Are the Gloves Coming Off??

[Kaon]

I’ve been reading tripe like this online for twenty years now. There’s always some holier than thou art type essentially arguing that Christians shouldn’t vote because politicians are all rascals.

It’s a variation on “separate your religion from your vote”. And I should say a very unconvincing variation.

Ok.

 

[Kaon]

Illuminati confirmed?

Aren't you catholic?

What did Christ say about the god of this world? What offered all of the kingdoms of the world to the Christ?

When you do this ridiculous scoffing, you waste intellectual time and progress.

 

[Kaon]

Exodus 20:13 is a commandment. And last I checked humans even at the earliest stages of development are either male or female.

Then declare yourself. Abortion is the pre-meditated termination of a human being. That violates God's Law.

Since you are quoting from the OT, I assume you follow ALL law, not just a few (that's good, because that is my stance as well.)

With that said, I never said I condone abortion. I said that that is not my problem because 1) I am not a woman, and 2) if it doesn't interfere with the commandments of God it isn't my problem.


Of course, murder is against the Law (my context was voting for laws on abortion,) but abortion just like every sin is between the person and their Creator. Perhaps instead of concluding with this, I should have prefaced 2) by saying.

If someone comes to me and asks what my opinion is on abortion as it related to God and/or the law, then I will declare myself.
​

I do not condone abortion. But, this isn't about my stance on abortion; it is about the hypocrisy of evangelical support for incorrigible persons.

 

[redleghunter]

As far as the illusion of the West giving charities... I will just say I vehemently disagree with that narrative.

What exact ministries is your church involved in?

It's neither an illusion nor a narrative, but factual:

Evangelicals Give More to Charity, Study Finds

Charitable giving is highest among the most religious

The site could not contain every example of Christian charity so here are a few:

Christian Pregnancy Services and After Care:

Just a few examples here:

https://cmda.org/resources/publication/crisis-pregnancy-centers
Pregnancy Centers in PA
Listing Of Crisis Pregnancy Centers In Illinois
Christian Life Resources
Special Delivery | Overlake Christian Church
Top 10 Non Profit Organizations that help Mothers
Creating a Cradle Care Ministry for Expectant & New Parents

These are a few examples of Christian ministries which span all 50 states.

Sanctuary of Hope:

https://www.jhm.org/SOHCares
The above is a grand scale example of after and future care. Others include Catholic charities and Samaritans Purse.

Becoming Adoptive Parents - FAQs
Counseling
Help Protect Vulnerable Women


Here's just one example of a conservative Evangelical charitable organization's ministry:


Help Families Fleeing the Fighting in Mosul

Emergency Field Hospital Sent as Christmas Gift to Iraq

Loving Care for an Orphan | Samaritan’s Purse Gift Catalog

A Brighter Future for Ebola Widows

Women’s Programs

Crisis & Disaster Response

Feeding Programs

Health & Medical Ministries

Water, Sanitation & Hygiene

Children’s Heart Project

Putting a Stop to Human Trafficking

Deadly Earthquake in Nepal

U.S. Disaster Relief

 

[redleghunter]

I do not condone abortion. But, this isn't about my stance on abortion; it is about the hypocrisy of evangelical support for incorrigible persons.

Saying you are against abortion but do nothing to help prevent it is in fact the definition of hypocrisy.

There were hundreds of thousands of Germans who did not condone the murder of Jews during WWII. Some risked their lives to hide Jewish families. Some plugged their ears as the trains rolled passed their hamlets bound for concentration camps.

 

[redleghunter]

Since you are quoting from the OT, I assume you follow ALL law, not just a few (that's good, because that is my stance as well.)

Jesus and the apostles confirmed murder was a commandment.

Abortion is murder so declare yourself.

 

[Kaon]

It can be, but if you are voting for a candidate who is Pro-Life and respects the free exercise of religion, then no it is neither hypocritical nor contradictory. Hypocritical would be if one did not support the candidate who supports the right to life for all humans at every stage of human life. Contradictory would be voting for the candidates which advocated on demand abortion at any stage of pregnancy.

So because someone who is otherwise a deselect in another aspect of life agrees with some of your ideals, that is sufficient to give your consent of vote to let the person run the country?

Hypocritical in the context of evangelicals supporting an incorrigible man would be to cherry pick good things about the incorrigible person for the purposes championship.

This is incongruent. One is the Son of God and King of all Creation, the other is a nation's president under the US Constitution.

I've noticed we are only speaking of Trump now, what happened to the other candidate?

