Are the Jews saved...

Tishri1 · Nov 10, 2005

Are the Jews saved by their belief in God? What to you think?

Yovel · Nov 10, 2005

I would say only G-d knows. we can't judge who is saved or not.

plum · Nov 10, 2005

I think I also have to defer to that answer as well. I wish I knew for sure, but I don't. We can't even know what Christians will inherit eternal life, correct?....

simchat_torah · Nov 10, 2005

Yes His promises last forever.

BarbB · Nov 10, 2005

I haven't a clue, but I'm praying that they are!

jgonz · Nov 10, 2005

I believe it's the condition of their hearts... just like it is with non-Jews. Faith is what saves a person.

Talmidah · Nov 10, 2005

jgonz said:
I believe it's the condition of their hearts... just like it is with non-Jews. Faith is what saves a person.

Hi jgonz,
May I ask if you mean faith in G-d or faith Yeshua?

Thank you

Bruce101 · Nov 10, 2005

Talmidah said:
Hi jgonz,
May I ask if you mean faith in G-d or faith Yeshua?

Thank you

I ditto the question.

Bruce

Henaynei · Nov 10, 2005

Talmidah said:
Hi jgonz,
May I ask if you mean faith in G-d or faith Yeshua?

Thank you

it is one and the same... so many of us believe.

jgonz · Nov 10, 2005

May I ask if you mean faith in G-d or faith Yeshua?

Like Henaynei said~ They're one & the same so you don't need to get nick-picky. Abraham and Noah were saved by faith... and Messiah hadn't come yet, so obviously it was a true belief in Adonai and the promise of the Messiah they believed in.

Higher Truth · Nov 11, 2005

John 3
1 But there was a man from the Pharisees, Nicodemus his name, a ruler of the Jews.
2 This one came to Jesus by night and said to Him, Rabbi, we know that You have come as a teacher from God. For no one is able to do these miraculous signs which You do, except God be with Him.
3 Jesus answered and said to him, Truly, truly, I say to you, If one is not generated from above, he is not able to see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus said to Him, How is a man able to be generated, being old? He is not able to enter into his mother's womb a second time and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Truly, truly, I say to you, If one is not generated out of water and Spirit, he is not able to enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That having been generated out of the flesh is flesh, and that having been generated out of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Do not wonder because I said to you, You must be generated from above.
8 The Spirit breathes where He desires, and you hear His voice; but you do not know from where He comes, and where He goes; so is everyone having been generated from the Spirit.
9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, How are these things able to occur?
10 Jesus answered and said to him, You are the teacher of Israel, and you do not know these things?
11 Truly, truly, I say to you, That which we know, we speak; and that which we have seen, we testify. And you do not receive our testimony.
12 If I tell you earthly things, and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
13 And no one has gone up into Heaven, except He having come down out of Heaven, the Son of Man who is in Heaven.
14 And even as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
15 that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
18 The one believing into Him is not condemned; but the one not believing has already been condemned, for he has not believed into the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Is God then finished with His people?

Romans 11
1 I say then, Did not God thrust away His people? Let it not be! For I also am an Israelite, out of Abraham's seed, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 "God did not thrust away His people" whom He foreknew. Psa. 94:14 Or do you not know what the Scripture said in Elijah, how he pleaded with God against Israel, saying,
3 Lord, "they killed Your prophets," "and they dug down Your altars," "and only I am left, and they seek my life." 1 Kg. 19:10
4 But what does the Divine answer say to him, "I reserved to Myself seven thousand men who did not bow a knee to Baal." 1 Kg. 19:18
5 So then, also in the present time a remnant according to election of grace has come into being.
6 But if by grace, no longer is it of works; else grace no longer becomes grace. But if of works, it is no longer grace; else work is no longer work.
7 What then? What Israel seeks, this it did not obtain, but the election obtained it, and the rest were hardened;
8 even as it has been written, "God gave to them a spirit of slumber, eyes not seeing and ears not hearing" until this day. Isa. 29:10; Deut. 29:4
9 And David said, "Let their table become for a snare and a trap, and for a stumbling block," and a repayment to them;
10 "let their eyes be darkened, not to see, and their back always bowing." LXX-68:23, 24; MT-Psa. 69:22, 23
11 I say, then, Did not they stumble that they fall? Let it not be! But by their slipping away came salvation to the nations, to provoke them to jealousy.
12 But if their slipping away is the riches of the world, and their default the riches of the nations, how much more their fullness?
13 For I speak to you, the nations, since I am an apostle of the nations, (I glorify my ministry),
14 if somehow I may provoke to jealousy my flesh, and may save some of them.
15 For if their casting away is the reconciliation of the world, what is the reception, except life from the dead?
16 Now if the firstfruit is holy, so also the lump. And if the root is holy, so also the branches.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree were grafted in among them, and became a sharer of the root and the fatness of the olive tree,
18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, it is not you that bears the root, but the root bears you.
19 You will say then, The branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.
20 Well! For unbelief they were broken off. And you stand by faith. Do not be highminded, but fear.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, fear that it may be He will not spare you either.
22 Behold, then, the kindness and severity of God: On those having fallen, severity. But on you, kindness, if you continue in the kindness. Otherwise, you will also be cut off.
23 And those also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in. For God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if you were cut out of the natural wild olive tree, and against nature were grafted into a good olive tree, how much more these being according to nature will be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be wise within yourselves, that hardness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the nations comes in;
26 and so all Israel will be saved, even as it has been written, "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob.
27 And this is My covenant with them, when I take away their sins." Isa. 59:20, 21

