Are there any creationists willing to debate?

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lucaspa

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Wildebeast said:
bring it on punk. i'm interested as to what questions have gone unanswered. so as the bible says 'let us sit down and reason together'

Hmm, you chose an interesting opening for a request to "reason together". Calling Pete a "punk" doens't seem very reasonable.

let's start with a few questions about the Flood as causing all of geology:

"I went on to criticize the flood geology of Whitcomb and Morris, introducing some still valid geological arguments that had not previously appeared in discussions of the deluge.
1. I argued that known rates of heat flow from bodies of crystallizing magma pose problems for those who contend that all fossil-bearing rocks were laid down during the single year of the biblical flood. On the New Jersey side of the Hudson River opposite Manhattan, there is a geological formation known as the Palisades sill, a thick sheet of rock of igneous origin that intruded into red sandstones and shales, Flood geologists of the Whitcomb-Morris school hold that the sand-stones and shales were laid down during the course of the flood, and hence they would logically have to assert that the magma was injected into this material during the course of the flood, cooled, hardened, tilted, and eroded before the other flood sediments settled atop it. But this would not have been possible. We know on the basis of heat flow considerations and the thickness of the sill that it would have taken several hundred years to cool and crystallize in the way it now appears. Indeed, many other much larger igneous rock bodies would have re-quired thousands to hundreds of thousands of years to lose their heat in order to crystallize. Flood geologists have made little attempt to refute this line of evidence.
2. Radiometric dating of igneous formations of the sort men-tioned above - formations that according to the Whitcomb-Morris theory must have been produced within the space of a single year -suggest that they are in fact millions of years old. These figures are consistent with ages predicted on the basis of stratigraphical relation-ships with the intruded rocks. Similar examples can be multiplied many times over
3. The phenomena of metamorphism also pose problems for flood geology. In some localities, fossils are found in rocks that also bear evidence of having undergone significant changes (metamorphism) as a result of having been exposed to very high temperatures and pressures. The problem for flood geologists is to show how a sedimen-tary rock, which they contend was formed at the surface of the earth during the course of the flood, could have been buried and heated fast enough to metamorphose. Both heat flow theory and known rates of chemical reactions indicate that such rocks could not possibly have undergone the observed metamorphism within a single year
4. A wealth of evidence associated with modern discoveries about continental drift and sea floor spreading indicate that various kinds of rocks - including varieties that the flood geologists maintain were formed during the course of the flood - must have been formed both before and after the separation of continents. If the flood geologists are right, this would imply that the continents must have been drifting apart substantially during the course of the flood. But thousands of miles of continental drift within the space of a few months is completely inconsistent with any known rates of drift.
I concluded the book with a look at Scripture, arguing that the biblical data (Gen. 2 in particular) suggest that pre-flood geography was fundamentally the same as post-flood geography which precludes the possibility of a global deluge involving a wholesale reorganization of terrestrial surface features." Davis A Young, The Biblical Flood, Pp 273-274.

You've got 4 questions unanswered by creationists in general.
 
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Pete Harcoff

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I think some people may have gotten the wrong idea from my opening post. Of course, it's my fault for using the word "debate" instead of "discuss" (as lucaspa pointed out). I was not trying to challenge creationists to a 1-on-1 debate or anything like that. I was trying to get creationists to come into discussions that are, for the most part, ignored.

The issue I'm trying to get to is some creationists come with certain ideas, present their ideas as being "correct", and toss out some material to support them. But then seeing non-creationists turn around and say, "okay, I've seen your idea, but here's a bunch of stuff that doesn't fit your idea, or shows your idea to be incorrect; how do you explain that?" And then watching as these counterpoints are largely ignored. Yet, those creationists will still insist they are correct, despite not being able to address or even attempt to address the counterpoints.

At which point there's little point in discussing things, since you'll end up with people talking past each other.

Another thing I think worth mentioning is this is a science forum. So, in order to discuss matters of science, one must be willing to work within the confines of scientific methodology. For example, saying something like, "the apple may look red, but really it's green" is not only non-scientific, it's non-debatable. We can wax philosophical all we want about the nature of reality, but it has nothing to do a discussion of science. But if you're going to insist the apple looks green, then the burden of proof is on you to not only provide your evidence, but be willing to discuss the issue when the other person says, "it actually looks red, and here's why..."..
 
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Oncedeceived

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lucaspa said:
Are you talking to someone in particular or the plural "you" of all of us evolutionists on the board?

I will show respect for YOU. However, you may find that I don't have respect for the IDEAS you propose. But ideas and statements are separate from the person making them.

Remember, my position after reviewing the data is that creationISM is a falsified theory. So please don't expect any "respect" in terms of the validity of creationISM.

When you are ready, why don't you start a new thread?

