Are there sincere seekers in hell?

JohnDB · Dec 9, 2020

Ok...
Joining in the fray...

Firstly...
I need to know WHY you are a "seeker". That you are is evidenced by your continued participation in a Christian Forum.

Why are you seeking? What is the Goal? Why is it important to YOU? What do you hope to gain by seeking?
Do you want the claims of eternal life to be true?
Why?

The answers you give will shape the answers I give. And I'm not much for arguing...so I'm not going to.

Redac · Dec 9, 2020

nvm, maybe later

Clizby WampusCat · Dec 9, 2020

Kenny'sID said:
Evidently there are those who may be unconvincable.

How do you substantiate this claim? Many theist put this forward to get out of the problem. It doesn't. It does not matter what I want to believe since we cannot choose what we believe. If God knows what would convince me he exists and I am not convinced then I can only conclude that God does not exist or that God does not want me to know he exists.

Because one, there is only one God,

How do you know this?

and to me it makes perfect sense that almighty God who did all the creating would leave his people with a word about who he is, who we are, and what the plan is.

How do you know the bible is that word?

Actually, a lot of this is about what makes the most sense.

What makes most sense it to believe something when you have good evidence that convinces you not bad evidence.

The big bang pretty much states just that.

No, it does not.

Or why bother with a different reason if we are thoroughly convinced already.

Because one of the reasons you said you believed is because you cannot think of a better reason. That is fallacious. If you have good reasons for belief then you don't have to look for alternate answers but if your reasons are faulty you do.

Clizby WampusCat · Dec 9, 2020

JohnDB said:
Ok...
Joining in the fray...

Firstly...
I need to know WHY you are a "seeker". That you are is evidenced by your continued participation in a Christian Forum.

Why are you seeking? What is the Goal? Why is it important to YOU? What do you hope to gain by seeking?

I want to know what is true. If a god exists I want to know that, If one does not then I want to know that. Currently there is no good evidence to be convinced that a god exists or does not exist.

Do you want the claims of eternal life to be true?

It depends on what that life is like.

Why?

Click to expand...

Generally, I would like to live eternally or at least until I decide to die. But that would be contingent on what that afterlife is.

The answers you give will shape the answers I give. And I'm not much for arguing...so I'm not going to.

Click to expand...

Are you up for a conversation or just give your response and go?

Click to expand...

Clizby WampusCat · Dec 9, 2020

Petros2015 said:
Ok. Well then, let's back this up a bit and pretend for a moment.

Are you seeking BigFoot? Or are you just thinking about seeking BigFoot? There's a pretty big difference.
Seeking is an action, not a thought about taking the action of seeking.
So...

#1 What gave you the idea that there might be a BigFoot to seek?

#2 How do you plan to go about seeking BigFoot?

When I say seeking I am talking about what the word means. It is an action, I am not talking about thinking about seeking.

Clizby WampusCat · Dec 9, 2020

Halbhh said:
You (me I mean) don't (most likely). Until later when perhaps one day you test a different instruction and get a result (repeated even!!) that could only be from God, as no other explanation is even possible to imagine.

This is where I disagree with your reasoning. If a reason for your belief is that you cannot think of another reason for the result instead of having good reasons for belief, then your reasoning is flawed.

I have a pretty good ability to come up with alternative hypotheses, so I needed a lot of repeated outcomes (amazing stuff often) in varied circumstances and conditions to believe in some of these things that were happening weren't just luck or some weird personal ability of myself somehow. Now this isn't quite what faith is -- faith is more like a relationship. But it is at least a good path to get to a better place!! That's definitely 100% for sure. And for me, being in that better place, after many years, might have helped me seek God finally.

I tried your method and got different results. That is not good scientific experimental results.

Kenny'sID · Dec 9, 2020

Clizby WampusCat said:
How do you substantiate this claim? Many theist put this forward to get out of the problem. It doesn't. It does not matter what I want to believe since we cannot choose what we believe. If God knows what would convince me he exists and I am not convinced then I can only conclude that God does not exist or that God does not want me to know he exists.

How do you know this?

How do you know the bible is that word?

What makes most sense it to believe something when you have good evidence that convinces you not bad evidence.

No, it does not.

Because one of the reasons you said you believed is because you cannot think of a better reason. That is fallacious. If you have good reasons for belief then you don't have to look for alternate answers but if your reasons are faulty you do.