He is not a respecter of persons as stated to the Roman centurian:

Acts 10
34 Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

DavidHaCohen · Nov 11, 2005

Didn't G-d say He would never destroy or forsake Israel? Hasn't He been preserving His people for such a long time? Is He doing that only out of a sadistic pleasure of throw ing them all in hell when they die?

Plus from what I understand it has only been a few years since people stopped portraying Jesus as a Torah-breaking Jew-hating Messiah. Only recently has the Catholic church and other churches started adopting a more loving attitude towards Jews. Heck, fifty years ago many of us were being tortured and killed in the name of Jesus. And it is even more recently that people have been presenting a message that reconciles Jesus and Torah. It is only recently that Jesus the rabbi has been more widely spoken about. Where I live, people only started hearing about this faith in the last 10 years. AND there is still a lot of distrust since several deceptive techniques have been employed in the past with the sole purpose of destroying Judaism or the Jewish people.

So after all this my question is: How could Jews up to 10~20 years ago even consider accepting a Jew-hating anti-Torah Messiah? Torah itself would tell us to reject such Messiah. And even to this very day, we are still bruised by the past hurt some of the followers of Christ have inflicted on us. The wounds have not healed yet.

Then because of our rejection of a false, hating message G-d will throw the apple of his eye IN HELL??? I'd rather be an atheist then.

Only now have Jews like myself just begun being shown a different message. I really love the way you reconcile Jesus and Judaism. I think Jesus has a lot to offer to Judaism, and Judaism has a lot to offer to Jesus followers. But it'll take time for the wounds to heal.

I'm not messianic so I'm not here to debate but only to say that if G-d has chosen me as part of His people so that I might suffer persecution from the Christian world (which sadly I still do to this very day) and in the end be cast into the lake of fire then what kind of love can such a G-d ask of us?

Dave

Talmidah · Nov 11, 2005

jgonz said:
Like Henaynei said~ They're one & the same so you don't need to get nick-picky. Abraham and Noah were saved by faith... and Messiah hadn't come yet, so obviously it was a true belief in Adonai and the promise of the Messiah they believed in.

Sorry jgonz...I'm not trying to 'nick-picky'. I sincerely want to understand. I have known and studied with many messianics (back when I was one). The standard belief is that everyone, including the Jews, need to believe in and accept Yeshua in order to obtain salvation. I know there are many individuals who see things a little differently, and you guys here may be of them. So, at the risk of nick-pickiness...can I just make sure that I understand your (and others' here) view? A Jew who believes in Hashem can believe that Yeshua probably didn't exist and, if he did, was definitely not Hashem, not divine, and not the messiah, and they don't have to worry their 'salvation', and messianics will not be worried about reaching out to them or showing them the truth of Yeshua (as opposed to the christian view of Jesus)?

(Please know...I'm not trying to trap anyone, or get into any debate. I'm just trying to get a deeper understanding of your views here)

debi b · Nov 11, 2005

DavidHaCohen said:
So after all this my question is: How could Jews up to 10~20 years ago even consider accepting a Jew-hating anti-Torah Messiah? Torah itself would tell us to reject such Messiah. And even to this very day, we are still bruised by the past hurt some of the followers of Christ have inflicted on us. The wounds have not healed yet.

Dave

This is exactly why this subject is so hard to discuss. And why EVERYONE needs to be painfully careful May the day come when the wounds heal

Even I can not accept the portrayal of Yeshua as Jew-hating anti-Torah Messiah Fortunatly there is an alternative.

jgonz · Nov 11, 2005

I'm sorry Talmidah, I was trying to make a joke but it obviously didn't translate well. I do understand your question and the reason why you're asking it.

