Are there different definitions of the "once saved, always saved" doctrine?

Sketcher said:

Seems more like he was talking about Sceva's sons to me. Luke did not say that they were believers.

Click to expand...

No, because Sceva's sons couldn't cast out demons.

1stcenturylady said:

No, because Sceva's sons couldn't cast out demons.

Click to expand...

Fair enough. But the Pharisees had followers that allegedly could (Luke 11:19).

Sketcher said:

Fair enough. But the Pharisees had followers that allegedly could (Luke 11:19).

Click to expand...

But the Pharisees weren't using Jesus' name.

JESUS=G.O.A.T said:

1. IN 1 john 2:1 it says sin not but then says "if ye sin"

in other words it's possible to sin again after being saved...one just has to seek forgiveness.

Click to expand...

1John 2:1. Is addressing "little children".
Are you among the little children just learning about God and need to be told to not Sin and need to be told you might still Sin while you are learning because you are not yet Saved?

IOW it is possible to Sin While a person is first learning About God Before they commit to conversion.

The disciples learning about Jesus Sinned every time they doubted and Denied Jesus...
But that changed ONCE they became Saved and Converted.

2. Again i'm still waiting for a scripture that supports OSAS though... when are you going to post one?

Click to expand...

It is the Transgression of Disbelief in God that IS mans Sin Againt God.
It is mans Disbelief that corrupts the Whole of a man, body, soul & spirit.

It is ONLY the Lord Himself Who forgives Sin Against Him.

It is ONLY the Lord Himself Who transforms a mans body To being Dead with Christ, the mans soul restored &
receiving a new spirit from Gods Seed.

This IS Gods Way, His method that IS acceptable TO HIM for a man to be converted & Freed From Sin.
Such a man Can No longer Sin.
Such a man IS Born OF God.
Such a man IS a son OF God.
1 John 3:9

3. No brother.....we are more a like then you think. We both agree...that it's possible not to sin....but we disagree on the notion that one can if they want to choose to sin and leave God.

Click to expand...

No.
You believe it is possible to not Sin.
I do not believe "possibility" to Sin or to not Sin is part of the equation.

ONCE "possibly" enters the equation, it becomes a matter of choice.

I have heard others debate on the "possibility" equation before concerning
Jesus, saying it was possible for Him to Sin, but He chose not to Sin, which Is Ludicrous!

That which IS Born OF God CAN NOT Sin.
There are Zero choices or possibilities in the matter.

The Word of God, IS God Himself, being He own Word coming forth out of His Mouth And Speaking His Creations Into Existance.

So also With His Word IS His supreme Power that causes His spoken Word To be Effected.

Gen 1 informs you
God SAID and His Spirit effected what He Said.

Other Scriptures inform you
Gods Spirit IS His Power
Gods Word He Named Jesus
Gods Power He Named Christ
Gods Word a man learns and Believes Is the "beginning" of a mans faith.
Not a commitment but A beginning.
Any man can begin anything without a commitment.
This are those Who begin and Then Fall Away.

Precisely It is the Uncommited Who absolutely Can continue to Sin, Stop Believing, and Fall Away.

Men can even Make commitments To marriages, sign Contracts And Then BREAK their Commitment.

That Is a WEAKNESS of a man.
Not a secret. Men are WEAK. They have not the Power to Keep their Word. And No Earthly born man Is an Exception to that fact.

Then you need to know Why men ARE weak.
A mans Weakness Is Because
A man does NOT know All Things.

Men commit to marriages not knowing their spouse may be a lying, cheating scoundrel or agree to a contract not knowing they may lose their job and can not pay for all the commitments they contractually agreed to pay for.

A "commitment" a man makes TO God is NOT
With HOPE he will keep TRUE to his commitment. It is NOT with POSSIBILITY the man will Fail To Keep His commitment.

Why?

Because The Commitment is NOT effected and Kept TRUE BY the power of man!

Any man that HAS committed his Life TO God, IS KEPT TRUE and Faithful To God ONLY "BY"
Gods Supreme Power.

Gods Power forgives a mans Sin, reconciles the man, and BY God making the man Whole, the man is Not capable of ever Sinning Again.
And WHY such a man IS FREED From Sin.

1 john 2:1 points clearly that it's possible to not sin after repenting ni 1 john 1 but it also indicates that it's possible to sin when it says "if you sin".

Click to expand...

Are you a Jew, who for centuries have sinned and then held your yearly traditions and festivals to become forgiven your sins ?

I'm not. Are you a Jew learning you have an Advocate in Jesus who can Forgive you sins ONCE and for all ?

I'm not.

Did Jesus Destroy or somehow Repeal all of the Laws and traditions of Jewish Laws?
No He didn't.

