Are the Ten Commandments moral laws?

[gadar perets]

Based on Webster's definition of "moral" and the following verse by the Apostle Paul, I would say yes.

Webster's definition of moral

1. 1 a : of or relating to principles of right and wrong in behavior : ethical <moral judgments> b : expressing or teaching a conception of right behavior <a moral poem> c : conforming to a standard of right behavior d : sanctioned by or operative on one's conscience or ethical judgment <a moral obligation> e : capable of right and wrong action <a moral agent>

Romans 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.​

If you agree they are moral laws, would it be immoral to break them? Again, I would say yes.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Based on Webster's definition of "moral" and the following verse by the Apostle Paul, I would say yes.

Webster's definition of moral

1. 1 a : of or relating to principles of right and wrong in behavior : ethical <moral judgments> b : expressing or teaching a conception of right behavior <a moral poem> c : conforming to a standard of right behavior d : sanctioned by or operative on one's conscience or ethical judgment <a moral obligation> e : capable of right and wrong action <a moral agent>

Romans 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.​

If you agree they are moral laws, would it be immoral to break them? Again, I would say yes.

Was God's command to not eat the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, a moral law?

 

[2X4]

Based on Webster's definition of "moral" and the following verse by the Apostle Paul, I would say yes.

Webster's definition of moral

1. 1 a : of or relating to principles of right and wrong in behavior : ethical <moral judgments> b : expressing or teaching a conception of right behavior <a moral poem> c : conforming to a standard of right behavior d : sanctioned by or operative on one's conscience or ethical judgment <a moral obligation> e : capable of right and wrong action <a moral agent>

Romans 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.​

If you agree they are moral laws, would it be immoral to break them? Again, I would say yes.

The Ten Commandments are spiritual laws that ALL God's created Men will be able to obey in the next generation. All the flesh of Man are condemned by the Ten Commandments during this first temporary generation. For one thing, none of them are understood unless you're "born again" in the Spirit of God.

 

[gadar perets]

Was God's command to not eat the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, a moral law?

I believe all of His laws are moral.

 

[John Hyperspace]

Underlying the concept of morality is conscience. I would say some of the ten commandments are moral laws; any of the ones that by breaking them, a loving person would acquire guilty conscience. Thus, the ones Jesus mentioned: Luke 18:20. Basically, to know what is moral look at how the people without the law "carved in stone" showed the law "written on the heart": Romans 2:14-15. John also expresses this by condemnation of one's own heart: 1 John 3:20-21.

So others would be a ritual law that has no basis in morality. For instance, a Gentile who didn't have "keep the sabbath" carved in stone, would never feel a guilty conscience, or be condemned by his heart or feel the need to repent for working on the sabbath. But a Gentile would feel guilty for hurting someone else. Thus John 13:34-35, John 15:12, Romans 13:8, 1 John 3:11, 1 John 4:12, 2 John 1:5

 

[gadar perets]

Underlying the concept of morality is conscience. I would say some of the ten commandments are moral laws; any of the ones that by breaking them, a loving person would acquire guilty conscience. Thus, the ones Jesus mentioned: Luke 18:20. Basically, to know what is moral look at how the people without the law "carved in stone" showed the law "written on the heart": Romans 2:14-15. John also expresses this by condemnation of one's own heart: 1 John 3:20-21.

We are not told what laws are written on the hearts of Gentiles, so we can't assume they have ALL moral laws written there. There are certainly other moral laws than the ones mentioned in Luke 18:20. Coveting my neighbors wife, worshiping another God besides YHWH, taking YHWH's name in vain are examples. When one understands what YHWH's laws are, then our conscience can be pricked.

So others would be a ritual law that has no basis in morality. For instance, a Gentile who didn't have "keep the sabbath" carved in stone, would never feel a guilty conscience, or be condemned by his heart or feel the need to repent for working on the sabbath. But a Gentile would feel guilty for hurting someone else. Thus John 13:34-35, John 15:12, Romans 13:8, 1 John 3:11, 1 John 4:12, 2 John 1:5

A Gentile would not have a guilty conscience for breaking the Sabbath because he wouldn't even know what it is. Once he learns about it and learns that it is his Creator's will that we obey Him, then he would feel guilty for breaking it. I speak from experience.

 

[gadar perets]

Underlying the concept of morality is conscience.

I agree, but the conscience does not need to be founded upon laws written in the heart. Breaking them would certainly affect the conscience, but so would breaking laws that are culturally learned. My conscience bothers me when I break man made speed limit laws or when I break a law of YHWH that I learned such as keeping the Sabbath day holy.

 

[John Hyperspace]

We are not told what laws are written on the hearts of Gentiles

We're told their conscience was the witness. Conscience will only come to bear when you've done something that hurts someone else. That's what causes a "guilty conscience"

When one understands what YHWH's laws are, then our conscience can be pricked.

That's exactly the opposite of "Gentiles which have not the law": they didn't need the law "carved in stone" to have a conscience. That's the point. That's love for you: you don't need it carved in stone to make you feel guilty for violating it when it's in your heart.

A Gentile would not have a guilty conscience for breaking the Sabbath because he wouldn't even know what it is.

That's the point. This is why Paul says of the Gentiles "which have not the law" and "these, having not the law" and "which shew the work of the law written in their hearts" and "their conscience also bearing witness": so the law "written on the heart" is the moral law. No one needs a law "written on stone" to fulfill the law written on the heart.

 

[John Hyperspace]

I agree, but the conscience does not need to be founded upon laws written in the heart. Breaking them would certainly affect the conscience, but so would breaking laws that are culturally learned. My conscience bothers me when I break man made speed limit laws or when I break a law of YHWH that I learned such as keeping the Sabbath day holy.