Jews and Gentiles alike need to be "born-again" into Messiah (as the Scriptures that Higher Truth posted above state) . G-d set the Hebrews apart, gave them His instructions to live by, made them different to be a light unto the nations. To draw all men to Himself. But this "setting apart" didn't save anyone. Belief in G-d saves the person. Faith is what saves.

There are people all over the world (Jew, Gentile, Muslim, Hindu, whatever) who G-d is drawing to Himself. They see ~ the veil is lifted off their eyes, they understand the calling of the Holy Spirit. They come to Him, at whatever expense it takes. Not everyone sees this or hears the call of the Holy Spirit, but the ones that do are His.

We have to be willing to "step out of the box", look at Scripture, hear the L-rd outside of our preconceived notions, out of the ways we've been taught is right, and figure it out for ourselves. We have to question and depend on the L-rd to show us the answers, not just blindly depend on our backgrounds and doctrines we've been taught to be correct. (This is something I struggle with on a daily basis, so I'm pretty much talking to myself here. lol)

Does this help or make things more complicated?

BarbB · Nov 11, 2005

Heck, fifty years ago many of us were being tortured and killed in the name of Jesus.

.... I understand!

DavidHaCohen · Nov 11, 2005

Newlamb,
I'm not questioning that. And in fact whether or not Hitler was a Christian is a moot point here.

But those Jews like my zeide who were killed in the camps heard from the nazi soldiers that they were being put to death in the name of Jesus. The impacts of such affirmation on the Jewish people, who had already been murdered by the thousands in crusades and inquisitions, cannot be overlooked. I know that Jesus didn't tell anyone to kill the Jews and I also know that Hitler was not a real Christian but how can you possibly want someone who's been to the camps to believe in Jesus? Right or wrong, they were tortured and butchered in the name of Jesus. And it's not their fault. They didn't go to the camps by their own free will. And then G-d comes and throws them IN HELL? If that is true, then such G-d is not worthy of our love. That is definetly not the loving Father of Israel.

Dave

newlamb said:
I refuse to believe this revisionist history. Hitler and the Gestapo were occultists who would have, if they could have, perverted even Christ to their evil ends. Fortunately G-d will take only so many lies.

Jesus had absolutely nothing to do with Germany, the concentration camps, the SS, Hitler, etc. The Hitler was a Christian card doesn't work, if it ever did.

Tishri1 · Nov 11, 2005

DavidHaCohen said:
Newlamb,
I'm not questioning that. And in fact whether or not Hitler was a Christian is a moot point here.

But those Jews like my zeide who were killed in the camps heard from the nazi soldiers that they were being put to death in the name of Jesus. The impacts of such affirmation on the Jewish people, who had already been murdered by the thousands in crusades and inquisitions, cannot be overlooked. I know that Jesus didn't tell anyone to kill the Jews and I also know that Hitler was not a real Christian but how can you possibly want someone who's been to the camps to believe in Jesus? Right or wrong, they were tortured and butchered in the name of Jesus. And it's not their fault. They didn't go to the camps by their own free will. And then G-d comes and throws them IN HELL? If that is true, then such G-d is not worthy of our love. That is definetly not the loving Father of Israel.

Dave

Dave, that is why I ask the question...I want to see what other people think about you, to see if people think you are saved if you have faith in God...I believe there are misconceptions about how we all feel and am hoping that those misconceptions are all straightened out here...Thanks for being so honest about how you feel....

Talmidah · Nov 11, 2005

Would these statements be at least somewhat representative of the beliefs of the people in this forum regarding salvation of the Jews?

That salvation is only available to those who place their faith in Yeshua's atonement (Deut. 18:18-19, Psalms 2:10-12, John 3:16, Acts 4:10-12, Gal. 3:22, Eph. 2:4-6, Heb. 10:10)

As stated by Dr. David Stern, Jewish New Testament Commentary, p. 284, listed below are five aspects in the salvation process given in the B'rit Hadasha (Renewed Covenant): (Only copied first two)

Believing that Yeshua is Messiah and trusting Him (Acts 16:31, Rom. 10:9)

Acknowledging him publicly (Romans 10:9, Luke 12)

Tree of Life Messianic Congregation

We believe that Messiah Yeshua died as a substitutionary sacrifice for man's sin and that all who believe in Him are declared righteous on the basis of His shed blood.

