yeshuaslavejeff
simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Okay. Pm if you like, if you really are seeking God's Kingdom. (not man's religions, supporting or promoting them)
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Okay. Pm if you like, if you really are seeking God's Kingdom. (not man's religions, supporting or promoting them)If anyone has conquered sin...We need to talk please...
1. All i'm asking for is one scripture to support your position... every time I have a discussion with a OSAS believer they resort to logic and analogies not the word of God. And that only helps me out in the debate....proves there's no bible to support your position. I've posted two scriptures...which you ignored.... can you post some?
2. Ok i'm going to forget about the loophole argument and just straight up ask the question i'm trying to give you.
Can someone theoretically under the OSAS ideoligy sin as much as they want.... after accepting God as their savior or whatever...and still make it to heaven? Could i sleep with someone each day....watch porn each day.... mmmm idk steal sometimes all while accepting God as my savior (assuming that's what you believe salvation is) and still make it? Still be saved?
Could I kill 3 people.... and not repent of that....but do that after accepting God as my savior some years ago or whenever I did so and still be saved?
Is there a limit to what I can do until i'm not saved anymore and if so doesn't that kill the OSAS theory even without the scriptures that contradict it?
3. The thread was 11 pages long by the time I got here....I would rather you post at least one or two scriptures as I did.... it would help. I'm not asking you to post 10 scriptures just one or two that support your position in your opinion.
You seem scared to biblically discuss this....I mean I don't mind a good logical debate....competed in debate for years....was fun.
But when it comes to the bible...needs to be book chapter and verse...so can you provide that or not? And if you didn't want to discuss bible...why address my comment? You initiated this.
In Defending the true meaning of Romans 7:
Peter says this about Paul's writings,
"As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." (2 Peter 3:16).
A. In Romans 7:1-6, Paul is telling Messianic Christians (i.e. those brethren who know Old Testament Law - Romans 7:1) that the Old Law is dead and that they should serve in newness of Spirit (i.e. the New Testament Scriptures that were still being formed) and not in oldness of the letter (i.e. the Torah, etc.). This makes sense because Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. This lines up with the temple veil being torn from top to bottom when Christ died (Which started the New Covenant officially). The Old Testament Laws on animal sacrifices was no longer in effect anymore and Jesus Christ was now our passover Lamb or perfect sacrifice. Hence, why Romans 7:2 says, "if the husband [i.e. Jesus] be dead, she [i.e. the body of believers] is loosed from the law [i.e. the Old Law] of her husband."
B. In Romans 7:7-13, Paul is recounting Israelite history and speaking as a Jew throughout time with the coming in of the Law of Moses and what that was like.
C. In Romans 7:14-24, Paul is recounting his experience as a Pharisee before he became a Christian. Paul (Saul) is describing his experience of what it is like to struggle in keeping the Old Covenant Law that did not include Jesus Christ.
It is true that the use of first-person present verbs in the passage (“I am” “I practice” “I want” “I hate” “I do”) sounds like Paul is talking about his present experience. But Paul sometimes uses “I” in a rhetorical sense to describe generic experience rather than his own present experience (1 Corinthians 10:30; 1 Corinthians 13:2-3, 1 Corinthians 13:11). In at least one other place, Paul uses a first-person present verb to describe his opponents’ experience (Galatians 2:18).
Source:
Paul is not Talking about Himself: Why I take the "pre-Christian" Reading of Romans 7:14-25
D. Romans 7:25 is a verse that transitions back to the present day reality as Paul being a Christian. He is thankful that he now has victory in Jesus Christ His Lord who can deliver him from his body of death (Which was a problem before). Otherwise why is Paul thanking Jesus?
Paul asks the question in verse 24.
Who shall deliver me from this body of death?
I like how the Good News Translation answers this question. It says,
"Thanks be to God, who does this through our Lord Jesus Christ! This, then, is my condition: on my own I can serve God's law only with my mind, while my human nature serves the law of sin." (Romans 7:25 GNT).
The NTE says,
"...So then, left to my own self I am enslaved to God’s law with my mind, but to sin’s law with my human flesh." (Romans 7:25 NTE).
But Romans 13:14 says,
"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof."
However, if you are still in doubt, there are 8 reasons in Scripture that show us that Paul is indeed talking as a Pharisee (recounting his past experience) and he is not talking in the present tense as a Christian in Romans 7:14-24.
#1. In Romans 7:6, Paul says we should serve in newness of the spirit and not the oldness of the letter (Which is the Old Law and not the New Testament Scriptures that were still being formed). We are told to SERVE. How do we serve? Do we just do our own thing? No. We follow God's commands in the New Testament. This talk of the Old Law is the context of verses 14-24.