Scriptures are not Only For OR About Christians.

Scriptures Include Applicability To every earthy born person.

If you comprehend THAT... then you like every individual should KNOW which Scriptures APPLY to You and which Scriptures
DO NOT APPLY to you.

Because if is utilized me and you can both agree which we do...that it's possible to not sin. But "if" also implies it can/could happen.

Click to expand...

IF does NOT APPLY to me.
Gods Power IS with me which supersedes the possibility of IF.

Again i'm just going off bible verses...i'm waiting for you to do that also...

Click to expand...

Again learn which Scriptures APPLY to you and WHY and then learn which Scriptures do not apply to you and WHY the don't.

Scriptures are full of IF'S.
If you do such n such Then such n such SHALL be.

I don't know what you have done.
However I do know what I have done.
I trust The Word of God is True and when His Word says IF I do such n such Then such is what He SHALL do I trust that is then accomplishED.

I trust because of what I have chosen to do that God has accomplished making me Wholly Whole, Sanctified and wholly acceptable unto Him.

Am I wholly acceptable to all men ?
Not by a long shot.
Does it matter?
No.
I have no requirement to commit myself or be faithful to all other men.
I simply am commanded to love all men and treat them justly and works I do in the Lords Name ARE expressly to be works that Glorify His great Names.

1 John 3:9
Applies to me. Though I am Weak I have committed my life To The Lord and His Power has reconciled me wholly unto Him that I am FREED From Sin and Sin no more, BY His great Word and Power which is forever with and in me.

God Bless,
SBC

ONCE SAVED

Is Saving that Has Been Accomplished.

That which Has Been Accomplished IN and BY The Lord does Not Become UNaccoomplished!

GOD Bless,
SBC

SBC said:

ONCE SAVED

Is Saving that Has Been Accomplished.

That which Has Been Accomplished IN and BY The Lord does Not Become UNaccoomplished!

GOD Bless,
SBC

Click to expand...

I understand what you’re saying I just want scripture

SBC said:

1John 2:1. Is addressing "little children".
Are you among the little children just learning about God and need to be told to not Sin and need to be told you might still Sin while you are learning because you are not yet Saved?

IOW it is possible to Sin While a person is first learning About God Before they commit to conversion.

The disciples learning about Jesus Sinned every time they doubted and Denied Jesus...
But that changed ONCE they became Saved and Converted.



It is the Transgression of Disbelief in God that IS mans Sin Againt God.
It is mans Disbelief that corrupts the Whole of a man, body, soul & spirit.

It is ONLY the Lord Himself Who forgives Sin Against Him.

It is ONLY the Lord Himself Who transforms a mans body To being Dead with Christ, the mans soul restored &
receiving a new spirit from Gods Seed.

This IS Gods Way, His method that IS acceptable TO HIM for a man to be converted & Freed From Sin.
Such a man Can No longer Sin.
Such a man IS Born OF God.
Such a man IS a son OF God.
1 John 3:9




No.
You believe it is possible to not Sin.
I do not believe "possibility" to Sin or to not Sin is part of the equation.

ONCE "possibly" enters the equation, it becomes a matter of choice.

I have heard others debate on the "possibility" equation before concerning
Jesus, saying it was possible for Him to Sin, but He chose not to Sin, which Is Ludicrous!

That which IS Born OF God CAN NOT Sin.
There are Zero choices or possibilities in the matter.

The Word of God, IS God Himself, being He own Word coming forth out of His Mouth And Speaking His Creations Into Existance.

So also With His Word IS His supreme Power that causes His spoken Word To be Effected.

Gen 1 informs you
God SAID and His Spirit effected what He Said.

Other Scriptures inform you
Gods Spirit IS His Power
Gods Word He Named Jesus
Gods Power He Named Christ
Gods Word a man learns and Believes Is the "beginning" of a mans faith.
Not a commitment but A beginning.
Any man can begin anything without a commitment.
This are those Who begin and Then Fall Away.

Precisely It is the Uncommited Who absolutely Can continue to Sin, Stop Believing, and Fall Away.

Men can even Make commitments To marriages, sign Contracts And Then BREAK their Commitment.

That Is a WEAKNESS of a man.
Not a secret. Men are WEAK. They have not the Power to Keep their Word. And No Earthly born man Is an Exception to that fact.

Then you need to know Why men ARE weak.
A mans Weakness Is Because
A man does NOT know All Things.

Men commit to marriages not knowing their spouse may be a lying, cheating scoundrel or agree to a contract not knowing they may lose their job and can not pay for all the commitments they contractually agreed to pay for.

A "commitment" a man makes TO God is NOT
With HOPE he will keep TRUE to his commitment. It is NOT with POSSIBILITY the man will Fail To Keep His commitment.

