Are they with Jesus now or asleep until he raise them later?

[Mark Quayle]

Too bad you don't agree with the Scriptures like I do, because that's all I'm doing. I'm not pushing my own ideas like many here do. Clare is pushing a 'fleshy' thinking about the resurrection body type, and that's all there is to it, which is NOT even close to what Apostle Paul was teaching about the resurrection in 1 Cor.15. I can easily realize when someone has refused to give up the old Jewish 'dead in the ground' belief with thinking the "spiritual body" is a new flesh body. It ain't. Don't like me saying so? Too bad, because that's what the Scripture teaches, and I'm 100% aligned with Apostle Paul on it. I've even noticed some folks here even think when the angels appear to flesh men on earth, they think those angels (like in Genesis 19) had to put on some human flesh body just to appear on earth! Nothing written in God's Word about that; it only shows how some just can't give up their 'carnal' thinking.

Enjoy

 

[Davy]

Seems you need to answer that one for yourself. . .

Now if you just knew and understood Paul's reference point in "flesh and blood". . . and "spiritual."

So now... you're gonna' try to say 'flesh and blood' don't mean flesh and blood?? You'd had been better off keeping silent instead throwing out such a ludicrous idea.

 

[Clare73]

So now... you're gonna' try to say 'flesh and blood' don't mean flesh and blood?? You'd had been better off keeping silent instead throwing out such a ludicrous idea.

Would you be better off knowing from the NT more about the meaning of Paul?

 

[Davy]

Would you be better off knowing from the NT more about the meaning of Paul?

Like the quote I said earlier, fits well with some folks:

"It's better to remain silent and thought a fool, than to speak up and remove all doubt.", one my mother's favorites.

 

[Clare73]

Like the quote I said earlier, fits well with some folks:

"It's better to remain silent and thought a fool, than to speak up and remove all doubt.", one my mother's favorites.

Agreed.

Falls somewhat short of a Biblical demonstration of my error.

 

[Davy]

Brethren in Christ Jesus, you don't need to worry about your deceased love ones, they are in heaven with Jesus, and not in some hole in the ground.

Like Apostle Paul said, we are "...willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord" (2 Corinthians 5:8).

In that 2 Corinthians 5 chapter, that is another place in God's Word that reveals that our 'real person' is not made up of flesh, but of Spirit, and that heaven is out true home (a castle), while this flesh is just a temporary home (just a bungalow).

 

[SavedByGrace3]

It seems to me the body sleeps in the earth, but the spirit is alive with Christ in heaven.

 

[Mark Quayle]

It seems to me the body sleeps in the earth, but the spirit is alive with Christ in heaven.

Temporally, yes. It seems. But from God's point of view, is it not 'already' an accomplished fact, that the Bride of Christ is complete? Did he not speak her into existence? I can't prove it, because there are facts I don't know, but it is logical with what I do know. But this temporal is not our home. We are built for eternity. I don't see any good reason to trust our current point of view and its logical conclusions.

 

[timothyu]

We still exist here so obviously the new Kingdom, our second abode, has not yet come down from Heaven as scripture states. So are the dead in a storage locker, because they don't belong in Heaven? We were meant for a domain like here where the two meet.

 

[Mark Quayle]

We still exist here so obviously the new Kingdom, our second abode, has not yet come down from Heaven as scripture states. So are the dead in a storage locker, because they don't belong in Heaven? We were meant for a domain like here where the two meet.

Asked from a temporal POV...

 

[timothyu]

Asked from a temporal POV...

What else would be of use to God in a physical world? The elohim were of no use, actually a disaster in the making

 

[Mark Quayle]

What else would be of use to God in a physical world? The elohim were of no use, actually a disaster in the making

He intended everything, and uses everything.

Proverbs 16:4
"The Lord has made all for Himself,
Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom."

 

[timothyu]

He intended everything, and uses everything.

Right.. and we were intended for this world, not Heaven.

 

[BobRyan]

Jesus speaking here:

Luke 16:22-23
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
KJV

Tell me then, HOW was that rich man, having died and been buried, was able to be aware of being in hell and lifting up his eyes to see Abraham in the heavenly?

IT is a parable of prayers to the dead where God is not prayed to - rather it is Abraham who is prayed to such that Abraham is in charge of all the saints. Abraham determines who gets to be resurrected to return and witness to the living and who does not in that parable. IT is similar to the parable in the OT where the trees go out to elect a king.

Christ ends that Luke 16 parable with this lesson "if they do not listen to Moses then neither will they listen - though one rises from the dead"

I don't know where the heck you got that idea.

The saints do not pray to Abraham.

The saints don't pray to anyone that has died - they pray to God in the Bible.

But in the Luke 16 parable you brought up - a lost person is depicted as praying to Abraham.

As far as that being just a parable, or story Lord Jesus was giving, no matter, because He would still not mislead us with descriptions of fake places and things.

IN the book of Judges we have the case of "the trees going out to elect a King". -- so then --- not real life
Parables are funny that way.

In Luke 16 no one prays to God, Abraham is sovereign over all the saints who are all in Abraham's lap.
Sorry - that is what the parable says., But no worries - it is just a parable

That Paradise in the heavenly with a division between the abode of the wicked called hell, and across a great fixed border where Abraham and the saved are, is real.

There is not one text in all of scripture that says that in paradise there is a division where one side is paradise-hell and the other side with Abraham.