#2. We are dead to the Law by the body of Jesus Christ (Romans 7:4). Would this be the Old Law or ALL law? 1 John 3:23 is a commandment that says we are to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. This is a New Covenant Law. So obviously we are not dead to this Law or Command. The Scriptures also say, "but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent." (Acts 17:30). Are we dead to this Law? Surely not. Jesus said "repent or perish." (Luke 13:3). Peter told Simon to repent (by way of prayer to God) of his wickedness of trying to pay for the gifts of the Holy Spirit so that he may be forgiven (Acts 8:22). Sin is merely transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4). All this lets us know that men of God can break God's laws and they can be separated from GOD because of it. So surely some kind of Law of God is still in effect and has dire consequences for any person's soul who commits them. For Jesus said that if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15). If Jesus was talking to unbelievers, this would not make any sense. They would first need to accept Christ. So the only logical conclusion is that Jesus is talking to believers in Matthew 6:15. You do not forgive (i.e. you sin or break this law of God) and you will not be forgiven or saved. 1 John 3:15 says if you hate your brother you are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. Again, you hate your brother (which can be a one time act) and you do not have eternal life. It's that simple. Also, Paul condemns circumcision several times. Galatians 5:2 is the biggest verse that condemns circumcision salvationism. Circumcision is an Old Covenant Law and it is not a New Covenant Law. Paul uses the word "law" when he speaks against circumcision. So we have to conclude that Paul is saying we are dead to the Old Covenant Law and not all Law. So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.
#3. Paul says, "For without the law sin was dead." (Romans 7:8). He also says, "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." (Romans 7:9). This type of saying is nonsensical from a present tense reading as an adult Christian. The only way it sort of works is if Paul is referring to himself as a baby who had no knowledge of God's laws yet. But there are two problem with even that interpretation. One, this view does not seem as consistent with the phrase, "For without the law sin was dead" because even though Paul as a baby did not have any knowledge of the Law yet, the rest of the adult world would have the Law and sin would still be alive to them. Second, Paul says, "And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me." (Romans 7:10-11). Okay, so if Paul grew up and became aware of the Law one day, how could the commandment be ordained to life at this point in his life? The commandment was ordained for life back in the time of the Law of Moses. Also, Paul found that "the commandment" was death unto him and that it slew him. There are no death penalties attached to the commands given to us under the New Testament. Death penalties are only associated with the Laws given to us in the Old Covenant. This is how the Law slew him. For breaking the Old Law could be a loss of his own physical life. So this is talking about the Old Law (and not all Law). So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.
#4. Paul says, "But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). Okay. Let's break this down. Paul says, "But sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR SIN, works death in me." (Romans 7:13). Now, how can sin make it appear like it may not be sin? Well, if Jesus was raised and Saul (Paul) was still a Pharisee striving to obey the Old Law when the New Covenant Law was still in effect, the sin that Saul (Paul) was struggling with as a pharisee during that time would not really technically be sin in every case. For if Paul disobeyed certain Old Covenant laws while the New Covenant and it's laws were in effect, then Saul (Paul) is not really breaking any real commandments from God in every case. Hence, why Paul said, "...sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR (as) SIN." (Romans 7:13). The beginning of verse 13 is a foreshadow of what is to come in verses 14-24. Paul is stepping out for a brief moment as speaking as an Israelite living throughout history to speak of his condition as a Pharisee when he says, "...sin, that it might appear sin." In the second half of verse 13, Paul says, that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). This is saying that when God provided the written Law of Moses to his people, there would be a double accountability to keeping God's laws because they are written for all to see now. So an Old Testament saint would feel exceedingly sinful or guilty for breaking God's law back in the Old Testament times because he had in his possession a written down visual law clearly telling him what is right and wrong. So again, Paul is referring to the Old Law here and not all law. This talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.
#5. Paul says in Romans 7:14 that he is carnal and is sold under sin; And yet in Romans 8:2, Pauls says he is free from sin. So unless Paul is contradicting himself, he is talking from two different perspectives.
#6. In Romans 7:25, Paul asks the question: "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Asking this kind of question as a Christian does not seem consistent with Paul's following statement if he is already delivered thru Jesus Christ as a Christian. If a believer is delivered by Jesus, and is thankful of that fact, there would be no cry to ask any question that says, "Who shall deliver me from this body of death?"
#7. Here is the final nail in the coffin for this argument. Romans 8:3-4 says,
3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:3-4).
So which Law did God send His Son for so as to condemn sin in the flesh?
It was the Old Covenant Law.
For when Jesus died on the cross, the temple veil was ripped from top to bottom letting us know that the Old Testament laws were no longer valid because the Old Laws on the animal sacrifices and the priesthood were no longer acceptable.
Jesus Christ was now our Passover Lamb.