Why?

Because The Commitment is NOT effected and Kept TRUE BY the power of man!

Any man that HAS committed his Life TO God, IS KEPT TRUE and Faithful To God ONLY "BY"
Gods Supreme Power.

Gods Power forgives a mans Sin, reconciles the man, and BY God making the man Whole, the man is Not capable of ever Sinning Again.
And WHY such a man IS FREED From Sin.




Are you a Jew, who for centuries have sinned and then held your yearly traditions and festivals to become forgiven your sins ?

I'm not. Are you a Jew learning you have an Advocate in Jesus who can Forgive you sins ONCE and for all ?

I'm not.

Did Jesus Destroy or somehow Repeal all of the Laws and traditions of Jewish Laws?
No He didn't.

Scriptures are not Only For OR About Christians.

Scriptures Include Applicability To every earthy born person.

If you comprehend THAT... then you like every individual should KNOW which Scriptures APPLY to You and which Scriptures
DO NOT APPLY to you.



IF does NOT APPLY to me.
Gods Power IS with me which supersedes the possibility of IF.



Again learn which Scriptures APPLY to you and WHY and then learn which Scriptures do not apply to you and WHY the don't.

Scriptures are full of IF'S.
If you do such n such Then such n such SHALL be.

I don't know what you have done.
However I do know what I have done.
I trust The Word of God is True and when His Word says IF I do such n such Then such is what He SHALL do I trust that is then accomplishED.

I trust because of what I have chosen to do that God has accomplished making me Wholly Whole, Sanctified and wholly acceptable unto Him.

Am I wholly acceptable to all men ?
Not by a long shot.
Does it matter?
No.
I have no requirement to commit myself or be faithful to all other men.
I simply am commanded to love all men and treat them justly and works I do in the Lords Name ARE expressly to be works that Glorify His great Names.

1 John 3:9
Applies to me. Though I am Weak I have committed my life To The Lord and His Power has reconciled me wholly unto Him that I am FREED From Sin and Sin no more, BY His great Word and Power which is forever with and in me.

God Bless,
SBC

Click to expand...

First of all I can respect you for one thing....unlike the other guy you have a framework that makes it to where your argument can actually function. You unlike him decide to go with the framework that one doesn't sin anymore....which as I pointed out to the other guy is the only way OSAS can function. Because if one can still sin...they can still fall. So i'm glad you fixed that hole.


LEts get to your argument now.


1. You make the argument that 1 john 2:1 is addressing little children in the faith but you are wrong for multiple reasons.

A. little children in the greek when utilized in the NT comes from the word teknon and whenever it's utilized in the NT it refers to a term teachers use for their disciples.


B. The whole chapter is abouve the advocate one has with teh Father...so although I disagree with this argument. A better argument would be that they are being compared to the Father as children.


C. Paul was old in the faith and just old in general usually elders even now address young men in a childlike manner.


2. Again 1 john 3:9 is referring to continuous sin not just any discrete sin

I just took statistics recently so let me help you out

continuous = constant

discrete= is limited...might be one or two and stop there.

1 john 3:9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.


Conclusion: I used to have this same misconception as you of john 1:-john 3. I used to think john 1 was them starting off as sinners.....john 2 was the next stage and john 2:1 functioned as a just incase for little newborn babes to repent just incase they sin starting out.....and john 3:1 is when you reach your final stage and no longer sin. But after analyzing these scriptures I realize that's an incorrect interpretation looking at other scriptures helped me realize this too I will send the others to you in my other reply. Also Paul wrote all these at the same time...in one letter...to a group of people.... so it can't be a stage thing. It was written as a collective to one group.

SBC said:

ONCE SAVED

Is Saving that Has Been Accomplished.

That which Has Been Accomplished IN and BY The Lord does Not Become UNaccoomplished!

GOD Bless,
SBC

Click to expand...

It can if someone chooses to stop it though....by suggesting it can't be stopped you're suggesting one doesn't have free will? Also I have straight up biblical and anecdotal evidence...my brother was saved living for God...he left. I have other examples too. But here are some of the scriptures I have that point out that you're wrong...that OSAS isn't true.


2 corithians 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?


Comment: One can depart the faith and even reach reprobate status.... reprobate means... failing to pass....unapproved....counterfeit (if you read in romans 1:16-28 you will see there's no return from this which disproves OSAS)



2 Corinthians 13:5King James Version (KJV)
5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?


1 Timothy 4:1King James Version (KJV)
4 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;


Here's a great example here...one that was once saved following Paul but he left.

2 Timothy 4:10King James Version (KJV)
10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.

JESUS=G.O.A.T said:

LEts get to your argument now.