You know, I won't have any trouble answering all those questions, but seems to me you are one of a common type people who will throw an argument up for anything and everything so what would be the point?

At this point, and with the same evidence the rest of us have, you choose not to believe...not uncommon, and nothing anyone but yourself can fix.

Clizby WampusCat · Dec 9, 2020

Kenny'sID said:
You know, I won't have any trouble answering all those questions,

Then answer them please.

but seems to me you are one of a common type people who will throw an argument up for anything and everything so what would be the point?

At this point, and with the same evidence the rest of us have, you choose not to believe...not uncommon, and nothing anyone but yourself can fix.

Can you address my point that no one can choose what they believe? You keep avoiding that issue.

Can you stop believing something that you are convinced is true? Can you start believing something that you are not convinced is true.

It is not that I choose not to believe god exists, it is that I am not convinced by the evidence I have investigated. I think believers believe for faulty reasons as I have pointed out here on this site. If there is evidence that convinces me then I will have no choice but to believe. I know you don't want to concede this because then you have theological problems. Divine hiddenness is the biggest question Christians need to have a good answer for.

Kenny'sID · Dec 9, 2020

Clizby WampusCat said:
Then answer them please.

Waste of time for reasons already mentioned.

JohnDB · Dec 9, 2020

Clizby WampusCat said:
I want to know what is true. If a god exists I want to know that, If one does not then I want to know that. Currently there is no good evidence to be convinced that a god exists or does not exist.

What difference is knowing going to effect change your life?
OR
How will you live your life differently knowing one way or another?

And finally...
How do you determine what is truth?

Hang with me here for a second and I can explain. Pretend for a moment that 20% of all firearm deaths/injuries are while committing crimes, 20% deaths/injuries are used to stop crimes, and 60% are from committing suicide.

Are you going to question the statistics?
Demand that your current position on firearms is still true?
Or change your view but click your tongue at the truth?
Both sides of the battle over firearms are true. (The two 20% sides) but they miss discussing the elephant in the room of suicide... meaning that only a small percentage of injuries are inflicted by others.

So...what would be the most important truth of a multi faceted truth? How is knowing these statistics going to affect your lifestyle?

Are you going to buy a gun? Sell your guns? Stop hunting? Or have your guns destroyed? Maybe move to another country that doesn't have any?

These are the questions that determine what you are willing to accept or not accept...and what you will do with the information.

Because as Rudi recently stated, "There is evidence, there's lots of evidence. Now whether the Judge wants to accept that evidence or considers it enough to overturn the Election is another matter...but there is evidence"

Clizby WampusCat · Dec 9, 2020

Kenny'sID said:
Waste of time for reasons already mentioned.

Ok, thanks for the discussion.

This is a common tactic by theists to avoid answering the divine hiddenness problem. Just say non believers choose not to believe and that the evidence is sufficient without actually discussing the topic in more depth as to why that is a wrong answer.

Maria Billingsley · Dec 9, 2020

Clizby WampusCat said:
But that does not mean we cannot know things with a high level of confidence. Certainty is impossible. I presuppose that everything exists as I perceive it and that the laws of logic are true everywhere. With those presuppositions I can objectively look at claims and evaluate them. I believe many things to be true without 100% certainty or proof. I believe my phone will connect to the internet when I turn it on even though I don't know the details of how it works. I believe my wife loves me even though I can never know with 100% certainty. I believe these things are true because of the evidence I can evaluate convinces me they are true. Certainty is an epistemological wall that no one knows yet how to penetrate.

Now will you tell me why you believe?

I believe God exists because of the evidence I can evaluate convinces me.

Clizby WampusCat · Dec 9, 2020

JohnDB said:
What difference is knowing going to effect change your life?
OR
How will you live your life differently knowing one way or another?

I will know what is true and can make decisions based on what is true.

And finally...
How do you determine what is truth?

This is not a quick question to answer. I have studied and thought about this for the last couple years. It is what led me to become unconvinced.

A short summary is that I have a couple of presuppositions:
1. What I perceive to be reality is actually reality. Solipsism is not true.
2. The laws of logic are true and do not change.

From there I can build upon those to objectively determine what is true. Everyone believes something because they are convinced by the evidence. No one can choose to believe something which they are not convinced is true. Evaluating the evidence is subjective, so one person may be convinced of a truth while another is not. It is important to not set your standards of evidence too low where you believe every claim or too high where you will never believe a claim.