Can you explain why billions of Christians know the ten commandments and none of them feels a guilty conscience for working on Saturday? But every one of them would feel a guilty conscience for hurting someone?

 

[gadar perets]

We're told their conscience was the witness. Conscience will only come to bear when you've done something that hurts someone else. That's what causes a "guilty conscience"

"Someone else" includes YHWH. Also, the person does not need to know they have been hurt for our conscience to feel guilty. If I caused you to work on the Sabbath Day, my conscience would feel guilty because I hurt both you and YHWH.

That's exactly the opposite of "Gentiles which have not the law": they didn't need the law "carved in stone" to have a conscience. That's the point. That's love for you: you don't need it carved in stone to make you feel guilty for violating it when it's in your heart.

They certainly needed the law to tell them they did wrong by worshiping idols or by making graven images, etc.

That's the point. This is why Paul says of the Gentiles "which have not the law" and "these, having not the law" and "which shew the work of the law written in their hearts" and "their conscience also bearing witness": so the law "written on the heart" is the moral law. No one needs a law "written on stone" to fulfill the law written on the heart.

I agree the law written on the heart is the moral law, but any laws they learned later would become moral laws to them as well. When they learned they were not to eat things strangled or blood, those laws became moral laws to them. If they ate blood after becoming believers and learning of those laws, they would have a guilty conscience by doing so.

 

[gadar perets]

Can you explain why billions of Christians know the ten commandments and none of them feels a guilty conscience for working on Saturday? But every one of them would feel a guilty conscience for hurting someone?

Sure. Because they have all been falsely taught that either there is no more Sabbath Day or it has been changed to Sunday. They do not know it is YHWH's will for them.

 

[John Hyperspace]

"Someone else" includes YHWH. Also, the person does not need to know they have been hurt for our conscience to feel guilty. If I caused you to work on the Sabbath Day, my conscience would feel guilty because I hurt both you and YHWH.


They certainly needed the law to tell them they did wrong by worshiping idols or by making graven images, etc.


I agree the law written on the heart is the moral law, but any laws they learned later would become moral laws to them as well. When they learned they were not to eat things strangled or blood, those laws became moral laws to them. If they ate blood after becoming believers and learning of those laws, they would have a guilty conscience by doing so.

Well, I don't think anyone is going to try to change your beliefs on what constitutes a moral law. I'm willing to wager that no one on the earth but "sabbath worshippers" are going to agree with your proposition that working on a certain day of the week will naturally cause a guilty conscience, or, be viewed by anyone other than "sabbath worshippers" as immoral.

 

[roamer_1]

I would say some of the ten commandments are moral laws [...] So others would be a ritual law that has no basis in morality.

YHWH has stated empirically that there is no division in his Torah. Do not add to or take away.

I will believe him

 

[gadar perets]

Well, I don't think anyone is going to try to change your beliefs on what constitutes a moral law. I'm willing to wager that no one on the earth but "sabbath worshippers" are going to agree with your proposition that working on a certain day of the week will naturally cause a guilty conscience, or, be viewed by anyone other than "sabbath worshippers" as immoral.

Of course not. That is because we have lived it and know that breaking it causes a guilty conscience. You cannot possibly know that because you have never been a Sabbath keeper.

 

[John Hyperspace]

YHWH has stated empirically that there is no division in his Torah. Do not add to or take away.

I will believe him

That's great; but the question was about morality, not asking what you believed. Atheists don't believe in most gods, doesn't mean they don't get a guilty conscience when they hurt others. Morality goes beyond things written down on paper or stone; it comes from a working heart that has love in it. There's a reason atheists don't get a guilty conscience from working on Saturday, but do when they hurt others. The reason is called "written on the heart"

 

[John Hyperspace]

Of course not. That is because we have lived it and know that breaking it causes a guilty conscience. You cannot possibly know that because you have never been a Sabbath keeper.

Your reasoning is again completely backward to what Paul said about them having "no law" still fulfilling the law through the law "written on the heart": guess what? Muslims get a guilty conscience for eating on Ramadan. So is violating Ramadan immoral? No it isn't; not unless breaking non-moral ritual law causes you a guilty conscience. And non-moral ritual law can't naturally cause a guilty conscience, it can only cause a guilty conscience when the ritual is drilled into your mind as something you have to do to "be good"

But again, everyone everywhere, regardless of ritual law, gets a guilty conscience for hurting others.

 

[roamer_1]

There's a reason atheists don't get a guilty conscience from working on Saturday, but do when they hurt others. The reason is called "written on the heart"

I will disagree firmly. What one feeels is good or moral is often far from it.

 

[John Hyperspace]

I will disagree firmly. What one feeels is good or moral is often far from it.

Well just make sure to fast on Ramadan and do every other ritual law in existence, because by your logic violation of all ritual law is immoral. The only reason it doesn't hurt your conscience to not fast on Ramadan is because you just don't know it yet. Doesn't make much sense when you step outside of your own box for a second, does it?

 

[roamer_1]

Well just make sure to fast on Ramadan and do every other ritual law in existence, because by your logic violation of all ritual law is immoral.

It is immoral to keep Ramadan, for the same reason it is immoral to keep christmas.

The only reason it doesn't hurt your conscience to not fast on Ramadan is because you just don't know it yet.

no, the reason it doesn't hurt my conscience to fail to keep Ramadan is because YHWH didn't ordain it.

Doesn't make much sense when you step outside of your own box for a second, does it?

It is not my box.

 

[quatona]

Are the Ten Commandments moral laws?

As opposed to what? Moral recommendations? Natural laws? Immoral laws? Something else?

If you agree they are moral laws, would it be immoral to break them?

For everyone who subscribes to the morality expressed in them: Yes.