Discussion Are there any prophets/prophetesses in the body of Christ currently?

[ARBITER01]

I have to get ready for work Hidden, I'll post later afterwards.

Sorry if I seemed a little upset some, but we only have to be born again Christians with The Holy Spirit inside for GOD to reveal all truth to us, so the "you're not a prophet" thing can rub people the wrong way. Hope I didn't cause offense.

 

[ARBITER01]

But you are again superimposing that principle unto expectations specifically regarding a prophet, as if all true prophets should move in every gift Jesus moved in, when all that reference simply means is that we are all called to imitate Him in the closeness of our walk with God. Again, this undermines the teaching that we are His body and that each should have his own gift, not that some must have all the gifts.


Yes, but to apply this verse the way you are doing would violate all sorts of logic. If it is an absolute that anyone who truly believes in Him must do greater works than He did, then none of the apostles truly believed in Him. If it is an absolute that anyone who truly believes in Him must do greater works than He did then the entire New Testament church did not truly believe in fact, and no one in the current church does either, aside from maybe those like Wigglesworth and others who have raised the dead multiple times. There are other problems of logic as well.

I'm just going to state some thoughts,...

You question the logic in this, but really it's not about logic, it's about each person's measure of faith and experience given them.

Do I believe that a Christian is suppose to do those works that Jesus did? Absolutely,... and even greater ones than He did since He sits at the right of The Father, but does everyone reach that standard that Jesus set? No,.... but it is His standard nonetheless that each of us believing in Him are to reach for. Wigglesworth, that you mentioned, was able to reach this standard, as well as Maria Woodsworth Etter here in America did. It's not something impossible, but it's not something easy either.

- Everyone's measure of faith given them is different.

Have I operated in these power gifts such as gifts of healings, gift of faith and working of miracles? Yes, each one for just moments here and there since being filled with The Spirit, but only in small amounts, only enough to know what they were and how GOD uses them with us, and what to expect.

Have I experienced the anointing upon my head and The Holy Spirit resting upon me in power? Yes, but only for a brief time early on after I was filled with The Spirit, just enough to know from GOD there was more than what I had already received, and that I should not get comfortable with the gifts and think that with them I was empowered for service. It was the anointing that was the next step for me, and GOD made sure I understood that, and pushed me to go through the trials for it.

- Will everyone experience this like I have? No,... everyone's experiences are different.

There are various levels of experience here on this board, and I believe within this particular forum, a great degree of knowledge and understanding over and above the other forum sections. This thread is a discussion, not a court case. I don't have to build an amount of evidence in front of a jury, we are suppose to present what truth we know on subjects and discuss it here amongst ourselves, and let The Holy Spirit witness things to our spirits inside when we are speaking and teaching correctly.

Iron does sharpen iron, but this is not an official debate,... it's a discussion.

 

[jiminpa]

I started to say something far more caustic than I should, so I deleted it. There is no call for me to develop any kind of a bad attitude, and I almost did.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I started to say some far more caustic than I should, so I deleted it. There is no call for me to develop any kind of a bad attitude, and I almost did.

We all have differing opinions about the topic depending on our experience with observation. This is what a forum like this is all about - giving your views and defending them. It is about the discussion itself and not about the people giving their views. You can disagree with someone without sniping at the person who is disagreeing. What puts a thread off course with personal attacks and accusations is that some think that the best way of defending their position is to shoot down and discredit the people who disagree. I think that a person who is confident and stable in their view of the topic doesn't have to discredit others who disagree. Usually it is the person who is not teachable and has no answer to the points where someone else has made and so instead of conceding that the other person may be right, he attacks the person.

There have been the odd times when after quite a while of discussion and debate with a member, I have had to concede that he was right. In previous tongues threads I had many lively debates with Swordsman1 and Major1 (I haven't seen those two in the forum for quite a while) and although none of us would concede to the other, and sometimes the debates would get quite hot, we remained respectful to one another, and I actually miss their "fellowship" in the forum.

The forum would be boring if we all agreed with one another, and the really interesting threads are the ones that deal with contentious issues. My father was a very cunning debater. When my brother and I would have debates with him over politics and religion, he would goad us until we started yelling at him. Then he would say, "You've lost the argument, because you raised your voices!" My youngest brother, when he saw that he was going to lose the chess game, would suddenly have 'an accident' and upset the chess board so the actual checkmate wouldn't happen. We have people on these threads like that. When they sense they are losing the debate, they "nuke" the thread with personal attacks and accusations, causing it to be shut down.