I was speaking to the you of the OP.

OKay. I think that saying Creationism is a falsified theory is rather premature but hey that is where discussion can come in. ;)

Okay, I might.
 
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Aceldama

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Oncedeceived said:
I was speaking to the you of the OP.

OKay. I think that saying Creationism is a falsified theory is rather premature but hey that is where discussion can come in. ;)

Okay, I might.

Creationism is a falsified theory, falsified 200 years ago. It is not premature to state that and I dont think many would disagree.
 
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lucaspa

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Pete Harcoff said:
The issue I'm trying to get to is some creationists come with certain ideas, present their ideas as being "correct", and toss out some material to support them. But then seeing non-creationists turn around and say, "okay, I've seen your idea, but here's a bunch of stuff that doesn't fit your idea, or shows your idea to be incorrect; how do you explain that?" And then watching as these counterpoints are largely ignored. Yet, those creationists will still insist they are correct, despite not being able to address or even attempt to address the counterpoints.

OK. Nicely said. To phrase this in scientific language for people, what Pete is saying is that creationists throw out a hypothesis or theory, and present a some supporting data. Then the non-creationists continue the scientific process of testing the hypothesis/theory in an attempt to falsify it. They find data that could not possibly be present IF the hypothesis/theory was correct and therefore show creationISM to be false. The creationist then ignores the falsifying data and insist that the hypothesis/theory is correct.

At which point there's little point in discussing things, since you'll end up with people talking past each other.

That becomes true in the sense that one of the discussants is simply not going to admit that the hypothesis/theory is falsified.

However, Pete, it does NOT matter whether the advocates of a theory ADMIT the theory is falsified. Statements, claims, hypotheses, theories are all independent of the people who propose them. So creationISM is falsified even if not one creationist in the forum ever admits it. You address the points 1) for people who are able to look dispassionately at the situaion and 2) to continue YOUR testing of creationISM. After all, if creationism raises a point that falsifies evolution, then we had better also have the dispassion to look at it.

But if you're going to insist the apple looks green, then the burden of proof is on you to not only provide your evidence, but be willing to discuss the issue when the other person says, "it actually looks red, and here's why..."..

Forget "burden of proof". It is a debating tactic. EVERYONE has an EQUAL "burden of proof" in a discussion.

A claim is made. That statement is independent of the person making it. Yes, ideally the person making it SHOULD have tried to falsify (and failed) the statement before making it public. However, the goal is still to test the statement in an attempt to falsify it. And that burden is on everybody, not just the person making the statement. We evaluate the STATEMENT, not the person.

Now, ideally, if the person making the claim cannot respond to the falsifying evidence, he/she should admit that the claim is falsified and then move on.
 
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lucaspa

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Oncedeceived said:
I was speaking to the you of the OP.

OKay. I think that saying Creationism is a falsified theory is rather premature but hey that is where discussion can come in.

As Aceldama pointed out, young earth creationism was falsified by 1831.

What is overlooked in modern creationism literature is that creaitonism was THE accepted theory from 1700 to 1831. It was shown to be false by the data, and the data that showed it false is still around today. Data doesn't go away. What we have in modern creationism is a group of people who refuse to accept that the theory is falsified.

"There is another way to be a Creationist. One might offer Creationism as a scientific theory: Life did not evolve over millions of years; rather all forms were created at one time by a particular Creator. Although pure versions of Creationism were no longer in vogue among scientists by the end of the eighteenth century, they had flourished earlier (in the writings of Thomas Bumet, William Whiston, and others). Moreover, variants of Creationism were supported by a number of eminent nineteenth-century scientists-William Buckland, Adam Sedgwick, and Louis Agassiz, for example. These Creationists trusted that their theories would accord with the Bible, interpreted in what they saw as a correct way. However, that fact does not affect the scientific status of those theories. Even postulating an unobserved Creator need be no more unscientific than postulating unobservable particles. What matters is the character of the proposals and the ways in which they are articulated and defended. The great scientific Creationists of the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries offered problem-solving strategies for many of the questions addressed by evolutionary theory. They struggled hard to explain the observed distribution of fossils. Sedgwick, Buckland, and others practiced genuine science. They stuck their necks out and volunteered information about the catastrophes that they invoked to explain biological and geological findings. Because their theories offered definite proposals, those theories were refutable. Indeed, the theories actually achieved refutation. In 1831, in his presidential address to the Geological Society, Adam Sedgwick publicly announced that his own variant of Creationism had been refuted:

Having, been myself a believer, and, to the best of my power, a propagator of what I now regard as a philosophic heresy ... I think it right, as one of my last acts before I quit this Chair, thus publicly to read my recantation.