We believe that anyone who, by faith, trusts in Messiah Yeshua as Savior and Redeemer is immediately forgiven of all sin and becomes a child of God. Further, there is no way of salvation apart from faith in Messiah Yeshua for any person, Jewish or Gentile (Genesis 15:6; Habakkuk 2:4; John 1:12-13; John 14:6; Acts 4:12;Romans 3:28; Ephesians 1:7; I Timothy 2:5; Titus 3:5). Yeshuat Yisrael

1. We must believe in and accept the death, burial and resurrection of the Messiah as the only path to eternal life. Daniel 9:24-26; Isaiah 52:12-55:5; Psalm 22. Yeshua HaNateev

That the only provision G-d made for reconciling man to Himself was through the atoning work of the Messiah, who died as the sacrifice for our disobedience and rose again, manifesting the victory over sin and death (Lev. 17:11, Isa. 53:1-12, II Cor. 5:19).

That all who repent from sin and accept G-d's message of salvation in the Messiah are born of the Ruach haKodesh (the Holy Spirit of G-d). Faith in the Messiah as the Mediator of the New Covenant makes us true children of G-d (Jer. 31:31-34, Ezek. 36:24-27, Jn. 1:11-13).

We are called to be a light for Yeshua first to the Jewish community (Matt. 5:14; Rom. 1:16; Rom. 9:3,4; Rom. 10:1; Matt. 10:6; Rom. 1:10, 1 Cor. 8:20).

We are compelled to bear the light of Yeshua the Messiah to the Jewish people. Baruch HaShem

The ONLY provision

made for reconciling man to Himself is through teshuvah (repentance - turning from sin and to

's instructions) and blood atonement, for "Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins." Yeshua is "the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world." The blood that poured out from His body while He hung on the execution stake is the offering for sin in fulfillment of Tehillim (Psalms) 22 and Yeshayahu 53.

All who make teshuvah, accept

's redemption (the purchase price) through Mashiach Yeshua and begin to follow His mitzvot (commandments) are born from above. Redemption is obtained by emunah (trusting) in Yeshua's atoning work as a free gift from

through His chesed (grace). Kehilat Dvar HaShem

We believe that those who receive Yeshua as their personal savior will spend eternity with Him, whether in Heaven, or during His millennial reign on Planet Earth.
Bnai Ephriam Ministries fully affirms that those who do not repent of their sins and receive Yeshua will spend a conscious eternity in Hell (Deuteronomy 32:22; Job 11:8; 24:19; Psalms 116:3; Isaiah 14:9; Jonah 2:2; Luke 12:5, 16:19-31) and ultimately the Lake of Fire (Revelation 19:20; 20:10; 15). Bnei Ephraim

Regeneration by the Spirit of G-d indwelling us through our trust in the person and work of Yeshua, is absolutely essential. Simchat Torah

We believe all men are sinners by nature and in need of salvation, which can only be accomplished by confession in the Messiah, by Gods grace and through His atoning blood, death and resurrection.(Romans 3:23-25; Romans 10:9-10; Ephesians 2:8-9; I Peter 1:1819). Beth Adonai

Henaynei · Nov 11, 2005

Talmidah said:
Sorry jgonz...I'm not trying to 'nick-picky'. I sincerely want to understand. I have known and studied with many messianics (back when I was one). The standard belief is that everyone, including the Jews, need to believe in and accept Yeshua in order to obtain salvation. I know there are many individuals who see things a little differently, and you guys here may be of them. So, at the risk of nick-pickiness...can I just make sure that I understand your (and others' here) view? A Jew who believes in Hashem can believe that Yeshua probably didn't exist and, if he did, was definitely not Hashem, not divine, and not the messiah, and they don't have to worry their 'salvation', and messianics will not be worried about reaching out to them or showing them the truth of Yeshua (as opposed to the christian view of Jesus)?

(Please know...I'm not trying to trap anyone, or get into any debate. I'm just trying to get a deeper understanding of your views here)

I believe that observant Jewish people call upon His Name at least 3 times a day (much more and more consistantly than most Christians who believe they are saved) when they pray the Shakrit, Minkha and Maariv - When they call upon the Ben HaMevorakh or the Right Hand of G-d, etc. for deliverance and salvation.

As we Messianics are more aware than the rest of the Community of Faith, "calling upon His Name" is not contingent upon uttering some specific phonetic combination. Just as His ways are higher than ours, so "calling on Him" entails something much deeper than exacting phonetization - and I believe that Jews with true kavannah have been calling on Him for millenia and are thus saved.

Are the Jews saved...

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