Are there sincere seekers in hell?

Clizby WampusCat · Dec 8, 2020

Maria Billingsley said:
I guess I should correct the word "believe" to "believed".
So from what I can gather, at one time you had proof and were able to affirm all of these facts however now you have proof telling you otherwise. If I may ask, what is the most compelling proof that led you to deny Him?

Proof is something we cannot attain. I thought I had good reasons to believe, I was convinced by them. Once I learned how to examine those reasons I realized none of those reasons I gave were sufficient for belief and I became unconvinced. I don't deny God, I just don't have sufficient evidence to believe He exists. He could, I just need good convincing evidence to believe. Just like you do.

Clizby WampusCat · Dec 8, 2020

Halbhh said:
Faith/grace result in works -- it's like John chapter 15, verses 1-17. I'd suggest to also read Ephesians chapter 2, verses 1-10, and in a good translation like the NIV.

Here:
John 15 NIV (verses 1-17)
(we only bear good fruit from Him, through Him)

Ephesians 2 NIV (verses 1-10)

I am aware. However, you gave a list of things I needed to do to be saved. Are those not works?

Clizby WampusCat · Dec 8, 2020

Kenny'sID said:
Funny how OP never anwered my question on what it would take to convince them.

The answer is I don't know. Nobody knows what will convince them until they are convinced of any claim. No one decides to believe something, we believe when the evidence reaches our own individual threshold of evidence for belief. When I was a believer my threshold was too low. I learned that to know truth a certain kind of evidence is needed. My became unconvinced becasue me standard of evidence went up to where I have a better probability of knowing what is true.

Funny how no one responds to my answer to this question when I say God knows what would convince me. So if He knows and I am unconvinced I have two conclusions. Either He does not exist or He does not want me to know he exists.

Maybe some refuse to be convinced, I mean its tough to give them what they need to be convinced if they themselves don't know, or won't tell.

Maybe some do. That is not me. Pleas respond to my answer above.

Kenny'sID · Dec 8, 2020

Clizby WampusCat said:
Funny how no one responds to my answer to this question when I say God knows what would convince me. So if He knows and I am unconvinced I have two conclusions. Either He does not exist or He does not want me to know he exists.

Or you don't want to know he exists.

As I said in mt first post here, many have been convinced, so maybe its not God who is the problem. Seems I recall you going on about not blaming you, but maybe you should give that serious consideration.

Lukaris · Dec 8, 2020

cvanwey said:
Here lies the crux...

According to the Bible, ALL will fall short 'morally'. If you claim you are a Christian, and your intentions are pure, you will still break 'God's law(s)'

It is said that all humans lie daily. Though you may be able to rationalize many of them, isn't this 'sin' alone against God's law? Assuming you agree up to this point, does God prioritize some 'sin' above others i.e. (lie>theft>extortion)? Or, are they ALL 'bad' to God?

So now we are back to salvation by grace alone, or grace by faith...????.?.?.?

Thus, your above answer of 'yes', raises more questions than to provide resolution, it seems

Looks as though an excellent case can be made, using Scripture, that an 'unresolved seeker' is damned to hell. And of course, you might be able to sight some passages to contradict this assertion. But, isn't this what makes the Bible so 'interesting'?

St. Paul in Romans 1 & Romans 3 speaks of the entire human race in sin. Romans 2 clearly addresses the conduct of the individual & the role the conscience; God has not put us in a catch 22. Romans 5:12-21 speaks primarily of death reigning because of the sin of Adam.

In Orthodoxy we understand sin as mortal & moral. We all suffer the consequence of death but not mutual moral guilt although a sinful propensity developed. It was Cain who actually activated our moral decay ( 1 John 3:11-12).

St. Irenaeus wrote in the late 2nd century, “Being outside of paradise, Adam and his wife Eve fell into many misfortunes, walking upon this world with much sadness and toils and lamenting, for beneath the heat of this sun man tilled the earth, but it brought forth thorns and thistles, the punishment of sin. Then came to pass what was written, ‘Adam knew his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, and after this bore Abel.’ But the apostate angel, who also led the man into disobedience and made (him) a sinner and was the cause of his expulsion from paradise, not satisfied with the first, wrought a second evil upon the brothers. For he filled Cain with his own spirit and made of him a fratricide. And so, in this way, Abel died, killed by his brother, signifying that thenceforth some would be persecuted, oppressed and killed, while the unjust would kill and persecute the righteous.”