Jesus Christ was soon be our Heavenly High Priest (after He ascended to His father after His resurrection 3 days later) so He can be our mediator between God the Father and man.
Romans 8:4 says, "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
This is saying that the righteous part or aspect of the Old Law can be fulfilled in us.
Paul says elsewhere,
8 "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."
(Romans 13:8-10).
So loving your neighbor is the righteousness of the Old Law!
We fulfill this law by walking after the Spirit and not after the flesh (i.e. sin).
So we see a consistent theme here. The word "law" used in general (with no actual description attached to it) is in reference to the Old Law in Romans 7 and Romans 8. This helps us to understand that Paul is telling us his past experience or life as a Pharisee in struggling to keep the Old Law unsuccessfully because he did not have Jesus Christ yet (in verses 14-24).
#8. In addition, in Romans 8:2, we see the mention of how there are TWO laws. We also learn from this verse that keeping one of these Laws helps us to be set FREE from the other one.
In Romans 8:2, we see:
Law #1. - Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.
This is a New Covenant Law that we are still under. What is this Law?
It is fulfilling the righteousness of the Law (i.e. to love your neighbor - Romans 13:8-10) by walking after the Spirit (See Romans 8:3-4).
Law #2. Sin and Death.
This is in reference to the Old Covenant Law as a whole (i.e. the 613 Old Testament Commands within the Torah). It is called the Law of Sin and Death because you could physically be put to death by not obeying this Law.
What is the relationship of these two laws in Romans 8:2?
Keeping the New Law helps us to be free of the Old Law.
For there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who WALK not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:1).
Suffice it to remind everyone, test everything, as more error is posted and repeated by far, than truth.Folks on both sides of this subject can potentially get something from it.
Suffice it to remind everyone, test everything, as more error is posted and repeated by far, than truth.
Clarify this please. (I realize this isn't fully what you mean, and others will think they cannot overcome the world nor overcome sin unless they also know what God's Word Says About This).
If I see it again i will.... he has been not seen by me for many months due to too much different from the Bible as Anabaptists believe and our/their/my faith in jesus and the Bible.. (there was no progress long ago after many posts, so I dropped it - there' seemed to be no use nor good purpose further debating nor arguing ) .Was there something you found in error? We all pretty much know that already, so it seems as though you may be suggesting there is a problem with his post. If there is, and since I recommended the post, can you please clarify?
Maybe.... simply (as I think or thought you already know)I was agreeing to what I quoted, and very generally. Maybe you can get them to clarify.
Wonder why God tells us "He will be faithful when we are faithless "? Or "where sin abounds Grace abounds all the more" ? Everyone stumbles but NO believer can fall my friend. Again, Jesus makes this crystal clear in the Gospel of John 6:35-40. He will NEVER drive us/you away. There are those sleeping under a bridge who are permanently saved. Also see the Gospel of Like 6:20. Sure seems clear to most Bible scholars...I think that is only possible by those who have "trampled underfoot the Son of God and has considered the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing and has insulted the Spirit of grace"
If I see it again i will.... he has been not seen by me for many months due to too much different from the Bible as Anabaptists believe and our/their/my faith in jesus and the Bible.. (there was no progress long ago after many posts, so I dropped it - there' seemed to be no use nor good purpose further debating nor arguing ) .
So don't take my word for this, no, not at all. Simple remember, a reminder encouraged through all Scripture, TEST everything.... and a reminder from (in person, off line) observers "no one is what they seem" .... so again the continually need to test everything by God's Word before accepting anything.
I believe it's because in selfproclaimed pearls of wisdom they blaspheme the Holy Spirit. They trade gaining Christ to return to refuse. Philippians 3:8Wonder why God tells us "He will be faithful when we are faithless "? Or "where sin abounds Grace abounds all the more" ? Everyone stumbles but NO believer can fall my friend. Again, Jesus makes this crystal clear in the Gospel of John 6:35-40. He will NEVER drive us/you away. There are those sleeping under a bridge who are permanently saved. Also see the Gospel of Like 6:20. Sure seems clear to most Bible scholars...
1 John 3:9 is only refering to continuous sin 1 John 3:9 9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. I also know this because of 1 John 2:1 1 John 2:1 1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
It may seem misleading to some, but if one TRULY believes? They are born again and the Holy Spirit convicts them to avoid sin. The difference between those of us who are saved and those who are not is clear, we HATE when we sin but the lost? They simply don't care. The fact that we hate our "sin nature" confirms our salvation. I'll get very personal and get into the mud, if you will, my fight with my sin nature is an on going battle and when I fail it is awful but I run and jump into Jesus' lap, ask forgiveness and snuggle up. He never moves or changes in anyway and He's our high Priest who's been exactly where we are, but without sin. We fight the battles but Jesus won the war at the Cross! I'm with the Apostle Paul on this one, and the Word of God.Clarify this please. (I realize this isn't fully what you mean, and others will think they cannot overcome the world nor overcome sin unless they also know what God's Word Says About This).
