Are they both saying the same thing?

[Adventtruth]

Mrs. White states:

"Those who accept Christ, and in their first confidence say, I am saved, are in danger of trusting to themselves. . . . Those who accept the Saviour, however sincere their conversion; should never be taught to say or feel that they are saved. This is misleading."
Christ’s Object Lessons, p. 155 (1900 edition),


"No sanctified tongue will be found uttering these words [“I am saved”] till Christ shall come, and we enter in through the gates into the city of God . . . As long as man is full of weakness—for of himself he cannot save his soul—he should never dare to say, “I am saved.” Selected Messages, Vol. 1, p. 314.


The bible says:

(1Jo 5:11) And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
(1Jo 5:12) He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
(1Jo 5:13) These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

-AT

 

[Sophia7]

I've heard people try to explain away her statements here to reconcile them with the Bible, but in my opinion she contradicts the Bible on this.

 

[reddogs]

I have come accross many Christians that say they are "saved"and thus dont have to follow the commandments or Sabbath as they are "saved" and nothing can stop their journey to eternal life as "once saved alsways saved". Then several weeks or month or years later I find them, completely rejecting God, the church of their choice, or anything to do with the Bible and when I ask them what happen I thought you were "saved". They always reply in a similiar vein, they were mislead or followed teachings which were wrong and dont care or want to return to Christ or his teaching or have anything to do with religion or church and please go away as I sense their shame.


God knows who is saved and has eternal life, it is not for man to decide for God.......

 

[Adventtruth]

I have come accross many Christians that say they are "saved"and thus dont have to follow the commandments or Sabbath as they are "saved" and nothing can stop their journey to eternal life as "once saved alsways saved". Then several weeks or month or years later I find them, completely rejecting God, the church of their choice, or anything to do with the Bible and when I ask them what happen I thought you were "saved". They always reply in a similiar vein, they were mislead or followed teachings which were wrong and dont care or want to return to Christ or his teaching or have anything to do with religion or church and please go away as I sense their shame.

Well thats a shame redd. The bible gives many scriptures that say a man can lose theri salvation if they reject the grace of God. Those whom you discribe above have not a relationship with God. For we don't follow man or a system, or a church. A true believer will treasure Christ and follow Him. It is through a union and a relationship that men are saved.

God knows who is saved and has eternal life, it is not for man to decide for God.......

True God knows, but Ellen got that one wrong. The bible clearly tells us we can know if we are saved.

--AT

 

[Adventtruth]

I've heard people try to explain away her statements here to reconcile them with the Bible, but in my opinion she contradicts the Bible on this.

Yes people explain away many of her statements. Its hard to let go sometimes. When one believes that all she wrote was from God and then finds problems with reconciling her words with the bible, its a shock. But we all have to side with the bible and not make excuses for her...she was wrong and maybe not honest in her ministry.

-AT

 

[g85]

Mrs. White states:

"Those who accept Christ, and in their first confidence say, I am saved, are in danger of trusting to themselves. . . . Those who accept the Saviour, however sincere their conversion; should never be taught to say or feel that they are saved. This is misleading."
Christ’s Object Lessons, p. 155 (1900 edition),


"No sanctified tongue will be found uttering these words [“I am saved”] till Christ shall come, and we enter in through the gates into the city of God . . . As long as man is full of weakness—for of himself he cannot save his soul—he should never dare to say, “I am saved.” Selected Messages, Vol. 1, p. 314.

Maybe saying "I am saved" can be misleading in the sense that we can get too proud of ourselves... forgetting we are saved only in Jesus. I dont know. At church lately Ive been hearing many pastors say... "do you believe you are saved?" and when every1 seems to be unsure... they say that we should be confident about Jesus saving us... (But I still find it that it can sound a bit... well...I dont know how to put it... but can be misleading... )

I do believe in Ellen White stuff, BUT Bible comes first all the time... And I try to make sure I dont get confuse between advices and visions and stuff...

Though I dont know what this is.. seems like a personal opinion...

(This opinion of mine is kinda tricky.. In the sense that some1 could argue that I try to choose and that way I can choose what I want to follow or not. But I follow the Bible)

 

[Adventtruth]

Maybe saying "I am saved" can be misleading in the sense that we can get too proud of ourselves... forgetting we are saved only in Jesus. I dont know. At church lately Ive been hearing many pastors say... "do you believe you are saved?" and when every1 seems to be unsure... they say that we should be confident about Jesus saving us... (But I still find it that it can sound a bit... well...I dont know how to put it... but can be misleading... )

I do believe in Ellen White stuff, BUT Bible comes first all the time... And I try to make sure I dont get confuse between advices and visions and stuff...

Though I dont know what this is.. seems like a personal opinion...

(This opinion of mine is kinda tricky.. In the sense that some1 could argue that I try to choose and that way I can choose what I want to follow or not. But I follow the Bible)

AT

 

[reddogs]

I think the answer is we are saved in Christ, but to walk around and say "we are saved" needs to be connected to Christs saving grace. Otherwise it may be or seem to infer that we think we are able to do it ourselves, much like when Peter said with pride (and sure as the sun rises) that he would stick with Christ even unto death..... then he falls flat on his face swearing he doesnt know Christ and the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crows........