The comparison is comparative, not an equivalence, for effect. I am speaking about supporting an incorrigible man; Christ's example is simply an extreme.

We don't expect perfection from a person necessarily (despite our call for it in campaigning - a hypocrisy in itself,) but the person shouldn't be incorrigible. And we should have more faith in ourselves, and humanity than to support an incorrigible man just because "stuff is getting real." It has been "real."

You conflate two separate things. You call it hypocritical to vote for a man based on his moral character and somehow combine that with a political platform. The two are not the same. One is a personal character and the other is a defined political party platform. Were you alive in the 90s when Bill Clinton was president?

A person's personal character is categorically deterministic of his or her political character as it pertains to the people. It is in the very name "politics."

I was alive when Bill Clinton was president, and I didn't vote for him either. I didn't lose any psychological, political, intellectual or partisan investment when he went through his scandal. Those things are sinusoidal events and happen on all party sides.

Do you support a man who marries his mistresses? What do you think such a man would do to the country if he treats his wives with dishonor - according to Christianity?

Why are you attacking Evangelicals who are the most giving, proportionally, than any other Christian (or secular) group worldwide? What exactly are you demonizing Evangelicals for? Taking a stand on religious freedom? Taking a stand to protect human life? Wanting the airways and sea lanes open so they can spread the gospel and bring material aid to those in need? Which one of these desires of Evangelicals in voting for president should they be ashamed of?

Because liberal Christians are already somewhat self-hating and aware of their major short-comings. But evangelical and fundamentalist Christians are the most vocal supporters of Trump (by silence or speaking), and often are the first to condemn people, and then scream victim when their own hypocrisy is called out.

Your unfounded fulminations are noted, but unsubstantiated.

You should instead be asking what the Barna Election 2016 survey calls "Notional Christians" the questions you ask. Evangelicals voted roughly the same (survey says lower) for Trump as they did for Bush, McCain and Romney.

The real story and who you should be taking your self-righteous zeal out on are Notional Christians:

While some media analysts have claimed that the evangelical vote for Trump was unusually large, the survey data do not support that claim. The 79 percent that evangelicals awarded to the GOP nominee was actually the lowest level of evangelical support for a Republican candidate since Bob Dole lost to Bill Clinton in 1996, garnering 74 percent of their support. The 79 percent figure earned by Trump in this election was slightly lower than the 81 percent given to Mitt Romney in 2012. Which was previously the lowest level of evangelical support for a Republican candidate since Dole.​

[...]

Last Two Months Turned It Around
Upon comparing the data from a national poll by Barna Group in early September with the election survey conducted in November, the differences show what a difference two months can make in the minds of voters.

There was minor movement toward Donald Trump during those two months among both evangelicals (an eight-point gain in his lead over Clinton) and non-evangelical born again Christians (a three-point increase in his lead).

Surprisingly, Trump’s biggest jump in support during the home stretch came from notional Christians. While that segment preferred Clinton by 12 points in September, they wound up siding with Trump by a two-point differential. That represents a 14-point gain in the final two months among the numerically-largest pool of religious voters.

Clinton finished strongly, in terms of total votes received, partially because of a huge rise in support among people aligned with non-Christian faiths. Her margin of preference increased among that group from seven points in September to a whopping 51 points on Election Day – a 44-point climb in eight weeks! Unfortunately for her campaign, the other-faith segment was the smallest of the five primary faith segments, rendering that growth in support significant but not enough to seal the deal.

Another shocking twist during the last two months was the shift of allegiance to Trump among atheists and agnostics. Trump gained 10 percentage points on Clinton among this group.​

In a nutshell? The numbers that mattered in the Trump victory came from historically Democrat leaning Notional Christians and atheists.

What's a Notional Christian?

Notional Christians are people who consider themselves to be Christian but they have not made “a personal commitment to Jesus Christ that is still important in their life today” or believe that when they die they will go to Heaven because they have confessed their sins and accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior.​

I don't think I need to put up the survey's definition of atheist. All other group definitions are at the survey link:

https://www.barna.com/research/notional-christians-big-election-story-2016/

Maybe I will start a thread which asks "Why did Lukewarm Christians and Atheists abandon Hillary?"

Edit: @thecolorsblend pinged since I addressed some of his content as well.

Seriously? If you think this is a waste of your time then let me know. We don't have to continue. You keep deflecting and creating strawmen when my context was simple: why do evangelical Christians continue to apologize for an incorrigible man.

