Are There Any Double-Predestination Lutherans?

gtmyers · Nov 16, 2015

The Presbyterian and reformed faith holds fast to the Tulip stuff. I learned lots about it in my time at the Associate Reformed Presbyterian congregation. The aspects of the sacraments are spiritualized as one poster already mentioned. As far as Lutherans believing in it Ive never met any. I believe in total depravity and unconditional election.

FireDragon76 · Nov 17, 2015

Lutherans are not Calvinists.

The whole of Lutheran theology is shaped by the Gospel, "Good News", and unlike Calvinist theology, it is not based on rationalistic speculation into God's will. Double Predesitanation is not "good news" in general. It's good for some, bad for others, and you have no way of knowing who it is good news for. It's not a doctrine shaped by a Lutheran hermeneutic, so it's quite frankly useless for preaching the Gospel. So the doctrine of predestination takes a seat in the back of the bus- useful to talk about at times but not something that should have prominence.

Luther seems to have himself believed in double predestination, at least much of his life. Many Christians actually did at the time. Yet in later years he wrote against the sort of fatalism he encountered pastorally among people that worry about predestination, and spoke out against the sort of fatalism he saw more akin the fanatical Turkish warriors of his time than to Christian hope. And yet, Lutherans are not merely following Luther (as he was not a systematic theologian, in fact sometimes he cautioned anyone in emulating him, he was "a wandering planet" and not a "fixed star"), and the Confessions do not accept double predestination in the Calvinist sense.

Upper Cut · Feb 5, 2016

Lutheran Theology (LCMS) would deny a predestination to damnation, as I under stand the teaching it is this:

1. Everyone born, by virtue of their sinful nature, is already condemned.

2. Before the foundation of the world, God elected those who he would bring to faith in Jesus Christ. This election was unconditional on the part of the elect. It was not based on his foreknowledge of who would accept this faith, nor was it a military muster where every 10th person was selected. The exact reason for the election of some and not others is essentially unknown to us

3. Simply put, everyone is deserving of gods wrath and punishment. Some people receive mercy, some receive justice, but no one receives injustice.

MarkRohfrietsch · Feb 28, 2016

GracetotheHumble said:
I believe in predestination so yes I would say my beliefs probably fall under this category. I am somewhat Calvinist in some ways I would say.

Double predestination is at odds with Confessional Lutheranism in general and the LCMS/LCC in specific.

MarkRohfrietsch · Feb 28, 2016

Tangible said:
I don't understand what a 5 point Lutheran is. Could you please explain?

No such thing.

Upper Cut · Feb 29, 2016

The Doctrine of election can be very divisive in certain circles because it is in-seperatly linked with total depravity. Most people do not want to believe they are as "bad as their neighbor" However, it is a biblical doctrine and should not be buried and never discussed. The Formula of concord (Solid declaration) does a reasonable job of explaining it. I think, if you are worried about your standing as one of the elect you are probably Ok since the non elect don't care. Read the word, pray, worship and trust in Christ. No one will be dragged into heaven against his will, and only the condemned will be cast into the lake of fire. If you can keep your pride from getting in the way, election should be a comforting thing that gives you peace.

GracetotheHumble · Mar 1, 2016

MarkRohfrietsch said:
Double predestination is at odds with Confessional Lutheranism in general and the LCMS/LCC in specific.

That's why I said that "I believe in it" and I didn't say "The LCMS".

ViaCrucis · Mar 7, 2016

A Lutheran holding to double-predestination, as others have noted, would be completely out of sync with five hundred years of Lutheran theology and would be rather appropriately called a crypto-Calvinist. The doctrine of the Cross is that our Lord suffered for the sins of the whole world, not only for the elect, and that by His death all might be saved; though there will be those who will refuse and reject this Gospel to their own destruction. Universal atonement, not limited atonement. Christ's blood doesn't cover only some sins, or only the sins of some people, it covers all sins--each and every last sin ever. And it is the will of God that all--yes, all--be saved.

Election isn't about God's sovereign right to save some and damn others as He so pleases, it is about the bountiful mercy of God toward sinners in Christ, and that in Christ we have true and assured hope of our salvation by the total efficacy of what He has done for us and the whole world.

Where this conflicts with reason, we confess the paradox and submit that God has not seen to make known everything to us, but only that which is necessary for salvation, and to therefore trust on His sure and certain word and promises: That He who suffered death on Calvary's cross is indeed the Savior of all men, and that in Him we have been chosen and can therefore, in confidence, confess that by the death and resurrection of the Savior we are indeed truly saved; not on account of our deeds or merits, but by the tender and great mercies of God. God will save the world because God loves the world, He is stubborn and ferocious in His kindness.

-CryptoLutheran

GracetotheHumble · Mar 7, 2016

I believe that the scriptures teach predestination so I will stand with scripture even if that means not being Lutheran in my belief.

Tigger45 · Mar 7, 2016

Lutheranism does teach single predestination but not double predestination.

GracetotheHumble said:
I believe that the scriptures teach predestination so I will stand with scripture even if that means not being Lutheran in my belief.

GracetotheHumble · Mar 7, 2016

Tigger45 said:
Lutheranism does teach single predestination but not double predestination.

I believe in both; does not the scripture say Jacob I loved but Esau I hated?

Tigger45 · Mar 7, 2016

Ultimately double predestination predestines some to eternal damnation.

GracetotheHumble · Mar 7, 2016

Tigger45 said:
Lutheranism does teach single predestination but not double predestination.

This doesn't make much sense. If some are predestined to heaven (single predestination) then where are the others destined to?

Tigger45 · Mar 7, 2016

GracetotheHumble said:
This doesn't make much sense. If some are predestined to heaven (single predestination) then where are the others destined too?

In double predestination those that aren't predestined to heaven are predestined to hell.

GracetotheHumble · Mar 7, 2016

Tigger45 said:
In double predestination those that aren't predestined to heaven are predestined to hell.

Right and that makes perfect sense. If some are predestined to heaven then the others aren't.

Albion · Mar 7, 2016

I seem to recall that it once was common in WELS before that body changed its view, and something in me thinks that a few of smaller, ultraconservative, Lutheran bodies still do. However, I just did a little survey of a couple of them and either found a clear renunciation of double predestination or else an affirmation of the standard Lutheran view that amounts to single predestination.

Tigger45 · Mar 7, 2016

GracetotheHumble said:
Right and that makes perfect sense. If some are predestined to heaven then the others aren't.

Then I believe you would have to consider yourself an non-confessional Lutheran by the standards of the Book of Concord.

Albion · Mar 7, 2016

GracetotheHumble said:
Right and that makes perfect sense. If some are predestined to heaven then the others aren't.

Not being predestined to salvation doesn't mean that you've been selected, from all eternity, for damnation, however.

GracetotheHumble · Mar 7, 2016

Albion said:
Not being predestined to salvation doesn't mean that you've been selected, from all eternity, for damnation, however.

If you aren't predestined to salvation then what are you selected for?

GracetotheHumble · Mar 7, 2016

Tigger45 said:
Then I believe you would have to consider yourself an non-confessional Lutheran by the standards of the Book of Concord.

I'm not worried about the semantics. I attend a Lutheran Church and agree with the majority of what is taught. So I am Lutheran and that's good enough for me.

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