1. You make the argument that 1 john 2:1 is addressing little children in the faith but you are wrong for multiple reasons.

A. little children in the greek when utilized in the NT comes from the word teknon and whenever it's utilized in the NT it refers to a term teachers use for their disciples.


B. The whole chapter is abouve the advocate one has with teh Father...so although I disagree with this argument. A better argument would be that they are being compared to the Father as children.


C. Paul was old in the faith and just old in general usually elders even now address young men in a childlike manner.


2. Again 1 john 3:9 is referring to continuous sin not just any discrete sin

I just took statistics recently so let me help you out

continuous = constant

discrete= is limited...might be one or two and stop there.

1 john 3:9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.


Conclusion: I used to have this same misconception as you of john 1:-john 3. I used to think john 1 was them starting off as sinners.....john 2 was the next stage and john 2:1 functioned as a just incase for little newborn babes to repent just incase they sin starting out.....and john 3:1 is when you reach your final stage and no longer sin. But after analyzing these scriptures I realize that's an incorrect interpretation looking at other scriptures helped me realize this too I will send the others to you in my other reply. Also Paul wrote all these at the same time...in one letter...to a group of people.... so it can't be a stage thing. It was written as a collective to one group.

Click to expand...

First let me say I am responding from my phone and have not mastered typing on a 3" pretend keyboard lol nor know how to copy n paste and am sure spelling errors are plenty.

1)
A disciple is a follower.
Being a follower does not mean specifically according to a timeframe. A follower could be for a small amount of time or a long time.

Remember Jesus' chosen 12 -1 disciples were followers learning way more than they ever wrote about.

Some disciples become Apostles, some remain disciples. All who lay down their life for Jesus becomes a Friend of Jesus.

Every follower of Jesus has an Advocate in Jesus, Who will speak on their behalf and do on their behalf.

Remember testimony and preparation for you is not only on earth but also IN heaven and That is effected through Jesus.

However ONCE a man has laid down his life for Jesus it's a whole new ballgame.

John 13-14

Forgive my paraphrasing...
But basically a couple of the disciples are saying ya ya Jesus... but when are you gunna show us the Father... and Jesus is basically saying you are looking at Him.
They did Not understand.
Jesus knew they would not understand and Why.

Jesus told them flat out He was telling them ahead of time what would happen SO they would believe Him when they would see it happen.

They as Jesus knew Would Be receiving the Holy Spirit After Jesus bodily ascended to heaven.

They BY receiving the Holy Spirit would THEN be prepared to receive the Understanding.

What applied to THEM applies to every man who receives the Holy Spirit- they are prepared to receive the Understanding of Scriptures.

How ? By ASKING!

Who?

God.

Who? Jesus their Advocate who will then be the middle buffer between man and God?

No. By asking Jesus directly and then being given the Understanding He is God.
He is The Word of God. He is the Power of God. He acts on the power OF Himself.

He reveals the Understanding OF Himself, By His own Holy Spirit.

I have no more Advocate middle buffer between God and myself. He who Was my Advocate has given me His Spirit and His Understanding to Know He Is God.
I have been given direct access to God 24-7
To Ask or tell Him whatever I please.

The teaching of that in Scriptures IS for the benefit of all men.

I don't need to relearn or redo what I have already accomplished learning and doing.
Neither does the Lord need to redo or reaccomplish what He has already accomplished IN me.

I am already Prepared for Him to Redeem me on His chosen Day. I simply WAIT for others to be born, hear, learn, accomplish, become reconciled {or not} till Gods next phase of His plan is accomplished.

Yes, Paul was of old long time Faith in God..
While he was like most Jews then and still Now, without Understanding.

Paul could Not Understand Christ Jesus IS God. It was totally against Jewish teachings to see A MAN and trust to believe A MERE MAN could possibly Be God. Yikes.. Especially some nobody from Nazareth without riches and position... pfft you got to be kidding..
Was the consensus among the Jewish clergy.

And as well Paul's consensus As he Himself was a Pharisee.

But then Paul has a revelation from the Lord and then Paul pretty much separates himself from other men to steep himself in knowledge of the Lord, becoming prepared to serve the Lord in the manner according to what the Lord has chosen for him to do. Acts.

Does Paul struggle with being in a physically alive and spiritually dead and spiritually alive body? Absolutely as do most Converted men.

You repeated 1 John 3:9 from your chosen Bible but failed to render How will not continue to Sin, can not go on sinning
Is different than me saying
Sins no more.
Can not Sin.

Is your Understanding you think there IS a choice in the matter concerning a man born of God ?

If not then why do you think we are not saying the same thing?

If so, you think it hinges on the choice and will power of a man...