 

[jiminpa]

We all have differing opinions about the topic depending on our experience with observation. This is what a forum like this is all about - giving your views and defending them. It is about the discussion itself and not about the people giving their views. You can disagree with someone without sniping at the person who is disagreeing. What puts a thread off course with personal attacks and accusations is that some think that the best way of defending their position is to shoot down and discredit the people who disagree. I think that a person who is confident and stable in their view of the topic doesn't have to discredit others who disagree. Usually it is the person who is not teachable and has no answer to the points where someone else has made and so instead of conceding that the other person may be right, he attacks the person.

There have been the odd times when after quite a while of discussion and debate with a member, I have had to concede that he was right. In previous tongues threads I had many lively debates with Swordsman1 and Major1 (I haven't seen those two in the forum for quite a while) and although none of us would concede to the other, and sometimes the debates would get quite hot, we remained respectful to one another, and I actually miss their "fellowship" in the forum.

The forum would be boring if we all agreed with one another, and the really interesting threads are the ones that deal with contentious issues. My father was a very cunning debater. When my brother and I would have debates with him over politics and religion, he would goad us until we started yelling at him. Then he would say, "You've lost the argument, because you raised your voices!" My youngest brother, when he saw that he was going to lose the chess game, would suddenly have 'an accident' and upset the chess board so the actual checkmate wouldn't happen. We have people on these threads like that. When they sense they are losing the debate, they "nuke" the thread with personal attacks and accusations, causing it to be shut down.

I agree, which is why removed my more snark than substance comment.

 

[TruthSeek3r]

There have been the odd times when after quite a while of discussion and debate with a member, I have had to concede that he was right. In previous tongues threads I had many lively debates with Swordsman1 and Major1 (I haven't seen those two in the forum for quite a while) and although none of us would concede to the other, and sometimes the debates would get quite hot, we remained respectful to one another, and I actually miss their "fellowship" in the forum.

Talking about Swordsman1, I just revived an old thread where I had an intense back-and-forth exchange of arguments with him on continuationism vs cessationism. You can read my latest post here.

Instead of debating exegesis of passages, you will notice that I intentionally narrowed the discussion to epistemology. My impression is that Cessationists tend to have a very inconsistent way of processing and interpreting testimonial evidence. When you present modern accounts of miracles to them, their response is pretty much indistinguishable from that of an atheist. Yet when you point to the miracle accounts in the Bible, they immediately take off their atheist hat and put on their believer hat. That's inconsistency at its finest. At least atheists are consistent and remain skeptical in front of all miracles without making exceptions or special pleadings.

 

[ARBITER01]

Talking about Swordsman1, I just revived an old thread where I had an intense back-and-forth exchange of arguments with him on continuationism vs cessationism. You can read my latest post here.

Instead of debating exegesis of passages, you will notice that I intentionally narrowed the discussion to epistemology. My impression is that Cessationists tend to have a very inconsistent way of processing and interpreting testimonial evidence. When you present modern accounts of miracles to them, their response is pretty much indistinguishable from that of an atheist. Yet when you point to the miracle accounts in the Bible, they immediately take off their atheist hat and put on their believer hat. That's inconsistency at its finest. At least atheists are consistent and remain skeptical in front of all miracles without making exceptions or special pleadings.

I'm sure you might have realized by now, that any sort of realistic talk about the gifts in the Controversial Theology Section automatically causes the cessationnist crowd to draw swords.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I'm sure you might have realized by now, that any sort of realistic talk about the gifts in the Controversial Theology Section automatically causes the cessationnist crowd to draw swords.

It creates a bit of fun when the forum runs a bit slow.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I'm just going to state some thoughts,...

You question the logic in this, but really it's not about logic, it's about each person's measure of faith and experience given them.

Do I believe that a Christian is suppose to do those works that Jesus did? Absolutely,... and even greater ones than He did since He sits at the right of The Father, but does everyone reach that standard that Jesus set? No,.... but it is His standard nonetheless that each of us believing in Him are to reach for. Wigglesworth, that you mentioned, was able to reach this standard, as well as Maria Woodsworth Etter here in America did. It's not something impossible, but it's not something easy either.

- Everyone's measure of faith given them is different.

Have I operated in these power gifts such as gifts of healings, gift of faith and working of miracles? Yes, each one for just moments here and there since being filled with The Spirit, but only in small amounts, only enough to know what they were and how GOD uses them with us, and what to expect.