How we evaluate evidence for claims is how we eventually determine what is true. This is a longer discussion but claims need to be demonstrated to be true based on reason and logic. Our standards will change based on the claim and how it affects you. If you told me you own a dog, I would believe you without further demonstration. A lot of people own dogs and it does not affect me in any way if I am wrong. If you told me to eat a pill and I could jump off a building and fly I would need a lot better evidence for that because if I a wrong it has drastic affect for me. A god claim is extraordinary and needs a higher level of evidence for belief for me.

Hang with me here for a second and I can explain. Pretend for a moment that 20% of all firearm deaths/injuries are while committing crimes, 20% deaths/injuries are used to stop crimes, and 60% are from committing suicide.

Are you going to question the statistics?
Demand that your current position on firearms is still true?
Or change your view but click your tongue at the truth?
Both sides of the battle over firearms are true. (The two 20% sides) but they miss discussing the elephant in the room of suicide... meaning that only a small percentage of injuries are inflicted by others.

So...what would be the most important truth of a multi faceted truth? How is knowing these statistics going to affect your lifestyle?

Are you going to buy a gun? Sell your guns? Stop hunting? Or have your guns destroyed? Maybe move to another country that doesn't have any?

These are the questions that determine what you are willing to accept or not accept...and what you will do with the information.

Because as Rudi recently stated, "There is evidence, there's lots of evidence. Now whether the Judge wants to accept that evidence or considers it enough to overturn the Election is another matter...but there is evidence"

I never said there was not any evidence for God. The evidence I have evaluated so far does not convince me. If you have evidence to share I will tell you why it does or does not convince me.

Clizby WampusCat · Dec 9, 2020

Maria Billingsley said:
I believe God exists because of the evidence I can evaluate convinces me.

I assume you are not going to tell me what that evidence is.

Maria Billingsley · Dec 9, 2020

Clizby WampusCat said:
I assume you are not going to tell me what that evidence is.

How could you understand it ? I am in the same position you are in. You seek to find the evidence He exists and I seek to find the evidence that He does not exist. You do not understand my position and I do not understand your position. It is a mystery. We will leave it at that.

Clizby WampusCat · Dec 9, 2020

Maria Billingsley said:
How could you understand it ? I am in the same position you are in. You seek to find the evidence He exists and I seek to find the evidence that He does not exist. You do not understand my position and I do not understand your position. It is a mystery. We will leave it at that.

You said that you believed the evidence there is a god. All I am asking is what is that evidence? In light of 1 Peter 3:15 why would you not share that evidence? I spent a lot of time answering your questions and giving my ideas about finding truth. Now why won't you answer my questions?

Maria Billingsley · Dec 9, 2020

Clizby WampusCat said:
You said that you believed the evidence there is a god. All I am asking is what is that evidence? In light of 1 Peter 3:15 why would you not share that evidence? I spent a lot of time answering your questions and giving my ideas about finding truth. Now why won't you answer my questions?

Because you will not believe me. You have spent years seeking, searching, questioning and it has gotten you no where. What I have to say will not make a bit of difference. You have quenched the work of the Holy Spirit so no amount of truth will pernitrate your condition. Doubt.

Maria Billingsley · Dec 9, 2020

Clizby WampusCat said:
You said that you believed the evidence there is a god. All I am asking is what is that evidence? In light of 1 Peter 3:15 why would you not share that evidence? I spent a lot of time answering your questions and giving my ideas about finding truth. Now why won't you answer my questions?

To add to my previous comment...
You claim to be an Atheist, yet no true Atheist would be caught dead seeking God. They KNOW God does not exist. So my friend, stop hiding behind a label that you do not carry. Admit you have doubted all your life and now you are faced with a decision you are not willing to make.

Petros2015 · Dec 9, 2020

Clizby WampusCat said:
You said that you believed the evidence there is a god. All I am asking is what is that evidence?

You were talking about hunting Bigfoot earlier.
This particular BigFoot left some VERY big BigFoot footprints.
The Universe, for one. The biggest most unimaginably impossibly large footprint there could be.
Consciousness, for another.
Good, for another.
Evil, for another.
Conscience, for another.
Calvary, for another.

Petros2015 · Dec 9, 2020

I'm telling you it's a very BIG BigFoot.

Are there sincere seekers in hell?

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