How so?

God Bless,
SBC

SBC said:

First let me say I am responding from my phone and have not mastered typing on a 3" pretend keyboard lol nor know how to copy n paste and am sure spelling errors are plenty.

1)
A disciple is a follower.
Being a follower does not mean specifically according to a timeframe. A follower could be for a small amount of time or a long time.

Remember Jesus' chosen 12 -1 disciples were followers learning way more than they ever wrote about.

Some disciples become Apostles, some remain disciples. All who lay down their life for Jesus becomes a Friend of Jesus.

Every follower of Jesus has an Advocate in Jesus, Who will speak on their behalf and do on their behalf.

Remember testimony and preparation for you is not only on earth but also IN heaven and That is effected through Jesus.

However ONCE a man has laid down his life for Jesus it's a whole new ballgame.

John 13-14

Forgive my paraphrasing...
But basically a couple of the disciples are saying ya ya Jesus... but when are you gunna show us the Father... and Jesus is basically saying you are looking at Him.
They did Not understand.
Jesus knew they would not understand and Why.

Jesus told them flat out He was telling them ahead of time what would happen SO they would believe Him when they would see it happen.

Click to expand...

They as Jesus knew Would Be receiving the Holy Spirit After Jesus bodily ascended to heaven.

Click to expand...

They had received the breath of new life already which was for their living in Him.

They BY receiving the Holy Spirit would THEN be prepared to receive the Understanding.

Click to expand...

Understanding is for us the mirror that gets clearer every day.
The anointing on those for service comes later after understanding.

Luke 24:45-4
Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things. I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”

Their minds were opened so understanding of the scriptures was given to them. But to be effective witnesses they needed to wait to be clothed with power from on high.

What applied to THEM applies to every man who receives the Holy Spirit- they are prepared to receive the Understanding of Scriptures.

How ? By ASKING!

Who?

God.

Who? Jesus their Advocate who will then be the middle buffer between man and God?

No. By asking Jesus directly and then being given the Understanding He is God.
He is The Word of God. He is the Power of God. He acts on the power OF Himself.

He reveals the Understanding OF Himself, By His own Holy Spirit.

I have no more Advocate middle buffer between God and myself. He who Was my Advocate has given me His Spirit and His Understanding to Know He Is God.
I have been given direct access to God 24-7
To Ask or tell Him whatever I please.

The teaching of that in Scriptures IS for the benefit of all men.

I don't need to relearn or redo what I have already accomplished learning and doing.
Neither does the Lord need to redo or reaccomplish what He has already accomplished IN me.

I am already Prepared for Him to Redeem me on His chosen Day. I simply WAIT for others to be born, hear, learn, accomplish, become reconciled {or not} till Gods next phase of His plan is accomplished.

Yes, Paul was of old long time Faith in God..
While he was like most Jews then and still Now, without Understanding.

Paul could Not Understand Christ Jesus IS God. It was totally against Jewish teachings to see A MAN and trust to believe A MERE MAN could possibly Be God. Yikes.. Especially some nobody from Nazareth without riches and position... pfft you got to be kidding..
Was the consensus among the Jewish clergy.

And as well Paul's consensus As he Himself was a Pharisee.

But then Paul has a revelation from the Lord and then Paul pretty much separates himself from other men to steep himself in knowledge of the Lord, becoming prepared to serve the Lord in the manner according to what the Lord has chosen for him to do. Acts.

Does Paul struggle with being in a physically alive and spiritually dead and spiritually alive body? Absolutely as do most Converted men.

You repeated 1 John 3:9 from your chosen Bible but failed to render How will not continue to Sin, can not go on sinning
Is different than me saying
Sins no more.
Can not Sin.

Is your Understanding you think there IS a choice in the matter concerning a man born of God ?

If not then why do you think we are not saying the same thing?

If so, you think it hinges on the choice and will power of a man...

How so?

God Bless,
SBC

Click to expand...

JESUS=G.O.A.T said:

It can if someone chooses to stop it though....by suggesting it can't be stopped you're suggesting one doesn't have free will? Also I have straight up biblical and anecdotal evidence...my brother was saved living for God...he left. I have other examples too. But here are some of the scriptures I have that point out that you're wrong...that OSAS isn't true.


2 corithians 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?


Comment: One can depart the faith and even reach reprobate status.... reprobate means... failing to pass....unapproved....counterfeit (if you read in romans 1:16-28 you will see there's no return from this which disproves OSAS)



2 Corinthians 13:5King James Version (KJV)
5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?


1 Timothy 4:1King James Version (KJV)
4 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;


Here's a great example here...one that was once saved following Paul but he left.

2 Timothy 4:10King James Version (KJV)
10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.

Click to expand...

