are the submarines in the book of mormon just a bit much to believe..

[joneysd]

come on who could have built a submarine in that era....

 

[bbbbbbb]

Just a bit of context here. The statement is from the book of Ether where the brother of Jared is directed by the Lord to build unpowered submarines, termed barges, to cross the ocean to the promised land. They are capable of maintaining an air supply underwater by opening a hole.

This is decidedly in the realm of mythology as it is physically impossible to open a hole in a submarine while it is submerged and not have it sink.

 

[Ironhold]

That would depend upon how quickly people react...

 

[Ran77]

Just a bit of context here. The statement is from the book of Ether where the brother of Jared is directed by the Lord to build unpowered submarines, termed barges, to cross the ocean to the promised land. They are capable of maintaining an air supply underwater by opening a hole.

This is decidedly in the realm of mythology as it is physically impossible to open a hole in a submarine while it is submerged and not have it sink.

Wow. Completely not what is described. Then again, that is what I have learned to expect from our critics. Arguments that do not actually reflect what we believe.

 

[mmksparbud]

Just a bit of context here. The statement is from the book of Ether where the brother of Jared is directed by the Lord to build unpowered submarines, termed barges, to cross the ocean to the promised land. They are capable of maintaining an air supply underwater by opening a hole.

This is decidedly in the realm of mythology as it is physically impossible to open a hole in a submarine while it is submerged and not have it sink.

SAY WHAAAT??? Where in Esther is that?????

 

[bbbbbbb]

Wow. Completely not what is described. Then again, that is what I have learned to expect from our critics. Arguments that do not actually reflect what we believe.

Wow! You probably consider Wikipedia to be an anti-LDS website. Here is the link to the site from which I directly quoted the information - Book of Ether - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here is the actual text from Ether 2:16-25

16 And the Lord said: Go to work and build, after the manner of barges which ye have hitherto built. And it came to pass that the brother of Jared did go to work, and also his brethren, and built barges after the manner which they had built, according to the instructions of the Lord. And they were small, and they were light upon the water, even like unto the lightness of a fowl upon the water. 17 And they were built after a manner that they were exceedingly tight, even that they would hold water like unto a dish; and the bottom thereof was tight like unto a dish; and the sides thereof were tight like unto a dish; and the ends thereof were peaked; and the top thereof was tight like unto a dish; and the length thereof was the length of a tree; and the door thereof, when it was shut, was tight like unto a dish.
18 And it came to pass that the brother of Jared cried unto the Lord, saying: O Lord, I have performed the work which thou hast commanded me, and I have made the barges according as thou hast directed me.
19 And behold, O Lord, in them there is no light; whither shall we steer? And also we shall perish, for in them we cannot breathe, save it is the air which is in them; therefore we shall perish.
20 And the Lord said unto the brother of Jared: Behold, thou shalt make a hole in the top, and also in the bottom; and when thou shalt suffer for air thou shalt unstop the hole and receive air. And if it be so that the water come in upon thee, behold, ye shall stop the hole, that ye may not perish in the flood.
21 And it came to pass that the brother of Jared did so, according as the Lord had commanded.
22 And he cried again unto the Lord saying: O Lord, behold I have done even as thou hast commanded me; and I have prepared the vessels for my people, and behold there is no light in them. Behold, O Lord, wilt thou suffer that we shall cross this great water in darkness?
23 And the Lord said unto the brother of Jared: What will ye that I should do that ye may have light in your vessels? For behold, ye cannot have windows, for they will be dashed in pieces; neither shall ye take fire with you, for ye shall not go by the light of fire.
24 For behold, ye shall be as a whale in the midst of the sea; for the mountain waves shall dash upon you. Nevertheless, I will bring you up again out of the depths of the sea; for the winds have gone forth out of my mouth, and also the rains and the floods have I sent forth.
25 And behold, I prepare you against these things; for ye cannot cross this great deep save I prepare you against the waves of the sea, and the winds which have gone forth, and the floods which shall come. Therefore what will ye that I should prepare for you that ye may have light when ye are swallowed up in the depths of the sea?

 

[bbbbbbb]

SAY WHAAAT??? Where in Esther is that?????

Not Esther, but Ether. There is a huge difference between the two.

 

[joneysd]

Just a bit of context here. The statement is from the book of Ether where the brother of Jared is directed by the Lord to build unpowered submarines, termed barges, to cross the ocean to the promised land. They are capable of maintaining an air supply underwater by opening a hole.

This is decidedly in the realm of mythology as it is physically impossible to open a hole in a submarine while it is submerged and not have it sink.

the submarines carry people and livestock on a voyage and they are designed so not even a whale could sink them, they had holes top and bottom as they were designed to turn anyway necessary but there would always be a hole at the top if air we needed, some serious problems if they simply turn so either way can be up wouldn't the live stock be falling on people..

 

[mmksparbud]

Not Esther, but Ether. There is a huge difference between the two.

