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and in a previous post I admitted to not misunderstanding the phrase unrepentant. I took it to mean sin you have not yet confessed. But I see now that you mean it as sin one is refusing to repent and continues to live in. If this person were to tell me once saved always saved. I would tell them to read the bible and see what it means to be saved and a follower of Christ and seriously ask themselves if the Holy Spirit dwells in them.
Here is my problem with that and it is not biblical I will admit that. But If lying is a sin and we do not repent for it we are all going to hell. We are all liars. We all tell little lies from time to time. Whether you mean to or not. That does not mean we should knowingly lie or justify it because we are OSAS. But we all slip up and the day gets busy and we forget all about it. So alot of us probably 99.9% are going to hell for not repenting of a lie.
So you are saying there is sin you can not repent of and not recieve forgiveness for?
I should of clarified a little all believers WERE evil before Christ. It is Christ who makes us Holy.
Does the bible rank one sin over a other? Is beating your wife worse then homosexuality? Or is lying worse then adultery? I see no scoreboard for sin.
I do not think if I live Holy I will be saved. I have never said such a thing. There is nothing I can do to save myself. There is only one way to the Father and that is through Christ Jesus. Jesus saved me.
Hebrews 10:10-14:
By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, waiting from that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET. For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.
notice Paul says Jesus "offered one sacrifice for sins for all time." All time not just past or present but all time. Because if Jesus's sacrifice did not cover sin for all time then he would have to be crucified over and over. What hope is there in that?
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
As far as dying in sin. If I follow Christ and accept him fully yet forgot to repent of a sin I am still saved. I will not be banished for forgetting to repent about a lie I told a year ago.
Hebrews 10:26
"For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,"
key word deliberately. So a person who claims once saved always saved and knowingly lives in sin is not saved and was never saved. They clearly do not have the Holy Spirit residing in them. but if our sins were not deliberate then there still remains a sacrifice.
You really did not answer any of my questions or address anything I said.Well, if I am understanding you correctly, I do not see how justifying a little bit of sin vs. (versus) a lot of sin is any different from each other. Both make room for a person to think they can do evil and yet also serve God. For Adam just committed one sin and it caused a separation between God and all of mankind.
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You really did not answer any of my questions or address anything I said.
Adam commited one sin that effected all man kind. Jesus sacrificed himself for the sin of all man kind.
I am not sure the type of Christians you know. But I know no Christian who thinks they can run around and do evil things and still serve God.
OSAS if you are a believer and follower of Christ. To follow Christ is to live to carry out the Fathers will.
OSAS if you continually live in sin and never repent. No such thing. Because you do not know Christ nor love him.
I did not reply to all of what you wrote because I am limited on time in replying. For I am busy today. Also, you wrote a lot. So it will take time to give you a proper reply with Scripture.
Anyways, before you said we are evil and it is Christ who makes us holy and that future sin is forgiven for a believer. I have a problem with these claims. For one, there are people out there who think you can be filthy as a barn yard animal spiritually and yet be saved.
They will also say the same thing you are saying here. Future sin is forgiven.
Second, the other big problem is that your belief does not match up with the Bible or a standard of morality.
God is good and He would never allow one of His people to think they could commit even one really bad sin with the thinking they are saved.
Well, nowhere did I say one cannot repent of their sins (i.e. to confess and forsake sin) and be forgiven. I was saying if one died in the sin of murder, or the sin of lying, or the sin of adultery, etc. without repenting of it (before they die), they will not be forgiven or saved (Revelation 21:8) (Galatians 5:19-21) (Luke 13:3) (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9) (1 John 1:7) (1 John 2:3-6) (Proverbs 28:13) (Matthew 12:41 cf. Jonah 3:6-10). Ananias and Sapphira died immediately for their lying to the Holy Spirit, and a great fear fell upon the church and all who heard it. Now, if they were in God's Kingdom or paradise, it wouldn't make sense if others experienced the emotion of fear. They would feel sorrow because they miss them but not fear. For Paul says to live is Christ and to die is gain.
Now, I do not believe the Scriptures teach all sin is the same. Jesus said there is a "greater sin." There are sins that lead to death (the second death or the Lake of fire) and sins (minor faults and not serious sins, like not being baptized - 1 Peter 3:21) that do not lead to death (1 John 5:16-18). There are also unforgivable type sins. Those who worship the beast and take his mark do not even have their names written in the book of life since the foundation of the world. Those who commit the sin of speaking blasphemy (bad words) against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven in this life or the one to come (the Millennium). If one commits suicide and is not brought back to life by doctors or a miracle of God (whereby they will have a chance to repent of it), they are not forgiven. If a believer had the Holy Spirit and the gifts thereof and they decided to reject Jesus, they are not saved. Please take note that Peter did not have the Spirit when he rejected His Lord. But do I believe it is possible for a believer to not reject Jesus and yet backslide into a life of sin and become unsaved by their sin? Yes. But I also believe they can return back to God in this case and be forgiven of their life style of sin. This is illustrated to us in the parable of the prodigal son and James 5:19-20.