No I am not suggesting a man does not have freewill.

The point Is a man exercises his freewill To Submit his LIFE to the Lord.

And absolutely a man SHOULD know what THAT means.

It is ridiculous to say oh ya ya I exercise my freewill to give my Life To the Lord....
But, but, but NOT on His Terms!

Oh ya ya sure God can save my soul, quicken my Spirit, crucify my body But but but according To MY Way and My Terms!

Sorry But God has decided His Way, His Terms and like with Any committed agreement It is advantageous for the agreeing party To Know What he is Freely choosing to agree to.

You are implying MAN has the authority to dictate God Way, because man has Freewill.

That is in error.

Mans Freewill Is exercised when a man Chooses God Way.

If a man Wants to backout of His commitment To God...the man was never committed to begin with...nor a recipient of Gods saving Grace...AS IF the man had FOOLED God.

No, all that man has done is lied to himself.
He simply claimed he was committed when he knew he was still doubting.

That's a mans wishy washy MIND for ya and WHY God searches a mans Heartfelt thoughts for a mans confession and NOT a mans Mindful thoughts confession.

God Bless,
SBC

SBC said:

No I am not suggesting a man does not have freewill.

The point Is a man exercises his freewill To Submit his LIFE to the Lord.

And absolutely a man SHOULD know what THAT means.

It is ridiculous to say oh ya ya I exercise my freewill to give my Life To the Lord....
But, but, but NOT on His Terms!

Oh ya ya sure God can save my soul, quicken my Spirit, crucify my body But but but according To MY Way and My Terms!

Sorry But God has decided His Way, His Terms and like with Any committed agreement It is advantageous for the agreeing party To Know What he is Freely choosing to agree to.

You are implying MAN has the authority to dictate God Way, because man has Freewill.

That is in error.

Mans Freewill Is exercised when a man Chooses God Way.

If a man Wants to backout of His commitment To God...the man was never committed to begin with...nor a recipient of Gods saving Grace...AS IF the man had FOOLED God.

No, all that man has done is lied to himself.
He simply claimed he was committed when he knew he was still doubting.

That's a mans wishy washy MIND for ya and WHY God searches a mans Heartfelt thoughts for a mans confession and NOT a mans Mindful thoughts confession.

God Bless,
SBC

Click to expand...

1. I'm not implying man can dictate God's way...i'm implying that while trying to live God's way a man may mess up here or there...that's where grace is for. If you're trying hard to not sin and live for God and you miss up somewhere his grace covers you.

2. What's interesting is we almost....almost...hold the same position and I want to show you that.

A. We both agree that avoiding Sin is possible and a need.

B. The only difference...is that you believe it's not possible for a man to sin while being saved...and I do and becuase of this possibility...I believe that if a man doesn't repent...and address that sin they can backslide. I've seen it first hand this isn't just me going off the bible. The only difference is one of us believes just continuous sin is wrong...the other discrete.


We hold almost the same position but one of us just believes in sinless perfection being a necessity rather then something one may or may not reach.

SBC said:

First let me say I am responding from my phone and have not mastered typing on a 3" pretend keyboard lol nor know how to copy n paste and am sure spelling errors are plenty.

1)
A disciple is a follower.
Being a follower does not mean specifically according to a timeframe. A follower could be for a small amount of time or a long time.

Remember Jesus' chosen 12 -1 disciples were followers learning way more than they ever wrote about.

Some disciples become Apostles, some remain disciples. All who lay down their life for Jesus becomes a Friend of Jesus.

Every follower of Jesus has an Advocate in Jesus, Who will speak on their behalf and do on their behalf.

Remember testimony and preparation for you is not only on earth but also IN heaven and That is effected through Jesus.

However ONCE a man has laid down his life for Jesus it's a whole new ballgame.

John 13-14

Forgive my paraphrasing...
But basically a couple of the disciples are saying ya ya Jesus... but when are you gunna show us the Father... and Jesus is basically saying you are looking at Him.
They did Not understand.
Jesus knew they would not understand and Why.

Jesus told them flat out He was telling them ahead of time what would happen SO they would believe Him when they would see it happen.

They as Jesus knew Would Be receiving the Holy Spirit After Jesus bodily ascended to heaven.

They BY receiving the Holy Spirit would THEN be prepared to receive the Understanding.

What applied to THEM applies to every man who receives the Holy Spirit- they are prepared to receive the Understanding of Scriptures.

How ? By ASKING!

Who?

God.

Who? Jesus their Advocate who will then be the middle buffer between man and God?

No. By asking Jesus directly and then being given the Understanding He is God.
He is The Word of God. He is the Power of God. He acts on the power OF Himself.