 

[Kaon]

Saying you are against abortion but do nothing to help prevent it is in fact the definition of hypocrisy.

There were hundreds of thousands of Germans who did not condone the murder of Jews during WWII. Some risked their lives to hide Jewish families. Some plugged their ears as the trains rolled passed their hamlets bound for concentration camps.

How do you know I do nothing to prevent it? Because I said someone's choice to abort a child is not my problem - it is between their maker and the person?

I see where you are. I hope you find what you are looking for.

 

[thecolorsblend]

Aren't you catholic?

Yup.

When you do this ridiculous scoffing, you waste intellectual time and progress.

You're right. I should've just ignored you the way I do other conspiracy theorists. Lesson learned.

 

[Kaon]

Jesus and the apostles confirmed murder was a commandment.

Abortion is murder so declare yourself.

I did declared myself several times - to deaf ears. And, I will declare something else: Christ is also the Word of God - the same Word of God that instructed Moses of the Law, and gave it to him. Or, do you not believe? Therefore, there is no "Old Law" and "New Law," but only the Word of God - which will NEVER go away, and NEVER void. Ever.

This is my last post to you.

 

[Kaon]

Yup.

You're right. I should've just ignored you the way I do other conspiracy theorists. Lesson learned.

Especially if you think the heroes of your own canon are conspiracy theorist:

But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 2 Corinthians 4:3-4

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Ephesians 6:12

Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. John 12:31




​

 

[thecolorsblend]

Especially if you think the heroes of your own canon are conspiracy theorist:

But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 2 Corinthians 4:3-4

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Ephesians 6:12

Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. John 12:31

Nice! Slyly suggest that rejecting silly conspiracy theories somehow makes me apostate. Bonus points because of the Catholic connection I have.

Try again. I am open to alternative views of things. I daresay more open than a lot of other rational people. But this secret Illuminati conspiracy to destroy my religion is challenging. To the degree that there is some eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevil conspiracy by human agents, I believe it targets people who are predominantly Christian but their religion isn't the primary motive. But this isn't the thread for that subject.

Suffice it to say, Christianity as an organized religion is probably relatively safe from the conspirators (for now).

 

[Kaon]

Nice! Slyly suggest that rejecting silly conspiracy theories somehow makes me apostate. Bonus points because of the Catholic connection I have.

Try again. I am open to alternative views of things. I daresay more open than a lot of other rational people. But this secret Illuminati conspiracy to destroy my religion is challenging. To the degree that there is some eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevil conspiracy by human agents, I believe it targets people who are predominantly Christian but their religion isn't the primary motive. But this isn't the thread for that subject.

Suffice it to say, Christianity as an organized religion is probably relatively safe from the conspirators (for now).

I wasn't suggesting you were an apostate at all; I was suggesting you were ignorant of some of the things your own canon says about who/what rules this entire planet. This goes back to the hypocrisy in Christianity in general.

If Christ and His disciples knew that the nations rise and fall, and that there was something else ruling the world like a chess game that has to do with the spiritual war we were told about, then it should follow that what is going on right now is the more of the same stuff. The focus isn't about politics, war, starvation or plagues at all; these are physical projections of spiritual warfare. So, why are Christians casting their pearls before swine - especially when there are nothing but swine. Voting goes both ways; your vote is a piece of responsibility in the trajectory.

 

[redleghunter]

Seriously? If you think this is a waste of your time then let me know. We don't have to continue. You keep deflecting and creating strawmen when my context was simple: why do evangelical Christians continue to apologize for an incorrigible man.

Your overarching point is Christians should not vote at all.

Please confirm is this is true and please respond to the survey which refutes your position Evangelicals are the problem.

 

[redleghunter]

We don't expect perfection from a person necessarily (despite our call for it in campaigning - a hypocrisy in itself,) but the person shouldn't be incorrigible. And we should have more faith in ourselves, and humanity than to support an incorrigible man just because "stuff is getting real." It has been "real."

Yet no excoriating language from you for those voting for immoral liars who advocate killing healthy unborn human beings through the third trimester.

 

[redleghunter]

I did declared myself several times - to deaf ears. And, I will declare something else: Christ is also the Word of God - the same Word of God that instructed Moses of the Law, and gave it to him. Or, do you not believe? Therefore, there is no "Old Law" and "New Law," but only the Word of God - which will NEVER go away, and NEVER void. Ever.

This is my last post to you.

I fully aware of the Law of Christ.