St. Irenaeus, On the Apostolic Preaching

per Genesis 3:17-19, Genesis 4:1-2, Genesis 4:8, 1 John 3:12, Genesis 4:17-24, Genesis 4:25

While I do not claim to understand the book of Revelation well, some parts seem clear in a general sense but still as a mystery. The part I think is pertinent here is the great white throne of judgment ( Revelation 20:11-15). Clearly there is a judgment of works in which some will be in the book of life & others not. This is God’s judgment; how can I presume to know it’s entirety? It should seem clear that neither heaven or hell is automatic. As Christians we are called to salvation by grace ( Ephesians 2:8-10) and this is clearly a commitment ( for ex. Ephesians 4 ). Clearly we are at least to pray for all ( 1 Timothy 2:1-4).

Halbhh · Dec 8, 2020

Clizby WampusCat said:
I am aware. However, you gave a list of things I needed to do to be saved. Are those not works?

Listening? Being humble? No, those are attitudes. A work is something like doing an act of charity, for instance.

Clizby WampusCat · Dec 8, 2020

Kenny'sID said:
Or you don't want to know he exists.

Which is not an option because I know I want to know what is true. You don't know my own mind, I do. This is just a cop out for you because you have no other answer.

It really does not matter if I want to believe or not. Does God know what will convince me he exists? If not, then that contradicts the bible. If so, he can convince me so we are here at the same point. Either god does not exist or God does not want me to to know He exists.

As I said in mt first post here, many have been convinced, so maybe its not God who is the problem. Seems I recall you going on about not blaming you, but maybe you should give that serious consideration.

I have always posted here that I want to know truth. That is how I became unconvinced. Give me good reasons to believe and I will have no choice but to believe. Belief is not a choice for any claim.

Clizby WampusCat · Dec 8, 2020

Halbhh said:
Listening? Being humble? No, those are attitudes. A work is something like doing an act of charity, for instance.

This is what you wrote:

Halbhh said:
God, Christ, would be the one Who knows more, Who would know the answer better than anyone mortal. We do at least understand that includes words via the prophets like Jeremiah who are conveying from the Lord. So when I read Jeremiah 29:13 You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. then I remember the "all of your heart" and know then that this is a kind of all-in. It's like someone that runs out and leaps to try to cross the chasm, jumps out into the air over the cliff face, a kind of total "all-in" real leap, to use a metaphor. It wasn't...where I'd been. It was leaping into the unknown. "All" was itself an act of faith, itself. And since God gives grace to the humble, then several key things were happening: I was humble (truly), and all-in totally with all of my heart, and had been earnestly also doing the instructions Christ said to do, and also I was reading His words, and keeping them in my mind, in an ongoing way. None of that was by plan. It just came about over time. So, seeking of this kind is a kind of truly...different thing than just trying to find something for a few days. It's more as if it was had-to. I was seeking as if it was life or death. It was a total. Because He is God, and to seek the infinite, while being finite, is...risking total utter change, it's like giving up what you were, because you are finite and may be acted on by the infinite, so it already involved willingness to lose all I had in a sense -- what I thought of as self -- because I was truly risking that all I knew/lived might get replaced by a new reality.

These are not attitudes but works. Doing Christs instructions is working for salvation.

Halbhh · Dec 8, 2020

Clizby WampusCat said:
This is what you wrote:

These are not attitudes but works. Doing Christs instructions is working for salvation.

Best to simply try what He says, is my experience. I didnt believe when I first began to try His instructions.

Lukaris · Dec 8, 2020

Clizby WampusCat said:
Can a person know if they are saved?

No, we can have confidence ( Ephesians 3:12 within the overall context of Ephesians 3:1-13). St. Paul also warns in Romans 11:19-23 within the overall message of Romans 11. Also, Colossians 1:21-23, & refer to & within Colossians 1:15-23 etc.

Kenny'sID · Dec 9, 2020

Clizby WampusCat said:
This is just a cop out for you because you have no other answer.

Or that is your own copout because you are at a loss for answers, since you are unwilling to settle for what other Christians see/settle for. That answer is likely just your unwillingness to admit it's you, and that you have a lack of faith. We get what we get, same as everyone gets, and take the rest by faith.

Clizby WampusCat said:
It really does not matter if I want to believe or not. Does God know what will convince me he exists? If not, then that contradicts the bible. If so, he can convince me so we are here at the same point. Either god does not exist or God does not want me to to know He exists.

You want God to make special arrangments just for you, but why do you think you should get special treatment? Again, you get what the rest of us have to work with, as it would be unfair to the rest of us if God popped in and slapped the moon out of the sky for a time just to make you believe.

NBB · Dec 9, 2020

Clizby WampusCat said:
The bible refutes this in many ways.

God was harsh about sin, but he doesn't enjoy the suffering of man.

