Are there degrees of salvation and punishment?

[InspectorVol]

After reading a thread on whether some sins are worse than others, I think this would be good discussion and it seems that both would/could be connected to each other. What do you think?

 

[athames]

Sin is Sin. There aren't greater sins, only sin. Degrees are put on sin in human minds, such as a murderer or child molester. In some respects, I think that a child molester may have some retribution to pay before the end, because Jesus speaks so much of children, that if you offend one of these little ones, it would be better for a millstone be tied around your neck and you thrown into the deep. But, to God, sin is sin. I don't really know, as I don't see it described above that of the children in the bible. Anyone else?

On Salvation and varying degrees, I don't see it in the bible. You are saved or you are not. You are lost or you are found. You are dead in sin or alive with Christ. There isn't a variance described.

 

[jon1101]

I have heard the 'levels of hell' doctrine taught quite a bit, but can think of no scripture that supports it. As far as different levels of salvation: There will be rewards and whatnot in heaven based on what you do on earth. This could be interpretted as a higher level of salvation, but in then end heaven will be good no matter which rewards you receive.

-jon

 

[athames]

Jon, I agree 100%. I was looking more to earthly salvation and that varying degree. I don't think that a sinner will get a worse hell because he sinned more either. Sin is sin, hell is hell. Now the rewards program for the afterlife is excellent, but I am just happy to be getting to heaven. Eternal life with the one who died for me is plenty enough of a reward. I just hate the thought of what I will face in judgement, with the wrongs I have done as a christian.

 

[ZiSunka]

No. Whether you tell a lie or kill a child, you are just as lost, because no one who has committed sin can be in the presence of God unless that person has been made clean by God. Salvation is a relationship, you are either in relationship with God or you aren't. You either accept that all your sins are bad, or you try to minimize them by saying that your sins aren't as bad as other people's. But if you minimize them, you are failing to understand that it is only by repenting of your sinfulness that you can be saved.

It's like this. Suppose that there was a race to swin from Califonia to Hawaii. Some people would jump in the ocean and drown within minutes. These might be compared to the people who commit "bad" sins. Other people might swim for hours before fatigue and cold cause them to fail and drown. Others might swim for a couple days, but even at around ten miles an hour (a strong distance swimmer's pace), that would only get them a couple hundred miles off shore. No one would get close to Hawaii.

But suppose a boat came along to each swimmer, and when you came to the realization that no matter how good you are, you couldn't make it to Hawaii, you could get on the boat, and it would take you the rest of the way? Why, it would be the only way to get there, wouldn't it? You can't get there on your own power, no matter how good or strong you are.

Well, this life is like the plunge into the ocean at California, and heaven is like Hawaii. No matter how little your sins might seem, you can't get there from here under your own power. It is impossible. Unless you recognize that you can't do it, look to the boat and get on, you will drown in your sins. Christ is that boat. You have to get on the boat, or you will not make it to heaven. The saving event is getting on the boat. The size of your sins or the strength of your muscles is immaterial. You have to get on the boat.

 

[FOMWatts<><]

There are two types of people in the world. Lost people and saved people. God sees us as we are, nothing more nothing less. When we do accept the free gift of salvation He does not see us as filthy creatures even when we sin, but He has washed all that away through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. The wages of sin is DEATH BUT the GIFT of God is ETERNAL LIFE. He is so awesome, and I can't wait to sit doen and ask him about all of these nitpicky things we discuss in here, but then again I seriously doubt I will care at that point lol!!!

FOMWatts <><

 

[ZiSunka]

Imagine if God were really that kind of accountant, keeping track not only of the sin, but weighing eac sin against every other sin! The image makes me want to laugh! Can't you see him dressed like a pharmacist, counting out the various sins and the dosages of grace necessary to counteract them like little pills!

Thank God there is only one dosage of grace, and that it takes out all our sins!

 

[RichMallen]

Nice analogy Lambslove. =)

 

[ZiSunka]

Thanks!

 

[InspectorVol]

If you have mortal sins and venial? sins as the Catholic faith believes wouldn't you also have to have degrees of salvation? Maybe one of our Catholic friends can tell us what there belief is reguarding this.

I have read verses like the following that make you think about this. I don't know either way but some of these verses are very interesting.
1Tim.5
[8] But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
2Pet.2
[20] For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[ZiSunka]

I don't see any basis in scripture for mortal vs venial sin. I am not a catholic, and I don't know what they base it on, other than a reference in the Bible to "sins that don't lead to death," which in most evangelical circles is understood to be sin that leads to physcial death (like promiscuity can lead to AIDS which can lead to death), not spiritual death. All sin leads to spiritual death, and death is death. There are not degrees of death.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by athames
Sin is Sin. There aren't greater sins, only sin. Degrees are put on sin in human minds, such as a murderer or child molester. In some respects, I think that a child molester may have some retribution to pay before the end, because Jesus speaks so much of children, that if you offend one of these little ones, it would be better for a millstone be tied around your neck and you thrown into the deep. But, to God, sin is sin. I don't really know, as I don't see it described above that of the children in the bible. Anyone else?