 

[Sophia7]

I think the answer is we are saved in Christ, but to walk around and say "we are saved" needs to be connected to Christs saving grace. Otherwise it may be or seem that we think we are able to do it ourselves, like when Peter said with pride and sure as the sun rises he would stick with Chirst even unto death..... then he falls flat on his face swearing he doesnt know Christ and the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crows........

But that's not what EGW said. She said that we shouldn't say it at all or even feel it.

 

[OntheDL]

I've heard people try to explain away her statements here to reconcile them with the Bible, but in my opinion she contradicts the Bible on this.

No contradictions at all.

The bible says he that overcomes and endures to the end, the same shall be saved.

He that believes and is baptised shall be saved.

The actual saving takes place at the end after judgment. The judgment determines who's saved, who's condemned.

The popular christianity teaches the cross accomplished all. But in reality, the bible teaches it's the sacrifice that's finished at the cross. The whole plan of salvation, the whole process is the character transformation. This is the sanctuary doctrine that differentiate us from the rest of christiandom that advocates 'cheap grace'.

The bible does talk about the assurance of salvation. It does not mean we are already saved at the cross. There is no universal and unconditional justification.

Doesn't the bible say only the Lamb is worthy to open the 7th seal: the book of life? If that's the case, not even the angels know if you and I are saved at this point. How can anyone boast that he/she is already saved?

So to say 'I'm saved' is to say I'm beyond temptation. Is it the case for anyone?

 

[Sophia7]

No contradictions at all.

The bible says he that overcomes and endures to the end, the same shall be saved.

He that believes and is baptised shall be saved.

The actual saving takes place at the end after judgment. The judgment determines who's saved, who's condemned.

The popular christianity teaches the cross accomplished all. But in reality, the bible teaches it's the sacrifice that's finished at the cross. The whole plan of salvation, the whole process is the character transformation. This is the sanctuary doctrine that differentiate us from the rest of christiandom that advocates 'cheap grace'.

The bible does talk about the assurance of salvation. It does not mean we are already saved at the cross. There is no universal and unconditional justification.

Doesn't the bible say only the Lamb is worthy to open the 7th seal: the book of life? If that's the case, not even the angels know if you and I are saved at this point. How can anyone boast that he/she is already saved?

I disagree. My reasons are here, and I don't advocate "cheap grace" or OSAS.

 

[OntheDL]

I disagree. My reasons are here, and I don't advocate "cheap grace" or OSAS.

Reply to your post here: http://www.christianforums.com/t450...the-adventist-church.html&page=6#post30538595

 

[reddogs]

No, in the context of new converts they were telling them they were saved once they accepted Christ and got baptized.They could take this as a "once saved always saved" interpretation which is wrong. It is correct in a spiritual sense as at the acceptance of Christ we are covered by his gift of grace, but we can always fall if we lose sight of Christ's saving grace. Folks, we are definitely nitpicking and bobbing and weaving, I know cause my head hurts and my feet are getting numb from it.........

 

[OntheDL]

The bible says 'he that overcomes, endures to the end, the same shall be saved'.

What Ellen White wrote only confirmed and magnified the Bible.

 

[Adventtruth]

The bible says 'he that overcomes, endures to the end, the same shall be saved'.

What Ellen White wrote only confirmed and magnified the Bible.

The bible also says

"1 John 5:11-13 (KJV) 11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

IF your ideas are not within the pale of Justification by faith its not salvation at all.

Ellen white also did much damage by he distortion of the truths in the bible.

-AT

 

[SisterDee]

Before we discuss these excerpts we must have a clear understanding of a few foundational things. I believe that this is the cause for the confusion in this particular forum.

1. Understand the context in which the Ellen White quotations were written.
*If you read from the beginning of Chapter 13, you will see that the warning that Mrs. White is giving is in the context of self-reliance and self-confidence. She is in no way saying that we should not be confident in Christ's power to save and his promise to those that endure til the end.

2. Understand the essence of salvation.
*The salvation that the Bible is referring to is salvation from this world and its destiny. In its stead Christ promises us eternal life with him in heaven. That salvation has not yet come for anyone who is reading this post. It will come at the time of the advent for which we all are waiting.
*To say "I am saved" is to say in essence that this world has no power over you neither now nor in the future. Which I agree with Mrs. White, is a bit presumptous.

3. "Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried." (Dan. 12:10)
"Only he who endures the trial will receive the crown of life." (James 1:12.)
Read Ellen White's words of warning in context. Think about Peter and how in his self-confidence he made a claim in the face of the savior to which he could not hold in his own strength. Jesus in his mercy accepted Peter's repentance and gave him the rights which would have been forfeitted had he continued in his self-sufficient ways.

Maybe we can give this a more careful study before presuming that Mrs. White was inconsistent, and did damage to the truths of God's word.

God Bless you,
SisterDee

 

[Jon0388g]

Before we discuss these excerpts we must have a clear understanding of a few foundational things. I believe that this is the cause for the confusion in this particular forum.