Clizby WampusCat · Dec 9, 2020

Halbhh said:
Best to simply try what He says, is my experience. I didnt believe when I first began to try His instructions.

I did this. I was a believer when I started doing what Jesus taught.

Clizby WampusCat · Dec 9, 2020

Lukaris said:
No, we can have confidence ( Ephesians 3:12 within the overall context of Ephesians 3:1-13). St. Paul also warns in Romans 11:19-23 within the overall message of Romans 11. Also, Colossians 1:21-23, & refer to & within Colossians 1:15-23 etc.

If we cannot know we are saved then I don't see how that is good news. Seems to set up a system of worry and not restfulness.

Clizby WampusCat · Dec 9, 2020

Kenny'sID said:
Or that is your own copout because you are at a loss for answers, since you are unwilling to settle for what other Christians see/settle for. That answer is likely just your unwillingness to admit it's you, and that you have a lack of faith. We get what we get, same as everyone gets, and take the rest by faith.

I admit I have a lack of faith. That is in the definition of atheist. What else in life do you take with the same faith as you exercise for faith in God? You can believe anything with that kind of faith. Why shouldn't I believe in Allah or Big Foot with the same faith?

You want God to make special arrangments just for you, but why do you think you should get special treatment? Again, you get what the rest of us have to work with, as it would be unfair to the rest of us if God popped in and slapped the moon out of the sky for a time just to make you believe.

Paul, Moses, Joseph etc. received special revelations. Does God play favorites? I don't want special arrangements. I want convincing evidence. That should not be hard if God exists and wants me to know that he exists. You are convinced god exists by some evidence, that is the same as I want. I cannot choose to believe god exists just like you cannot choose to believe big foot exists.

Instead of telling me that I am the problem maybe tell me why you believe? What evidence do you believe is sufficient for belief? This is what the bible says for you to do.

Clizby WampusCat · Dec 9, 2020

NBB said:
God was harsh about sin, but he doesn't enjoy the suffering of man.

The fact is that God does not stop extreme suffering, He does say that we should rejoice in our suffering. Romans 5:3-5. or count our sufferings as joyous James 1:2-4, or Philippians 1:29 says that we will suffer for Jesus sake. He uses it for His purposes which is immoral in my opinion.

Maria Billingsley · Dec 9, 2020

Clizby WampusCat said:
Proof is something we cannot attain. I thought I had good reasons to believe, I was convinced by them. Once I learned how to examine those reasons I realized none of those reasons I gave were sufficient for belief and I became unconvinced. I don't deny God, I just don't have sufficient evidence to believe He exists. He could, I just need good convincing evidence to believe. Just like you do.

I understand now. In the 80`s I was convinced that following Maharishi Mahesh Yogi was the way to enlightenment. I was presented a set of facts with evidence that this was the way to live my life. Soon after I came to realize through this very movement that there was no room for the Supreme God I held dear to, Jesus Christ of Nazareth. I then was faced with a choice and chose my first love. Go back to your first love then that door you seek to have opened will be there. Be blessed.

Halbhh · Dec 9, 2020

Clizby WampusCat said:
I did this. I was a believer when I started doing what Jesus taught.

The immediate life benefits here and now from doing things like "love your neighbor" and "forgive seventy times seven" (over and over), to forgive people that haven't earned it -- those were such a huge change for the better for me, a non believer back then.

I was gaining these big improvements in my life. I went from a fairly good life experience to a far better one.

After doing these for quite a while, then I began to wonder: what else did He say that works really great? So I tried more things He said.

It was all about having a really better life, here and now.

Clizby WampusCat · Dec 9, 2020

Maria Billingsley said:
I understand now. In the 80`s I was convinced that following Maharishi Mahesh Yogi was the way to enlightenment. I was presented a set of facts with evidence that this was the way to live my life. Soon after I came to realize through this very movement that there was no room for the Supreme God I held dear to, Jesus Christ of Nazareth. I then was faced with a choice and chose my first love. Go back to your first love then that door you seek to have opened will be there. Be blessed.

It all comes down to why we should believe something is true. I need good evidence to go back to believing God exists. Do you have any?

Clizby WampusCat · Dec 9, 2020

Halbhh said:
The immediate life benefits here and now from doing things like "love your neighbor" and "forgive seventy times seven" (over and over), to forgive people that haven't earned it -- those were such a huge change for the better for me, a non believer back then.

I was gaining these big improvements in my life. I went from a fairly good life experience to a far better one.

After doing these for quite a while, then I began to wonder: what else did He say that works really great? So I tried more things He said.

It was all about having a really better life, here and now.

I glad your life improved. Why do you credit a God for it? I could get a self help book with good advice that will improve my life.

Are there sincere seekers in hell?

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