They don't exactly 'fall', they walk away if they want to , free will and all as God says and doesn't violate.Everyone stumbles but NO believer can fall my friend.
Yes, there may be. Yahweh is close to the down and out, the oppressed, the forsaken, as His Word Says.There are those sleeping under a bridge who are permanently saved.
Possibly it can be seen or shown that many who claim to be saved do not hate sin, but revel in it, perhaps like they did in Corinth, or worse.The difference between those of us who are saved and those who are not is clear, we HATE when we sin but the lost? They simply don't care. The fact that we hate our "sin nature" confirms our salvation.
And is not Continuing To Sin somehow dirrerent than Sins No More?
And when you learned How "that ye Sin not",
Did ye have to learn that Again?
I didn't.
However I am well aware people are born everyday and they have not yet learned "that ye Sin not".
So it is advantageous for language to remain IN Scriptures AND to know When a Scriptures Applies to You or Not.
A man who has Already BECOME Forgiven, bodily dead, Justified, Sanctified, Saved, Born Again OF God - IS What?
He IS A son OF God.
Did the man come forth Out Of God, like Jesus? No.
The man BECAME Born OF God BY the SEED
OF God, who is Christ.
And? Can a son of God Sin? No.
So does a son of God need to taught to not sin?
Does a son of God need a go between / an Advocate To Speak To God on behalf of a man Who IS a son of God? No.
However a man Who Is NOT a son of God DOES need a go between / Advocate.
I am a son of God which gives me authority To Directly have spiritual communications with God.
I am a son of God and Sin No More.
God Bless,
SBC
I've already stated this was a category fail for you. Sin isn't the deciding factor in our salvation. All your speculation about number and severity of sins is actually off-topic as it pertains to salvation. You might as well be asking me how many M&M's one needs to eat to become and remain saved.
Scared? Of you and your doctrine? It's actually more pity than anything else. If you work salvation people actually believe what you claim, you will end of forever separated from God. Then you'll be standing before Him claiming that you did this work and that work in His name, and He'll tell you that He never knew you. I can only hope that such adherents are actually saved by faith, but their intellect just hasn't caught up yet.
I already mentioned the scripture has been posted. If you can't be bothered to read the thread, then I can't be bothered to reiterate its content for you. I'm not a hand-holder.
And as to why I addressed your comment, it's a pubic forum. I'll address anything I wish for any reason I wish. That's why.
FWIW, I highly recommend this post of Jason's,.. well, to the point I'm posting it again.It's long but just break it up and read it a little at a time if need be. Take is slow if you are a little slow like me, and make sure you understand it all. It is written/explained as such, that you will likely be able to.
You owe it to yourself, if you are interested in the truth and clarity...if not, best stay away from it, you won't like it at all. For me, it made more clear, and showed me things I felt were true automatically, but since feelings don't cut is when trying to convince others, it was not only nice to see in writing, and have things explained, but left me with a tool.
Folks on both sides of this subject can potentially get something from it.
Thanks, Jason
I've already stated this was a category fail for you. Sin isn't the deciding factor in our salvation. All your speculation about number and severity of sins is actually off-topic as it pertains to salvation. You might as well be asking me how many M&M's one needs to eat to become and remain saved.
Scared? Of you and your doctrine? It's actually more pity than anything else. If you work salvation people actually believe what you claim, you will end of forever separated from God. Then you'll be standing before Him claiming that you did this work and that work in His name, and He'll tell you that He never knew you. I can only hope that such adherents are actually saved by faith, but their intellect just hasn't caught up yet.
I already mentioned the scripture has been posted. If you can't be bothered to read the thread, then I can't be bothered to reiterate its content for you. I'm not a hand-holder.
And as to why I addressed your comment, it's a pubic forum. I'll address anything I wish for any reason I wish. That's why.
Seems more like he was talking about Sceva's sons to me. Luke did not say that they were believers.I think Matthew 7 has already been quoted in this thread. These people had the Holy Spirit. They were casting out demons, they had gifts of the Spirit as they were prophesying in Jesus name, and signs and wonders were following them. But because of their continuing in sin, Jesus said, I never knew you, you workers of lawlessness.
They could have started out just fine, but as their ministries grew, perhaps they got greedy, manipulating for money like some of the TV evangelists. Paul says that if a man claims to be a brother, but commits extortion, not even to have a meal with that person. They have brought shame on the name of Jesus, and trampled on His blood and the Spirit of Grace.
Therefore, if this person had the Holy Spirit he was born again. He was saved. But at the end he wasn't.
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