1. Understand the context in which the Ellen White quotations were written.
*If you read from the beginning of Chapter 13, you will see that the warning that Mrs. White is giving is in the context of self-reliance and self-confidence. She is in no way saying that we should not be confident in Christ's power to save and his promise to those that endure til the end.

2. Understand the essence of salvation.
*The salvation that the Bible is referring to is salvation from this world and its destiny. In its stead Christ promises us eternal life with him in heaven. That salvation has not yet come for anyone who is reading this post. It will come at the time of the advent for which we all are waiting.
*To say "I am saved" is to say in essence that this world has no power over you neither now nor in the future. Which I agree with Mrs. White, is a bit presumptous.

3. "Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried." (Dan. 12:10)
"Only he who endures the trial will receive the crown of life." (James 1:12.)
Read Ellen White's words of warning in context. Think about Peter and how in his self-confidence he made a claim in the face of the savior to which he could not hold in his own strength. Jesus in his mercy accepted Peter's repentance and gave him the rights which would have been forfeitted had he continued in his self-sufficient ways.

Maybe we can give this a more careful study before presuming that Mrs. White was inconsistant, and did damage to the truths of God's word.

God Bless you,
SisterDee

Very good post, SisterDee. I didn't even have to read the whole of chapter 13 to realise that EGW was emphasising the dangers of self-reliance and self-assurance. Her comparison to the example of Peter is really good.

What you said about the concept of salvation is also spot on. I cannot agree that we can be sure that we are saved now because - we could easily fall tomorrow. He who has the Son has eternal life, and this is determined at the end.

Jon

 

[SisterDee]

Thank you for the kinds words Jon0388g. I find that most Christians misunderstand the meaning of salvation. Somewhere along the line we got confused about what the Bible means with regards to salvation. Salvation is clearly from this world. That is why we are not to love it nor the things of it. We are to be unattached. Living our lives opposite to the life of the "rich young ruler" whom rejected the call of Jesus for the love of his earthly possessions. Salvation is contemporarily thought to be from sin. (God has saved me from my sin!) That is not the purpose of salvation. The cross and the forgiveness that is available to us took care of the sin problem. (thank the Lord!) Salvation will free us from the power of sin.

 

[Adventtruth]

Before we discuss these excerpts we must have a clear understanding of a few foundational things. I believe that this is the cause for the confusion in this particular forum.

1. Understand the context in which the Ellen White quotations were written.
*If you read from the beginning of Chapter 13, you will see that the warning that Mrs. White is giving is in the context of self-reliance and self-confidence. She is in no way saying that we should not be confident in Christ's power to save and his promise to those that endure til the end.

2. Understand the essence of salvation.
*The salvation that the Bible is referring to is salvation from this world and its destiny. In its stead Christ promises us eternal life with him in heaven. That salvation has not yet come for anyone who is reading this post. It will come at the time of the advent for which we all are waiting.
*To say "I am saved" is to say in essence that this world has no power over you neither now nor in the future. Which I agree with Mrs. White, is a bit presumptous.

3. "Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried." (Dan. 12:10)
"Only he who endures the trial will receive the crown of life." (James 1:12.)
Read Ellen White's words of warning in context. Think about Peter and how in his self-confidence he made a claim in the face of the savior to which he could not hold in his own strength. Jesus in his mercy accepted Peter's repentance and gave him the rights which would have been forfeitted had he continued in his self-sufficient ways.

Maybe we can give this a more careful study before presuming that Mrs. White was inconsistent, and did damage to the truths of God's word.

God Bless you,
SisterDee

sisterDee sense you where wonderful on explaining what EGW was truly saying kindly tell me what John is saying.

1Jo 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1Jo 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
thanks

--AT

 

[SisterDee]

I hope this aids in your understanding.

One of the purposes of Johns letter is to refute the anti-christians who were infiltrating the church. “See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life. I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him. 1 John 2:24-27 His purpose was neither to prove that we (our generation) are saved already nor that the people of his time were saved at the present. (Keep in mind the meaning of salvation. You can refer to my post above) John makes it clear in the beginning of his letter that eternal life is conditional. I must have fellowship with him by continually walking in the light. “Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.” 1 John 2:6 Also refer to the above scripture in bold print. (These are within the same book from which you extracted your scriptures) I can forfeit my eternal life at anytime and in many ways; one of which is relying on myself. (i.e. Having the attitude which Peter displayed. This is what Mrs. White was referring to.) Another example of what happens when we begin to rely on ourselves is Judas. However, he never recovered from his condition as far as we know. John warns in 1 John 1:8 “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” Again, my point is that eternal life is dependent upon our continual “walk in the light”, or another word that John loves to use, our believing.
John’s statement and Ellen White’s statement are not at odds because they were written for different purposes and audiences. John was dealing with believers who were beginning to doubt whether eternal life was provide through Christ. (Primarily because of the anti-Christians that we among them) Ellen White was dealing with the dangers of being self-reliant or self-confident.

“For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.” Philippians 3:3