Have I experienced the anointing upon my head and The Holy Spirit resting upon me in power? Yes, but only for a brief time early on after I was filled with The Spirit, just enough to know from GOD there was more than what I had already received, and that I should not get comfortable with the gifts and think that with them I was empowered for service. It was the anointing that was the next step for me, and GOD made sure I understood that, and pushed me to go through the trials for it.

- Will everyone experience this like I have? No,... everyone's experiences are different.

There are various levels of experience here on this board, and I believe within this particular forum, a great degree of knowledge and understanding over and above the other forum sections. This thread is a discussion, not a court case. I don't have to build an amount of evidence in front of a jury, we are suppose to present what truth we know on subjects and discuss it here amongst ourselves, and let The Holy Spirit witness things to our spirits inside when we are speaking and teaching correctly.

Iron does sharpen iron, but this is not an official debate,... it's a discussion.

Sorry about the late reply. Just getting back.

I pretty much take the same approach Francis Drake did. It's something I wouldn't mind believing if it were true, but I'm just not seeing enough evidence to believe it biblically.

But I do find the question interesting.

 

[Hidden In Him]

It creates a bit of fun when the forum runs a bit slow.

Naughty, naughty, Lol.

Not saying it to put a heavy on you, as I think you generally mean it in a pleasant enough way. But I'd watch about resorting to pulling people's chains when you're bored. You know how they can be as it is, and if they sense you are mostly just playing around with them it can create resentment.

Just a friendly warning. If you're bored, go play video games or something. That's what I do, Lol.

 

[ARBITER01]

Sorry about the late reply. Just getting back.

I pretty much take the same approach Francis Drake did. It's something I wouldn't mind believing if it were true, but I'm just not seeing enough evidence to believe it biblically.

But I do find the question interesting.

Wondered where you went.

The passage I quoted was Jesus talking. A lot of the cessationist types quickly try to say that Jesus was only talking to the apostles, but the Greek article is directed to everyone believing in Him.

I would still say that it is a measure of faith to fully believe that statement of His, but again, we have had folks in Christianity reach higher Spiritually than others, to where GOD operated through them on a more consistent basis. Maria Woodsworth Etters books are full of written testimony from people being healed, I mean jam packed with people who wrote her.

But anyways, I'm not going to belabor the point. It's where I stand with it, and it's one of my favorite scripture passages.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Instead of debating exegesis of passages, you will notice that I intentionally narrowed the discussion to epistemology. My impression is that Cessationists tend to have a very inconsistent way of processing and interpreting testimonial evidence. When you present modern accounts of miracles to them, their response is pretty much indistinguishable from that of an atheist. Yet when you point to the miracle accounts in the Bible, they immediately take off their atheist hat and put on their believer hat. That's inconsistency at its finest. At least atheists are consistent and remain skeptical in front of all miracles without making exceptions or special pleadings.

Excellent observation. They will bold-faced deny it, but it's true. It is a mind-block, and exposes the fact that they are not actually looking for the truth. They are determined only to defend a position.

 

[Hidden In Him]

The passage I quoted was Jesus talking. A lot of the cessationist types quickly try to say that Jesus was only talking to the apostles, but the Greek article is directed to everyone believing in Him.

Yes, and that was the part of your argument that made me think. But I can't embrace the idea that all true believers would do greater works than Him. I'm not sure you are actually taking that position either.

I think the passage might should be taken as addressed specifically to the twelve, and by extension to those who would be apostles of Christ and manifest "the signs of an apostle." In the Chapter, He is first talking to Thomas, and then to Phillip. The rest of that Chapter makes it clear he is still talking to the twelve specifically throughout. Addressing them directly, He says:

12 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. 13 And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask anything in My name, I will do it. If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

You can see by the latter portion of this that this is a very personal address, given to them specifically.

Will the end-time church do greater works? Absolutely. But I think applying these verses to every true believer to the level of performing greater works than Jesus may be taking it too far out of context. The only question for me in saying that is: Did the disciples even do greater works? but then "and greater works will he do" could be read as not placing any limits on how much they could do, rather than on an expectation.

 

[ARBITER01]

Yes, and that was the part of your argument that made me think. But I can't embrace the idea that all true believers would do greater works than Him. I'm not sure you are actually taking that position either.

I do.
The reason I accept what He said is that He now sits at the right of The Father in glory, so The Fathers works through us would be much stronger that what He was able to perform through Him as the Son of man down here.

