Are the Ten Commandments moral laws?

[gadar perets]

Your reasoning is again completely backward to what Paul said about them having "no law" still fulfilling the law through the law "written on the heart":

Paul was not saying they "fulfilled" the whole law, but only those laws written on their hearts. Gentile converts had much to learn while hearing Moses read every Sabbath Day in the synagogues.

guess what? Muslims get a guilty conscience for eating on Ramadan.

Which just goes to show that the conscience does not necessarily determine what is moral law. Moral laws come from YHWH. Ramadan comes from man. If Muslims get a guilty conscience from eating on Ramadan, it is because they have been falsely taught it comes from "God". YHWH determines what is right and wrong. He has told us His laws are right and commanded us to do right. Obeying His laws are a matter of morality. To disobey any of His laws is immoral.

 

[gadar perets]

As opposed to what? Moral recommendations? Natural laws? Immoral laws? Something else?

"As opposed to" did not cross my mind. I was simply asking a question and seeking a yes or no answer.

 

[quatona]

"As opposed to" did not cross my mind. I was simply asking a question and seeking a yes or no answer.

Well, definition only work by virtue of an implicit "as opposed to".

 

[Nithavela]

A Gentile would not have a guilty conscience for breaking the Sabbath because he wouldn't even know what it is. Once he learns about it and learns that it is his Creator's will that we obey Him, then he would feel guilty for breaking it. I speak from experience.

You're not speaking for everyone. This gentile here doesn't feel bad for working on the sabbath (whichever day that is) while knowing plenty.

 

[lee-johnson]

We are not told what laws are written on the hearts of Gentiles, so we can't assume they have ALL moral laws written there. There are certainly other moral laws than the ones mentioned in Luke 18:20. Coveting my neighbors wife, worshiping another God besides YHWH, taking YHWH's name in vain are examples. When one understands what YHWH's laws are, then our conscience can be pricked.


A Gentile would not have a guilty conscience for breaking the Sabbath because he wouldn't even know what it is. Once he learns about it and learns that it is his Creator's will that we obey Him, then he would feel guilty for breaking it. I speak from experience.

In support to this; not all had/have a suitable heart / conscience and it was/is for these that laws are written and made commandment. For others more suitable & sensitive, guilt alone may guide them closer to God.

 

[gadar perets]

Well, definition only work by virtue of an implicit "as opposed to".

OK. If you insist on "as opposed to", are the Ten Commandments moral laws as opposed to ___________________ (fill in the blank).

 

[quatona]

OK. If you insist on "as opposed to", are the Ten Commandments moral laws as opposed to ___________________ (fill in the blank).

 

[gadar perets]

You're not speaking for everyone. This gentile here doesn't feel bad for working on the sabbath (whichever day that is) while knowing plenty.

That because you have not learned about the true Sabbath. The very fact that you said, "whichever day that is," proves you have not been taught the truth about the Sabbath by YHWH.

 

[gadar perets]

Sorry, but you are trying to force me to say something that is irrelevant. If a simple yes or no answer will not suffice for you, then explain your hesitance to answer.

 

[Nithavela]

That because you have not learned about the true Sabbath. The very fact that you said, "whichever day that is," proves you have not been taught the truth about the Sabbath by YHWH.

You do realise that this looks like circular logic from the outside?

 

[gadar perets]

You do realise that this looks like circular logic from the outside?

John 7:17 If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
​

I noticed your profile says "other religion". So, when you say "from the outside," do you mean outside of the faith revealed in the NT or outside of my personal belief in Sabbath keeping?

 

[Nithavela]

John 7:17 If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
​

I noticed your profile says "other religion". So, when you say "from the outside," do you mean outside of the faith revealed in the NT or outside of my personal belief in Sabbath keeping?

Outside view of christianity AND your logic.

 

[gadar perets]

Outside view of christianity AND your logic.

I am not a Christian. Feel free to refute my logic.

 

[Nithavela]

I am not a Christian. Feel free to refute my logic.

The point is that you say that a "gentile" that would know about the sabbath would feel a bad conscience for breaking it.

But apparently your definition of knowing is such that someone who "knows about the sabbath" would no longer qualify as a gentile.

So there is actually noone who fits your description of "a non-christian that knows about the sabbath", because the definition excludes any non-christians.

 

[quatona]

Sorry, but you are trying to force me to say something that is irrelevant. If a simple yes or no answer will not suffice for you, then explain your hesitance to answer.

I am not trying to force you to do anything, and I hope you aren´t trying to force me to answer. Why I can´t answer the question has been explained.

 

[gadar perets]

The point is that you say that a "gentile" that would know about the sabbath would feel a bad conscience for breaking it.

But apparently your definition of knowing is such that someone who "knows about the sabbath" would no longer qualify as a gentile.

So there is actually noone who fits your description of "a non-christian that knows about the sabbath", because the definition excludes any non-christians.

My actual words were, "Once he learns about it and learns that it is his Creator's will that we obey Him, then he would feel guilty for breaking it." The bold phrase is key. So, in other words, when a person not only desires to obey his Creator, but learns that the Sabbath is one of His commands that He desires us to obey, then he would feel guilty for breaking it.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

My actual words were, "Once he learns about it and learns that it is his Creator's will that we obey Him, then he would feel guilty for breaking it." The bold phrase is key. So, in other words, when a person not only desires to obey his Creator, but learns that the Sabbath is one of His commands that He desires us to obey, then he would feel guilty for breaking it.

Do you believe that acting morally is no more or less then being obedient?

Is something moral, because your God commands it, or does your God command something because it is moral?

 

[GrowingSmaller]

Not sure didn't the Hebrews focus n holiness rather than goodness? So they would be holy laws.

 

[gadar perets]

Do you believe that acting morally is no more or less then being obedient?

It is more than being obedient. Our Creator desires for us to do right whether it involves obedience to one of His commands or not.

Is something moral, because your God commands it, or does your God command something because it is moral?

Everything our Creator commands is moral because He is telling us what HE considers right or wrong behavior. Our Creator is the author of morality. Even before anything existed and before any commands were given, He existed as a being that could not be immoral. So every command stems from His morality. So, to answer your question, both. He commanded us not to steal because, in His mind, stealing is immoral.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

It is more than being obedient. Our Creator desires for us to do right whether it involves obedience to one of His commands or not.

In other words, moral behaviour is not dependend on wheter or not this God "commanded" it, but rather on something else.

What is that something else?

Everything our Creator commands is moral because He is telling us what HE considers right or wrong behavior. Our Creator is the author of morality.

These two sentences seem contradictory.

Even before anything existed and before any commands were given, He existed as a being that could not be immoral. So every command stems from His morality. So, to answer your question, both. He commanded us not to steal because, in His mind, stealing is immoral.

So, when this God decides if X is moral or not, what does he base that on?