 

[redleghunter]

Nice! Slyly suggest that rejecting silly conspiracy theories somehow makes me apostate. Bonus points because of the Catholic connection I have.

Try again. I am open to alternative views of things. I daresay more open than a lot of other rational people. But this secret Illuminati conspiracy to destroy my religion is challenging. To the degree that there is some eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevil conspiracy by human agents, I believe it targets people who are predominantly Christian but their religion isn't the primary motive. But this isn't the thread for that subject.

Suffice it to say, Christianity as an organized religion is probably relatively safe from the conspirators (for now).

I wonder if Christians had a choice between Nero and some other guy who promised not to burn them alive and feed them to animals if they would have elected not to vote or actually vote for Nero.

I know extreme example but certainly fits some of the choices presented by the OP.

 

[redleghunter]

White American Evangelicals are being called out for their support of President Trump:

Reclaiming Jesus from the Trump Evangelicals

Sorry did not respond directly to you and OP topic. Based on the evidence below perhaps rename the OP "Why did Lukewarm Christians and Atheists Abandon Hillary."


You should instead be asking what the Barna Election 2016 survey calls "Notional Christians" the questions you ask. Evangelicals voted roughly the same (survey says lower) for Trump as they did for Bush, McCain and Romney.

While some media analysts have claimed that the evangelical vote for Trump was unusually large, the survey data do not support that claim. The 79 percent that evangelicals awarded to the GOP nominee was actually the lowest level of evangelical support for a Republican candidate since Bob Dole lost to Bill Clinton in 1996, garnering 74 percent of their support. The 79 percent figure earned by Trump in this election was slightly lower than the 81 percent given to Mitt Romney in 2012. Which was previously the lowest level of evangelical support for a Republican candidate since Dole.

[...]
Last Two Months Turned It Around
Upon comparing the data from a national poll by Barna Group in early September with the election survey conducted in November, the differences show what a difference two months can make in the minds of voters.

There was minor movement toward Donald Trump during those two months among both evangelicals (an eight-point gain in his lead over Clinton) and non-evangelical born again Christians (a three-point increase in his lead).

Surprisingly, Trump’s biggest jump in support during the home stretch came from notional Christians. While that segment preferred Clinton by 12 points in September, they wound up siding with Trump by a two-point differential. That represents a 14-point gain in the final two months among the numerically-largest pool of religious voters.

Clinton finished strongly, in terms of total votes received, partially because of a huge rise in support among people aligned with non-Christian faiths. Her margin of preference increased among that group from seven points in September to a whopping 51 points on Election Day – a 44-point climb in eight weeks! Unfortunately for her campaign, the other-faith segment was the smallest of the five primary faith segments, rendering that growth in support significant but not enough to seal the deal.

Another shocking twist during the last two months was the shift of allegiance to Trump among atheists and agnostics. Trump gained 10 percentage points on Clinton among this group.​

In a nutshell? The numbers that mattered in the Trump victory came from historically Democrat leaning Notional Christians and atheists.

What's a Notional Christian?

Notional Christians are people who considerthemselves to be Christian but they have not made “a personal commitment to Jesus Christ that is still important in their life today” or believe that when they die they will go to Heaven because they haveconfessed their sins and accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior.

I don't think I need to put up the survey's definition ofatheist. All other group definitions are at the survey link:

https://www.barna.com/research/notional-christians-big-election-story-2016/

 

[zephcom]

Frankly, it has been like this since American Christians had a right to vote (which was much later for women and Black Christians). Previous Presidential candidates were slave owners, participated in violent bloody military campaigns, were divorced previously and remarried, gave a passing mention of God to appease the masses, and even made sure the press covered them going to church. Pick one President who did not fit the above short list and we can add womanizing, adultery, lying, swindling (LBJ was an accomplished manipulator and 'spoils system' politician) etc. (fill in the blank).

By your narrow moral resume Christians should not vote for sinners. Then that means we should not vote. Ok I get it you would like to vote for the most "Christlike" candidate. When there are none, and frankly since we are all sinners you will find none, Christians should not vote. That is exactly what a lot of people would like to see. That is why some feel shaming will work. Christians will not vote or vote for a horse with no chance of finishing the race.

Then we should apply such to how we spend our money and where we shop. We would end up starving unless we make our own goods and raise our own food. Thus, you would be advocating we become the Amish who make their own things and don't vote.

There are good things to say about the Amish.....

 

[redleghunter]

There are good things to say about the Amish.....

Yes the barns are quite nice.