I think the passage might should be taken as addressed specifically to the twelve, and by extension to those who would be apostles of Christ and manifest "the signs of an apostle." In the Chapter, He is first talking to Thomas, and then to Phillip. The rest of that Chapter makes it clear he is still talking to the twelve specifically throughout. Addressing them directly, He says:

12 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. 13 And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask anything in My name, I will do it. If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

You can see by the latter portion of this that this is a very personal address, given to them specifically.

Naaa, don't agree. There's nothing in His words identifying just the 12 apostles. Plus, we have people operating in power in the NT beyond just the apostles, Phillip the evangelist wasn't an apostle, Stephen and the rest were specifically chosen because they were full of The Holy Spirit, not just born again, and Stephen in particular started doing powerful deeds according to scripture until he was martyred.

Will the end-time church do greater works? Absolutely. But I think applying these verses to every true believer to the level of performing greater works than Jesus may be taking it too far out of context. The only question for me in saying that is: Did the disciples even do greater works? but then "and greater works will he do" could be read as not placing any limits on how much they could do, rather than on an expectation.

Well we do have an enemy out there working against us, and he was called the anointed cherub before, so he is fully aware of what the anointing is and the power of GOD. So yea, he works against us to try and keep us from reaching any great potential that GOD wants.

Most Christians won't reach it obviously, but we should have a greater standard to measure anyone that calls themselves a prophet than just taking their word at face value and expecting them just to speak "words" to us. GOD did many great things in the past with prophets, so I fully expect Him to rachet up the standard Himself here at some point. Revelation times are drawing near ever so quickly.

 

[lismore]

Instead of debating exegesis of passages, you will notice that I intentionally narrowed the discussion to epistemology. My impression is that Cessationists tend to have a very inconsistent way of processing and interpreting testimonial evidence. When you present modern accounts of miracles to them, their response is pretty much indistinguishable from that of an atheist.

Hello! There's a principle in the bible:

"by the mouth of two or three witnesses the matter shall be established” (Deuteronomy 19:15)
“that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established” (Matthew 18:16)
2 Corinthians 13:1 "Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses."

In my experience much of what is presented as 'testimonial evidence' of many things in Charismatic/ Pentecostal circles does not meet this standard. Sometimes it is vague, ambiguous or contradictory, unverifiable, lacking detail, presented by un-accountable, self promoting persons. Salesmen presenting rumours as fact.

The corporate reaction too is often suspect, material of ambiguous authenticity is not weighed or tested, it's promoted, even sold. Those revealed, even jailed, as con-men can continue, no questions asked.

Yet when you point to the miracle accounts in the Bible, they immediately take off their atheist hat and put on their believer hat. That's inconsistency at its finest.

Comparing this to the biblical standard:

1 Corinthians 15 The Resurrection of Christ
1 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

There were many appearances of the risen Lord, one to over 500 witnesses and all involving persons who could be contacted and asked.

God Bless

 

[SchmedlytheGreat]

This thread is in the Spirit-filled forum section. Any posts against the gifts of The Spirit or posts degrading church leaders in a demeaning way are prime candidates for reporting,.... your move.

To answer my own question,... I don't think so.

We have a great amount of folks that want each of us to accept their declaration of being a prophet on words alone,..... but no one who GOD operates in power through, from what I can tell.

To me, if it is based on words alone, that's not enough. Paul said "I shall know their power" and I have to agree. Our standard should be much higher for such a position, and it should be GOD witnessing through them in power.

Ephesians states that the ministry gifts will continue until the body is perfected.
We are not there yet. So I would have to say yes... they continue.

Ephesians 4:11-16 KJV
11. And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12. For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13. Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14. That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15. But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16. From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

 

[lismore]

Micah 3:8 But as for me, I am filled with power,
with the Spirit of the Lord,
and with justice and might,
to declare to Jacob his transgression,
to Israel his sin.

Micah saw prophecy as turning people towards repentance. Perhaps a slightly overlooked facet of prophecy today. God Bless

 

[ARBITER01]

Micah 3:8 But as for me, I am filled with power,
with the Spirit of the Lord,
and with justice and might,
to declare to Jacob his transgression,
to Israel his sin.

Micah saw prophecy as turning people towards repentance. Perhaps a slightly overlooked facet of prophecy today. God Bless

Very true!

As I've said in other threads, a prophet does more than just tell the future.