We ought, indeed, to have paused before we first adopted the diluvian theory, and referred all our old superficial gravel to the action of the Mosaic Flood. For of man, and the works of his hands, we have not yet found a single trace among the remnants of a former world entombed in these ancient deposits. In classing together distant unknown formations under one name; in simultaneous origin, and in determining their date, not by the organic remains we have discovered, but by those we expected, hypothetically hereafter to discover, in them; we have given one more example of the passion with which the mind fastens upon general conclusions, and of the readiness with which it leaves the consideration of unconnected truths. (Sedgwick, 1831, 313-314; all but the last sentence quoted in Gillispie 1951, 142-143)
Philip Kitcher, Abusing Science: The Case Against Creationism pp125-126
 
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DGB454

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Are you guys really looking for a debate or a discussion? From all the post I have been reading on this topic it appears to me that people are trying to feed their ego and prove how wrong everyone else is and who right they are. I don't blame anyone for not wanting to discuss this any longer.
I always turns out the same where one group (and we know who they are.) tells you how stupid you are because you have different beliefs.



IMHO:cool:







(This commentary has been brought to you by the Ad hominem foundation for free speech)
 
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samiam

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DGB454 said:
From all the post I have been reading on this topic it appears to me that people are trying to feed their ego and prove how wrong everyone else is and who right they are.

I, alas, have to agree with you.

In fact, I have a journal entry which discusses this.

One quote from the entry:

The best way to approach a creationist is to not treat it like a debate about politics

- Sam
 
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samiam

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lucaspa said:
The creationist then ignores the falsifying data and insist that the hypothesis/theory is correct.

Exactly. This is the kind of behavior someone with a psychological problem engages in; in particular, this is a classic example of someone's denial mechanism going in to overdrive.

Creationism is not a scientific problem; creationism (in particular, young earth creationism) has been disproven a long time ago. It is a psychological problem.

The answer to creationism is to look at psychology textbooks and see what those books say about treating someone in denial.

- Sam
 
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Frumious Bandersnatch

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DGB454 said:
Are you guys really looking for a debate or a discussion? From all the post I have been reading on this topic it appears to me that people are trying to feed their ego and prove how wrong everyone else is and who right they are. I don't blame anyone for not wanting to discuss this any longer.
I always turns out the same where one group (and we know who they are.) tells you how stupid you are because you have different beliefs.



IMHO:cool:







(This commentary has been brought to you by the Ad hominem foundation for free speech)

I have never thought that most creationists are stupid. However, one begins to wonder about people who continue to believe stupid things in spite of the overwhelming evidence that the things they believe are stupid. One who puts forth ridiculous claims is likely to have them ridiculed. If you want to claim that all the animals on earth are descenced from a pair of each kind that a 600 year old man and his family saved from a year long worldwide flood on a huge wooden boat and that the earth's geological and fossil records are the result of a worldwide flood, fine, just don't be surprised that people who know a bit about science and the nature of the world find those claims ridiculous and are not shy about saying so. If you try to claim that there was a solid hydrogen canopy surrounding the earth or that human and dinosaur footprints have been found together or that a 1920's spark plug is an ancient out of place artifact feel free but don't expect anyone with a lick of sense and a bit of knowledge to consider such claims worthy of more than ridicule. You are free to believe that saber tooth tigers and velociraptors were vegetarians before the flood as many YECs do but don't be surprised if such "different" beliefs are met with ridicule.

The Frumious Bandersnatch
 
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ElElohe

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lucaspa said:
What obvious link? At least half the evolutionary biologists in history -- starting with Darwin -- have had the Christian worldview.

ElElohe, I know I've told you this before, but here it is again. CREATION and creationISM are two different things. Creation is the theological belief that deity created the universe. CreationISM is a specific HOW of creation. But evolution is also a HOW of creation.

Let me ask if you think it reasonable to hold strong opinions on subjects of which you are ignorant. Is that wise?

I won't disagree that there can be made the distinction between Creation and Creationism . . . and sorry if you have to repeat yourself . . . I can't always keep up with some threads. I'm not really an internet junkie . . . not here all the time.

And to your second statement, let me ask you if you can honestly say you don't have strong opinions about things of which you are ignorant? Honestly, now.

And I have said that I try and abstain from posting where I am not credible, but the issue here is that you would find things that I am convinced of being credible incredible--because of differing beliefs.

Would you rather this forum be only for scientists? Believe me, I'd rather be spending more time in the art forum, but it's rather slow. And by reading in here I'll learn some things, I'd guess, as do others who aren't in the field. And if we interject every once in a while, even if we aren't all learned in the field (but bring knowledge from other fields and POV's) so what? If you don't like conversation with people who don't have the extensive book knowledge in your same field I'm sure there's a forum that would better suit you on another site.