OOOPS!---I obviously misread that----ok--thank you.

 

[Ran77]

Wow! You probably consider . . .

I consider it ridiculous that anyone would even attempt to present what I think, or consider, on a topic rather than allowing me to speak for myself. Beyond that, I can state without hesitation that you routinely attempt to pass off views and beliefs as belonging to the LDS that do not reflect our actual views and beliefs. What purpose that supposedly serves, I cannot imagine.

 

[joneysd]

I consider it ridiculous that anyone would even attempt to present what I think, or consider, on a topic rather than allowing me to speak for myself. Beyond that, I can state without hesitation that you routinely attempt to pass off views and beliefs as belonging to the LDS that do not reflect our actual views and beliefs. What purpose that supposedly serves, I cannot imagine.

so are you saying the submarines were never built??

how can a direct quote not be true?

do you believe the boats never existed??

 

[faroukfarouk]

so are you saying the submarines were never built??

how can i direct quote not be true?

do you believe the boats never existed??

The Confederate States had some success with submarines in the 1860s; I wonder if technology as it developed had some influence on the book of Mormon?

 

[joneysd]

The Confederate States had some success with submarines in the 1860s; I wonder if technology as it developed had some influence on the book of Mormon?

it is very likely..

 

[faroukfarouk]

it is very likely..

What I thought also...

 

[Theway]

come on who could have built a submarine in that era....

I wonder why you call them submarines when it specifically says barges?

 

[bbbbbbb]

I wonder why you call them submarines when it specifically says barges?

The description of the barges is not at all of what is actually what we know to be barges - a flat-bottomed boat for carrying freight, typically on canals and rivers, either under its own power or towed by another.

The description is much closer to what is known as a submarine. The vessel described is airtight and intended to be surrounded by water. No barge meets those functional requirements.

 

[joneysd]

The description of the barges is not at all of what is actually what we know to be barges - a flat-bottomed boat for carrying freight, typically on canals and rivers, either under its own power or towed by another.

The description is much closer to what is known as a submarine. The vessel described is airtight and intended to be surrounded by water. No barge meets those functional requirements.

it is obvious by the description they were meant to be submarines, funny how the lds would try to deny it..

why would you need two holes for fresh air on barge..lol

 

[Theway]

The description of the barges is not at all of what is actually what we know to be barges - a flat-bottomed boat for carrying freight, typically on canals and rivers, either under its own power or towed by another.

The description is much closer to what is known as a submarine. The vessel described is airtight and intended to be surrounded by water. No barge meets those functional requirements.

Go back and read what it says...
It doesn't fit either "modern" understanding of a barge or a boat. Once again, you guys are guilty of the Fallacy of Presentism.
However it more closely does resemble a barge than a submarine. The fact that it says it was light upon the waters means that you could not even call it a submersible, for it would be impossible for it to remain under water.
Unless it had ballast tanks and propulsion system; however the was no propulsion as was noted in the Book of Mormon, nor was there any mention of ballast tanks either.

It seems you guys are always trying to skew things to fit your sensationalism agenda, by playing lose with the facts... The reality is a lot more boring.

What's funny though is that by wasting all your time making stuff up, you missed the far more unlikely aspect of the story... "The rocks the glowed"

Seems you guys just can't seem to win one.

 

[Ran77]

so are you saying the submarines were never built??

I am stating that our critics misrepresent the information. In this case, why don't you show us where it states anywhere that submarines were built. The choice to use that word instead of "barges" is a prime example of how our critics focus on their faulty interpretation of what is written rather than what it actually states.

how can a direct quote not be true?

I just explained above. A person, in this case you and bbbbbbb, take a direct quote that mentions barges and for purposes of their agenda substitutes the word submarine for it. Then they focus on how ridiculous it is to have submarines. The problem being that they are the one who have creatively, rather than factually, dubbed these barges as submarines.

This is commonly known as a straw man.

do you believe the boats never existed??

Again, you apply the creative reasoning that took you from barges to submarines in order to suggest a motive for my objections rather than the obvious answer; which is that I am objecting to your misrepresentation of the topic.

 

[Ran77]

Go back and read what it says...
It doesn't fit either "modern" understanding of a barge or a boat. Once again, you guys are guilty of the Fallacy of Presentism.
However it more closely does resemble a barge than a submarine. The fact that it says it was light upon the waters means that you could not even call it a submersible, for it would be impossible for it to remain under water.
Unless it had ballast tanks and propulsion system; however the was no propulsion as was noted in the Book of Mormon, nor was there any mention of ballast tanks either.

It seems you guys are always trying to skew things to fit your sensationalism agenda, by playing lose with the facts... The reality is a lot more boring.

What's funny though is that by wasting all your time making stuff up, you missed the far more unlikely aspect of the story... "The rocks the glowed"

Seems you guys just can't seem to win one.

Hey, no fair introducing logic into this discussion. Stop it.