On Salvation and varying degrees, I don't see it in the bible. You are saved or you are not. You are lost or you are found. You are dead in sin or alive with Christ. There isn't a variance described.

Well put.

God bless.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by athames
Jon, I agree 100%. I was looking more to earthly salvation and that varying degree. I don't think that a sinner will get a worse hell because he sinned more either. Sin is sin, hell is hell. Now the rewards program for the afterlife is excellent, but I am just happy to be getting to heaven. Eternal life with the one who died for me is plenty enough of a reward. I just hate the thought of what I will face in judgement, with the wrongs I have done as a christian.

Oooohhhh. Just when I thought we were on the same page due to your previous post. "Rewards program?" What!!? If you are truly a child of God than Christ already paid for your sins. That's what being saved means. His Love covers the multitude of sins. That means that if you are truly saved, it was once and for all times, not until the next time you sin.

God bless.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by lambslove
The saving event is getting on the boat.

Wrong. The saving event is that Christ put you in that boat. Otherwise, you are saying that you did something to acquire your salvation, or to "get on the boat." You were either saved by grace or by "getting on the boat."

lambslove, here's where I really get confused. First you say:

Originally posted by lambslove
Thank God there is only one dosage of grace, and that it takes out all our sins!

Then, in your very next post, you say:

Originally posted by lambslove
All sin leads to spiritual death, and death is death.

Either Jesus paid for you sins with "one dosage of grace," or, "all sin leads to spiritual death."

It can't be both.

God bless.

 

[ZiSunka]

It's the old bugaboo, freewill verses Calvinism.

I'm not playing.

All sin is cancelled by accepting the grace offered to us by God through Christ. Christ took the death that we deserved, paid the price for us, once and for all. One dose of grace IS all that's needed. Those who refuse to take the grace die in their sin. There is no conflict in what I said. You're just itching for a fight with me, that's all.

Again, I'm not playing.

 

[athames]

Originally posted by Reformationist


Oooohhhh. Just when I thought we were on the same page due to your previous post. "Rewards program?" What!!? If you are truly a child of God than Christ already paid for your sins. That's what being saved means. His Love covers the multitude of sins. That means that if you are truly saved, it was once and for all times, not until the next time you sin.

God bless.

Read what I wrote. The rewards program, as far as building up your treasure in heaven vs. here on earth is what I was referring to. Crowns, mansions, rewards in heaven. Not varying degrees of heaven mind you... Rewards in heaven isn't biblical principle? Why lay up treasures here when they can be corrupted, rather lay up your treasures in heaven where they are unable to be corrupted.

Sin continually, and if you turn on God, can remove you from the father. But that is a belief, that won't be changed in my view. I won't get into that debate here. Have been on the eternal security debate before and it just doesn't matter. Prodical son speaks to me in volumes and has a personal place in my heart through experience. I read it and applied it to my life. I can't speak for you or your life nor judge it. That doesn't make someone a Christian or not, so it's just not worth debate. I just say don't take the chance.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by lambslove
There is no conflict in what I said. You're just itching for a fight with me, that's all.

Again, I'm not playing.

Okay. I'm not looking for a fight lambslove. If you feel you can't discuss this without fighting I will pray for you.

God bless.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by athames
Crowns, mansions, rewards in heaven.

Uh huh. I see. Not sure I subscribe to the position that my reward in heaven will be a crown or a mansion. I know many Morman's believe that. My reward is to be rescued from this broken vessel and glorified to live eternally with my Father. Not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying I don't know what you're getting at.

God bless.

 

[2002 Christian]

There are no degrees in regard to being saved or lost. You are either will "rise to live" or "rise to be condemned" (John 5:29).

But...

Rom 2
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Heb 11
35 Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection.

Matthew16
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Rev 20
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

 

[athames]

Originally posted by Reformationist


Uh huh. I see. Not sure I subscribe to the position that my reward in heaven will be a crown or a mansion. I know many Morman's believe that. My reward is to be rescued from this broken vessel and glorified to live eternally with my Father. Not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying I don't know what you're getting at.

God bless.

I was getting at me. I think what I referred to in the post was about me. <<Now the rewards program for the afterlife is excellent, but I am just happy to be getting to heaven. >>

Sorry, I do not always talk to other members of the thread. I wasn't getting at any point really, other than I was happy to be heaven bound. That I don't agree with degrees of salvation or degrees of hell. One Lake of Fire, one judgement, we are all under sin.