He reveals the Understanding OF Himself, By His own Holy Spirit.

I have no more Advocate middle buffer between God and myself. He who Was my Advocate has given me His Spirit and His Understanding to Know He Is God.
I have been given direct access to God 24-7
To Ask or tell Him whatever I please.

The teaching of that in Scriptures IS for the benefit of all men.

I don't need to relearn or redo what I have already accomplished learning and doing.
Neither does the Lord need to redo or reaccomplish what He has already accomplished IN me.

I am already Prepared for Him to Redeem me on His chosen Day. I simply WAIT for others to be born, hear, learn, accomplish, become reconciled {or not} till Gods next phase of His plan is accomplished.

Yes, Paul was of old long time Faith in God..
While he was like most Jews then and still Now, without Understanding.

Paul could Not Understand Christ Jesus IS God. It was totally against Jewish teachings to see A MAN and trust to believe A MERE MAN could possibly Be God. Yikes.. Especially some nobody from Nazareth without riches and position... pfft you got to be kidding..
Was the consensus among the Jewish clergy.

And as well Paul's consensus As he Himself was a Pharisee.

But then Paul has a revelation from the Lord and then Paul pretty much separates himself from other men to steep himself in knowledge of the Lord, becoming prepared to serve the Lord in the manner according to what the Lord has chosen for him to do. Acts.

Does Paul struggle with being in a physically alive and spiritually dead and spiritually alive body? Absolutely as do most Converted men.

You repeated 1 John 3:9 from your chosen Bible but failed to render How will not continue to Sin, can not go on sinning
Is different than me saying
Sins no more.
Can not Sin.

Is your Understanding you think there IS a choice in the matter concerning a man born of God ?

If not then why do you think we are not saying the same thing?

If so, you think it hinges on the choice and will power of a man...

How so?

God Bless,
SBC

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1. for 1 john 3:9 i'm just reading it as it is. It says continuous sin...not discrete sin.


2. Look your whole argument about...going from follower to....some more perfect being doesn't even matter. The point is that the letter...was written to Christians who had an understanding. 1 john 3:9 and 1 john 2:1 were written to the same group of people at the same exact time. This is all within one letter for one group.

There is no level 1, 2, and 3 in this letter. Sure I agree levels exist...the bible mentions new born babes supping on the milk of the word but yeah that's not the case here. Every Christian can have an advocate with the father if they sin.


3. The biggest biggest flaw in your argument is the argument that the disciples didn't have the HOly Spirit so they lacked an understanding.


The reason why this argument isn't a good argument to claim that 1 john 2:1 applies to people such as the disciples who didn't have the HOly SPirit yet and lacked an understanding is becuase of this.

Every single letter that Paul wrote to was to Christians that have already experienced the acts 2:38 experience. They aren't the equivalent of those confused disciples that didn't have the HOly Spirit to teach them all things and bring all things to their remembrance. These people that received 1 john already had this understanding.

~Cassia~ said:

They had received the breath of new life already which was for their living in Him.

Understanding is for us the mirror that gets clearer every day.
The anointing on those for service comes later after understanding.

Luke 24:45-4
Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things. I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”

Their minds were opened so understanding of the scriptures was given to them. But to be effective witnesses they needed to wait to be clothed with power from on high.

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Gods Breath has Power. No contention there.
However it is BY One receiving Gods SEED,
That a man becomes Born Again.
And that did not Apply until After Jesus Bodily ascended.

God Bless,
SBC

SBC said:

Gods Breath has Power. No contention there.
However it is BY One receiving Gods SEED,
That a man becomes Born Again.
And that did not Apply until After Jesus Bodily ascended.

God Bless,
SBC

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Being born again and being empowered to witness are 2 different things. One is permanant and ongoing , the other is not.

Peter was empowered when He witnessed about Christ being the Son of God but he wasn't a few minutes later. Test all things.

JESUS=G.O.A.T said:

1. I'm not implying man can dictate God's way...i'm implying that while trying to live God's way a man may mess up here or there...that's where grace is for. If you're trying hard to not sin and live for God and you miss up somewhere his grace covers you.

2. What's interesting is we almost....almost...hold the same position and I want to show you that.

A. We both agree that avoiding Sin is possible and a need.

B. The only difference...is that you believe it's not possible for a man to sin while being saved...and I do and becuase of this possibility...I believe that if a man doesn't repent...and address that sin they can backslide. I've seen it first hand this isn't just me going off the bible. The only difference is one of us believes just continuous sin is wrong...the other discrete.


We hold almost the same position but one of us just believes in sinless perfection being a necessity rather then something one may or may not reach.

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You assume something I never claimed.

I never said Sinless perfection!

Nor does Scripture teach such a thing.