OSAS Type #1 says you can sin as much as you like and still be saved. All one needs is a belief on Jesus as their Savior.
OSAS Type #2 is a little more deceptive and requires a little more investigative work to get them to spill the beans to eventually admit their own belief. They are basically saying you have to generally live a holy life to be a believer but dying in one or two unrepentant sins (like lying or lusting after a woman) does not mean one is not saved. Basically you can get away with a little bit of sin versus a lot of sin.
I agree with most all you say, with one possible exception. Say someone loved God with all their heart, did real well by him for most of their life, they do one of the damnable sins, and some crazy accident for instance fairly immediately takes their life before they get right again. I think in a case like that, God might make an exception, as well as for other variables that are too numerous to try to name. He knows who we are inside, and there will be a judgment, maybe much like judgment here and now with our legal system where there are extenuating circumstances.
Sounds like a sermon or 2 that I heard when I was growing up. I will render it as close as I can remember it.But at least you clarified what you mean by secret sins. So "secret sins" are sins you are not aware of.... If so, in committing such sins did you lose your salvation? If there is some time frame allowance between sin and repentance as you seem to allude to, then what happens if you die prior to repentance - die guilty of some unrepented sins?
I have known many who fit that description and preach it from their pulpits. It comes from taking "Saved by faith and not works" to an illogical extreme.Are there Christians today who minimize the consequences of sin and ignore morality on some level?
You know, are there believers today who treat serious sins (like murder, hate, adultery, theft, etc.) as if it was like we spilled a glass of milk before God?
I would have to answer both of these questions with a "yes."
Why? Well,, when I hear certain believers speak about sin: It makes it sound like God is saying this to them when they sin:
GOD:
"Aw, that's okay, my child. You just spilled a little milk. I can clean that up. It is not that big of a deal."
To me, that is what it sounds like whenever hear certain Christians say that a believer can abide in unrepentant sin like (lusting after a woman or lying) and still be saved (as long as they have a belief on Jesus).
They say a believer will be chastised. But is that really a form of punishment? Do not even unbelievers go thru the same challenges as unbelievers?
Well, if I am understanding you correctly, I do not see how justifying a little bit of sin vs. (versus) a lot of sin is any different from each other. Both make room for a person to think they can do evil and yet also serve God. For Adam just committed one sin and it caused a separation between God and all of mankind.
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Yes, I gathered that was a misunderstanding.
Kenny'sID said:Just the fact there were different punishments for different sins in the days of Moses tells me they are not the same.
Kenny'sID said:There does seem to be a couple of main classifications to the OSAS, and that covers them pretty well.
Kenny'sID said:I agree with most all you say, with one possible exception. Say someone loved God with all their heart, did real well by him for most of their life, they do one of the damnable sins, and some crazy accident for instance fairly immediately takes their life before they get right again. I think in a case like that, God might make an exception, as well as for other variables that are too numerous to try to name. He knows who we are inside, and there will be a judgment, maybe much like judgment here and now with our legal system where there are extenuating circumstances.
Wait a minute, you previously said, and I quote, "Hidden of secret faults are ONLY minor transgressions" and yet you seemed to think that those won't cause you to lose your salvation.
So which is it Jason0047? Do you think a little bit of sin causes you to lose your salvation or not?
I beleive this verse addresses this and answers your question
Romans 9:15-16
For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
I have known many who fit that description and preach it from their pulpits. It comes from taking "Saved by faith and not works" to an illogical extreme.
So any avoidance of sin becomes "works," repentance becomes "works," and have actually heard some say that faith is "works." (based on Jn 6.29) And if we have "works," then we are cursed and our salvation is null and void. (Misunderstanding of Galatians)
Yeah, but see, God cannot honor us breaking or stretching His own commands within a Covenant He intends for us to follow. For they are called Commands for a reason. For if what you say was true, then we could not trust that God was being fair and true to His Word, morality, and fair justice in every given situation.
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This reminds me of something in the life of Confucius.
Confucius wandered around China with his disciples looking for people to listen to him, because he found most people in power ignored his wisdom. One time he went to a king seeking advice, and the king asked him how he could go about finding honest officials to work for him. Confucius replied "Be honest yourself".
So that's the answer. Instead of criticizing other Christians for supposedly minimizing their own sins, focus on what you yourself really have the power to change- yourself. Nobody has ever been threatened, shamed, or guilted into doing the right thing. Laws only restrain evil, they do not create goodness.
So are you saying God can not show mercy on who he chooses?
Or show compassion on who he chooses to show compassion?
This is in the situation the other person posted about someone dying before having time to repent.
I would only like a answer with in that context.
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I don't believe in "once saved, always saved". But I don't want to really debate that as it is a neverending source of contention between various kinds of Christians, particularly the Reformed vs. Arminians and Lutherans. However, that doesn't mean I think moralism or legalism actually is capable of getting people to do genuine good works. It produces a kind of pharisaical approach to living that is worse than unbelief, and much worse than merely being a sinner. While the sinner can often be made to realize a problem exists, the Pharisee has a much harder heart and is often immune to criticism because they have God on their side.
I don't know any Christians that think murder, theft, or lying are good things.
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