thing was what I was attempting (and probably failing) to allude to in the second half of my post. There is no real reason to promote a coherent illusion for humans. All that would need to occur is the electrical impulses from the brain and nervous system to fire off, something that does not require a massive simulation to run.

Also, a thing I don't understand is that this would require a supply of food, water, and a slew of other stuff. Our bodies, in other words, have to consume a level of energy energy in order to produce a fraction of that energy. This is not including the energy needed to maintain such a system for a period of time.

 

[durangodawood]

"Harvesting humans for energy" ???

Seriously?

 

[Eudaimonist]

"Harvesting humans for energy" ???

Seriously?

Yeah, that was the least convincing aspect of the story of The Matrix, requiring the most suspension of disbelief simply to let the story unfold.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[GrowingSmaller]

I saw people driving, some had pop, some had rock, some har nasheed music playing on the car stereo etc. Philosophiclaly its the same, we may be on the same street, right here right now, but were all heading different ways with different 'music' playing...

http://www.dar-al-masnavi.org/reedsong.html (translation #7)

Listen to this Ney (the reed-flute) that is complaining ***
and narrating the story of separation.
2. Ever since they (the people) have plucked me from the reedland,
*** my laments have driven men and women to deep sorrow.

 

[ananda]

IMO our consciousnesses controls our avatars (physical bodies) in this world. So, in that sense, yes.

 

[Chany]

"Harvesting humans for energy" ???

Seriously?

Hey, they needed a convenient plot point to why the humans are in the Matrix. How else would you justify putting the entire human race inside one illusion together?

 

[Chany]

Yeah, that was the least convincing aspect of the story of The Matrix, requiring the most suspension of disbelief simply to let the story unfold.


eudaimonia,

Mark

I thought the least convincing aspect was Keanu Reeves' acting.

*cymbal crash*

 

[Eudaimonist]

I thought the least convincing aspect was Keanu Reeves' acting.

*cymbal crash*

Heheh. Not to derail the thread too much, but I was impressed with his acting in that movie. It was gigabytes better than Johnny Moronic.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[GrowingSmaller]

If we are in a matrix, then is that a version of scientific realism. real computers, real matrix etc.

 

[durangodawood]

Hey, they needed a convenient plot point to why the humans are in the Matrix. How else would you justify putting the entire human race inside one illusion together?

I dunno. There's no good rationale.

Or you could just say "aliens work in mysterious ways" and be done with it.

 

[Gottservant]

There is a lot that is cool about the matrix. I think the power of the concept, changes from generation to generation, in a way - which maybe someone was alluding to, when they were saying "we are harvested incrementally, and it is represented by ageing". I don't know that you need to know, how you are being observed, or controlled, so much as you need to be able to anticipate Smith's corruption of the source, for his own ends.

It's not that there aren't controls in place, or observations being made, its just that 90% of the time - in reality that is just paranoia, that a little confidence or bravado, would make redundant. If there is something to watch for, it is the next door, the next portal - to whatever adventure inside the Matrix you want to be part of -- like dreaming that the dream would never end, only to be dreaming the next dream and not knowing what happened, enough to care about what will happen next.

If Smith catches you, and takes you over, when you are not ready, that is just the beginning though - I think that is what Christ teaches about the Matrix. You need to be aware that the source will reboot you, if you trust in the words of the Neo-Christ and that the memory of your enrichment in the Matrix will not be lost on those that must discover what to value, after you. If you are free of the Matrix, you realize that it is what codifies, your memories; it is what defines your nervous consistency, and spiritual power. You are not unable to equal Smith, in the end.

I don't know that the batteries thing ever did justice to the mystery of being in the Matrix, myself - I have always preferred to think that the Matrix's reasons for keeping batteries was more impermeable, than energy (but I could be wrong, about how little the Matrix really wants ( )).

 

[True Scotsman]

This question has always been posited as the proof that nothing is certain, because no one can know that they aren't just a brain in a jar somewhere, but now I seem to be seeing more and more evidence that this "theory" might just be real.

If you were an alien race that was harvesting humans for energy, you would likely want to make the harvesting process more efficient, correct? Well one way to make that process more efficient is to cut down on how much code needs to be run to simulate human interactions. I think that a very clever solution would be to create something that causes people to interact with one another on a very basic level without needing to simulate anything at all but words on a screen. Therefore, I suggest that internet forums are evidence of The Matrix.

Just think about how much easier it would be for said alien race to send texts, "like" comments, and make posts all in the name of keeping us running without needing much energy spent on their part.

Then think about people escaping The Matrix. Internet forums can be monitored and edited instantly and easily by a super-intelligent computer program. In doing this, the aliens can keep people from alerting others to the fact that they are in The Matrix to begin with.

And what about terrorism and fear-mongering? Being afraid makes us more likely to stay at home and not to go out and mingle with other humans, which undoubtedly will save on energy costs because you don't need to render a whole city full of people all the time if they are just staying in doors.

Has anyone else seen evidence that seems to suggest we are all just brains in jars?

I've been swallowing every red pill I can find... no luck yet.

No. There's no evidence that we are. These type of questions amount to an attack on the validity of consciousness. If we can not be certain of anything then we can not be certain that we can not be certain, which means certainty is possible. These type of attacks are always self refuting. The question asks for an answer and therefore assumes that knowledge is possible to man. But if knowledge is possible to man then his consciousness is valid and he can be certain of some things. All such questions should be dismissed as arbitrary.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

I am in a model.

 

[Neogaia777]

Well, I heard that current discoveries in quantum physics, the scientists are starting to wonder if were not all running on a Holodeck, since it caused them to deeper questions on how real this life really is, and if there is another life, besides this one that they're just beginning to touch on... Being plugged into a holodeck can be like the Matrix...

God Bless!

 

[dlamberth]

I've been swallowing every red pill I can find... no luck yet.

New Agers like to use the imagery of Matrix in their spirituality.

.