Only God is Sinless!

God Forgives a mans Sin.
That forgiveness doesn't make a man Sinless,
It makes his Sin forgiven, covered, and remembered No More ... by God....

However BY man is another story-
Men thrive on remembering their Sin.
That want to talk about their own sins. They want to dictate what sins others have.

Sorry but I know what I asked God to forgive me for And Trust He is faithful to His Own Word and has forgiven All of my Sin against Him and IS Faithful to Keep me By His Power From ever Again Sinning Agaist Him.

So do I keep asking the Lord over and over to Forgive me...As If His Forgivenees was a Failure?

No I don't.

Do I say to the Lord oh oh forgive me for not not taking the kids to the zoo when I said I would or oh oh forgive me for fighting with my spouse or oh oh forgive me for whatever trespass one man commits toward another ?

No I don't.

Even if men are calling those things SINS, and demanding an apology. Which on its face is ridiculous.

Men forgive one another for the transgression of trespasses of man against man.
Only God forgives the transgression of Sin of man against God.

If I trespass against a man, it is not Sin, nor do I ask any man to forgive me of Sin.

And if I resolve between me and another man God also has forgiven such trespass of me against the man, as Scriptures teach and I trust are True.

So instead of constantly asking God to give me what He already Has given me I choose to
Have my communication with God to express my thankfulness for All of His Grace and forgiveness and Blessings and then like extreme over the top am asking for His teaching, His Understanding and His Wisdom.

And not in the least do I believe the Lords Spirit dwells within a man WHO is committing Sin.

God Bless,
SBC

SBC said:

You assume something I never claimed.

I never said Sinless perfection!

Nor does Scripture teach such a thing.

Only God is Sinless!

God Forgives a mans Sin.
That forgiveness doesn't make a man Sinless,
It makes his Sin forgiven, covered, and remembered No More ... by God....

However BY man is another story-
Men thrive on remembering their Sin.
That want to talk about their own sins. They want to dictate what sins others have.

Sorry but I know what I asked God to forgive me for And Trust He is faithful to His Own Word and has forgiven All of my Sin against Him and IS Faithful to Keep me By His Power From ever Again Sinning Agaist Him.

So do I keep asking the Lord over and over to Forgive me...As If His Forgivenees was a Failure?

No I don't.

Do I say to the Lord oh oh forgive me for not not taking the kids to the zoo when I said I would or oh oh forgive me for fighting with my spouse or oh oh forgive me for whatever trespass one man commits toward another ?

No I don't.

Even if men are calling those things SINS, and demanding an apology. Which on its face is ridiculous.

Men forgive one another for the transgression of trespasses of man against man.
Only God forgives the transgression of Sin of man against God.

If I trespass against a man, it is not Sin, nor do I ask any man to forgive me of Sin.

And if I resolve between me and another man God also has forgiven such trespass of me against the man, as Scriptures teach and I trust are True.

So instead of constantly asking God to give me what He already Has given me I choose to
Have my communication with God to express my thankfulness for All of His Grace and forgiveness and Blessings and then like extreme over the top am asking for His teaching, His Understanding and His Wisdom.

And not in the least do I believe the Lords Spirit dwells within a man WHO is committing Sin.

God Bless,
SBC

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Show me one scripture where people seek forgiveness for future sins and leave it at that.

SBC said:

..
And not in the least do I believe the Lords Spirit dwells within a man WHO is committing Sin.

God Bless,
SBC

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You don't believe in the process of sanctifcation? and that the Spirit can be quenched? Repeatedly doing so results results in a conscience that is seared 1 Timothy 4:2

NothingIsImpossible said:

The only accurate view on OSAS is that its false. For example lets say Hitler was a christian. Then did what he did. Would he still go to heaven? No. Proof enough you can lose it. The only counter argument people try to make is "Well that person wasn't saved to begin with!". Which doesn't make much sense. So lets say someone really well known like Billy Graham decided one day to go on a shoot spree killing children. Would this mean he was never saved to begin with? Of course not. All it means is he now lost his salvation.

You can turn your back on God to the point in which there is no longer a "grey line". And at this point you lose your salvation. However.... if you come back to God, its still there to be had.

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.
Well the fact is, Billy Graham never did go on a shooting spree, why do you think that was, do you need a hint?

But Hitler did do what he did, there was no Charity (Love) in the Man.

Where and by who is that grey line taught on?

mkgal1 said:

The first question may have to be: "what truly does it mean to be 'saved'?".

I don't see anything like an instruction of merely reciting a "sinner's prayer" (well......other than using the thief on the cross).

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.
Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

I think that verse couldn't make it any clearer, as to what one must do in order to be Saved, anything after that is works of man.