The Jews back then actually understood about the existence of Paradise in the heavenly dimension. Even Apostle Paul proclaimed it in 2 Corinthians 12.

There are exactly 3 texts in all of scripture on that subject of Paradise and none of them say the lost are there or that hades is there or that hell is there. The only one that says that Abraham is in charge of it is Luke 16 and that is a parable.

So then you have Luke 16, 2 Cor 12, Rev 2:7 (and by extension because of Rev 2:7 you also have Rev 22:1-2).

That's it! that is all that scripture has on the topic.

The OT parable in Judges 9, where the trees want to find a king, I don't see it has a relation to the story of Lazarus

They are both parables.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Right.. and we were intended for this world, not Heaven.

Incomplete until Heaven. Some were intended for Heaven.

 

[Davy]

It seems to me the body sleeps in the earth, but the spirit is alive with Christ in heaven.

That is the tradition from men, but it's not God's Word.

When Apostle Paul said in 1 Cor.15:50 that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, neither can corruption inherit incorruption, that's exactly what he meant. That means the resurrection body is NOT another flesh and blood type body.

But the resurrection body can...
1. live upon the earth
2. eat earthly food
3. sleep
4. feel like flesh, look like flesh.

It's just a type body of that 'other' dimension, which that other dimension is one of Spirit, not flesh. That is the type of existence in the world to come. When Jesus returns, this flesh world will be over. That doesn't mean the earth will be gone. It simply means our existence upon this earth will no longer be in a flesh type body. The heavenly dimension is going to be joined right here with this earthly one, like it was when God once lived here upon this earth...

Who doesn't know that God once lived upon this earth before Adam and Eve sinned? Genesis 2 even reveals that God's River in His Garden of Eden flowed out of His Garden to feed 4 other rivers upon this earth, 2 of those rivers still exist on the earth today, the Euphrates and the Tigris (Hiddekel)!

And in Revelation, He has promised to return to this earth to live with us, His River of the Waters of Life returning with Him, and the Tree of Life, actual REAL things.

 

[Davy]

IT is a parable of prayers to the dead where God is not prayed to - rather it is Abraham who is prayed to such that Abraham is in charge of all the saints. Abraham determines who gets to be resurrected to return and witness to the living and who does not in that parable. IT is similar to the parable in the OT where the trees go out to elect a king.

Nope. Jesus was not giving a "parable of prayers to the dead" in Luke 16 with the story of Lazarus and the rich man. And this is easy to know, since the rich man in torments in the abode of hell wanted Abraham to send Lazarus to the rich man's brethren on earth to warn them about that place.

Jesus was giving a testimony of what Paradise is like; it includes 2 sections divided by a great fixed gulf that cannot be crossed. One side of Paradise is on the side with Abraham, the saved, and the other side is the abode of the wicked dead called hell, or more properly Haides. Historically per the Greeks, they called the river of separation in the underworld Styx.

The abodes in the heavenly dimension are very real, even contains a heavenly prison in a place of separation, just like it is here on earth.

 

[Davy]

Right.. and we were intended for this world, not Heaven.

I have to say it, but you couldn't be more wrong.

Heb 11:16
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for He hath prepared for them a city.
KJV

Gal 4:26
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
KJV

Paul gives away many secrets for those who pay attention. How exactly is Jerusalem that is above, is the "mother of us all"? Paul is speaking about the Heavenly Jerusalem that is with God right now in Heaven. He has promised to bring it down to this earth per the end of Revelation. This is going to be a very 'real' future event with the new Jerusalem coming down out of Heaven from God, not some spiritual philosophical idea. And it means... the Heavenly is going to be revealed right here UPON this earth in that future. This is why the New Testament has references to God's Salvation through His Son relating the heavenly with this earth in His future Kingdom (see also Ezekiel 40 thru 47, which are future Millennial chapters).

 

[BobRyan]

Nope. Jesus was not giving a "parable of prayers to the dead" in Luke 16 with the story of Lazarus and the rich man

The details state otherwise



as of vs 22 - the rich man is dead. and so also the poor man

22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.​

So now we have 2 dead people - the rich man and the poor man as of vs 22
the dead rich man sees Abraham, and also sees Lazarus in Abraham's lap

24 “Then he (the rich man) cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’​

As R.C. Sproul notes - this is a prayer to Abraham , a request of the dead, it is not a pray to God.

25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.​

In that section above - we see that the rich man is asked to remember his LIFETIME - the days prior -- when he was ALIVE. When he LIVED.

26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’​

27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’​

​

30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’ ”​

In that section above we see the reader reminded that we are talking about "The DEAD" and someone going to the living "FROM the DEAD"
And apparently it is Abraham alone that determines if he will send someone or not. in this parable.

Jesus was giving a testimony of what Paradise is like;

Jesus never says the rich man went to paradise.
No text says anyone suffers anything at all in paradise.

Instead what we see is
2 Cor 12 - Paradise is in the third heaven
Rev 2- where the tree of life and the throne of God is - Rev 22:1-3

it includes 2 sections divided by a great fixed gulf

IN the parable Abraham never says that the rich man is in paradise all he says is that between Lazarus who is in Abraham's lap in Paradise -- and the rich man who is in Hades not paradise, who is in torment not in paradise - there is a great gulf.

 

[timothyu]

I have to say it, but you couldn't be more wrong.

Then you say.. He has promised to bring it down to this earth per the end of Revelation. This is going to be a very 'real' future event with the new Jerusalem coming down out of Heaven from God,

A world of our own, not Heaven