But I'll end by saying I respect you as the most well-spoken person here, and if possible, the most unbiased. Your posts are usually the most intelligent. But that doesn't mean you are always right, even in this forum (to which I believe you would conced. But sometime's your posts seem otherwise).
 
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Pete Harcoff

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samiam said:
I, alas, have to agree with you.

In fact, I have a journal entry which discusses this.

Interesting entry. One thing about not treating it like a debate about politics, is that it seems creationist organizations would rather treat it like politics. Rather than work within the scientific community to develop their ideas, they instead favor going to directly to the lay-public via web sites, sermons, books, etc.

It gets especially bad when you into discussions of teaching these subjects in school. The notion that both theories should be taught and that the students should be able to choose which one they like better. Sorry, but the universe does not operate according to the whim of the observer. Yet, this simple fact gets lost in many of the discussions and then the discussions are no longer about science.
 
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Pete Harcoff

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DGB454 said:
Are you guys really looking for a debate or a discussion? From all the post I have been reading on this topic it appears to me that people are trying to feed their ego and prove how wrong everyone else is and who right they are. I don't blame anyone for not wanting to discuss this any longer.

There are definitely egos at work here, but it goes both ways. Furthermore, based on the posting habits of creationists versus non-creationists, creationists seem less likely on the whole to actively address points raised by non-creationists. On the other hand, I haven't seen nearly as many non-creationists fail to address points raised by creationists (provided we are not talking about non-debatable philosophical positions; of course, those don't belong in this forum anyway).
 
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Pete Harcoff

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lucaspa said:
Forget "burden of proof". It is a debating tactic. EVERYONE has an EQUAL "burden of proof" in a discussion.

A claim is made. That statement is independent of the person making it. Yes, ideally the person making it SHOULD have tried to falsify (and failed) the statement before making it public. However, the goal is still to test the statement in an attempt to falsify it. And that burden is on everybody, not just the person making the statement. We evaluate the STATEMENT, not the person.

Now, ideally, if the person making the claim cannot respond to the falsifying evidence, he/she should admit that the claim is falsified and then move on.

Okay, I should of just used "burden" and left off the "of proof".

If a person makes a claim that X is true, and another person responds with that Y & Z show X to be false, then the burden is on the person claiming X is true to show that Y & Z do not show X to be false. If the person saying X is true is unwilling to do so, then they should not expect anyone else to think that X is true, in light of Y & Z.

Anyway, I think we're pretty much in agreement over this.
 
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Megachihuahua

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JohnR7 said:
Or as BabbleOn8806 said, they get tired of being insulted by scoffers and skeptics and soon come to realize it is a waste of time to try and convince someone of truth when they are hell bound to believe lies.
Yep. Never seem to answer my questions about why it's stupid, just change the subject.
Example:
I: Feathers are made of thousands of tiny hooks and there are four kinds and occasonally a fifth, but scales are smooth, and are there for armor.
Reply:nuh-uh. If you don't know the facts, you just prove what a moron you are.
or the ever popular:
you=moron
 
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Megachihuahua

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Pete Harcoff said:
There are definitely egos at work here, but it goes both ways. Furthermore, based on the posting habits of creationists versus non-creationists, creationists seem less likely on the whole to actively address points raised by non-creationists. On the other hand, I haven't seen nearly as many non-creationists fail to address points raised by creationists (provided we are not talking about non-debatable philosophical positions; of course, those don't belong in this forum anyway).
See post above. I'll give you the link if you want it. But it is off topic and is now a debate over cheese.
 
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Frumious Bandersnatch

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Megachihuahua said:
Yep. Never seem to answer my questions about why it's stupid, just change the subject.
Example:
I: Feathers are made of thousands of tiny hooks and there are four kinds and occasonally a fifth, but scales are smooth, and are there for armor.
Reply:nuh-uh. If you don't know the facts, you just prove what a moron you are.
or the ever popular:
you=moron

If you would like to debate feather evolution why not start a thread on it. I would be glad to contribute but I will be out of town attending a research conference for a week starting tomorrow afternoon.

BTW the validity or lack of validity of Darwin's theory of evolution is not relevant to the age of the earth or the myth of the worldwide flood and alleged evidence against evolution is in no way evidence for a young earth or worldwide flood. Did you ever hear of the logical fallacy of the false dichotomy?

The Frumious Bandersnatch
 
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Hi.
1st. I am a creationist incapable of debating it. I know what I believe and why I believe it..but would not be good at trying to convince either of u.
2nd. It appears to me from reading your posts that both of you are very dogmatic and would not be willing to ever accept anything from a creationist. Therefore, it would be senseless for someone to "debate" you and take the insults and scoffing. If you show yourselves open to change if someone can show you proof...you may get your debate. Y'all have a good day!! :)
 
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