James 4:3 says that doing things for your own pleasure is wrong. I'm a little confused here. Can someone please clarify this for me? Because every christian I've ever met has "things of this world" they like to do, including me.
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Are pleasures like hobbies wrong?
- Thread starter BenTher
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ReesePiece23
The Peanut Buttery Member.
I think it means if you're going to do a good deed for someone, just do the good deed with no ulterior motive or to expect some 'warm glowing' feeling. The idea is that we do it because we're all one within the human race and part of the body of Christ.
It's like when someone gives to charity for superficial reasons. You've got to do it if you feel it's in the line of duty. And not to feel good.
At least that's my interpretation of the verse. I wouldn't quote me on it.
It's like when someone gives to charity for superficial reasons. You've got to do it if you feel it's in the line of duty. And not to feel good.
At least that's my interpretation of the verse. I wouldn't quote me on it.
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ChristianMatchmaking
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What a great question. It also ties into important questions about what is and is not inherently and truly sinful in general.
All sorts of time consuming and often expensive personal interests: sports, concerts (oh no, surely you don't mean baseball or football too, do you?), events, entertainment, etc. Lions and tigers and bears - surely that must all be sinful, yes?
The answer appears to be - if it is not explicitly stated to be sin in the Bible, then it is not intrinsically or inherently evil or sinful.
Here's the part that many people seem to be mistaken about too: the same goes for things which people claim to be sin, but which are not stated as such in the Bible. Things like gambling (yes, that's right, gambling), drinking not to excess or dissipation, etc.
Each person and situation is unique. So while these things may not be inherently sinful, they can be sinful in context for one and not another.
Can you afford to be gambling right now? If not, there appears to be a spiritual problem. Are you doing it out of idolatry or the love of money? Problem. However, is it merely something you can well afford and which is not a problem part of your life? $100 or $1000 may be too much to risk for one person and extremely foolish, but may be almost nothing to a more wealthy person who is supporting a family and giving lots of money still. Okay... Admittedly something like that is not exactly the most noble thing we can be doing with our time, but the same goes for all the other entertainments people hold so dear and often spend far more time and far more money on than those who engage in something like gambling, for instance. There may be no less idolatry and foolishness and may often be far more in things like sports, music, outings, travel, home remodeling, decorating or expansion, etc.
As for James 4:3, it seems to me that looking at the verse rightly, it's about the reasons why we ask for the money, related to what we are living for and loving in our hearts. Are we worshipping as an idol or living for these various pleasures in life? Then it seems we are asking "wickedly," that we may spend it on our pleasures, as I have seen it translated literally according to NAS. Do we have a reasonable and sensible attitude about life's pleasures if we are fortunate to have access to any of them, but is our main focus for asking for the money a good and reasonable one not focused on idolatry of things or pleasures, and can we see that in ourselves by God's grace, and is it clear that He can see what is in our heart? This seems to be the key.
All sorts of time consuming and often expensive personal interests: sports, concerts (oh no, surely you don't mean baseball or football too, do you?), events, entertainment, etc. Lions and tigers and bears - surely that must all be sinful, yes?
The answer appears to be - if it is not explicitly stated to be sin in the Bible, then it is not intrinsically or inherently evil or sinful.
Here's the part that many people seem to be mistaken about too: the same goes for things which people claim to be sin, but which are not stated as such in the Bible. Things like gambling (yes, that's right, gambling), drinking not to excess or dissipation, etc.
Each person and situation is unique. So while these things may not be inherently sinful, they can be sinful in context for one and not another.
Can you afford to be gambling right now? If not, there appears to be a spiritual problem. Are you doing it out of idolatry or the love of money? Problem. However, is it merely something you can well afford and which is not a problem part of your life? $100 or $1000 may be too much to risk for one person and extremely foolish, but may be almost nothing to a more wealthy person who is supporting a family and giving lots of money still. Okay... Admittedly something like that is not exactly the most noble thing we can be doing with our time, but the same goes for all the other entertainments people hold so dear and often spend far more time and far more money on than those who engage in something like gambling, for instance. There may be no less idolatry and foolishness and may often be far more in things like sports, music, outings, travel, home remodeling, decorating or expansion, etc.
As for James 4:3, it seems to me that looking at the verse rightly, it's about the reasons why we ask for the money, related to what we are living for and loving in our hearts. Are we worshipping as an idol or living for these various pleasures in life? Then it seems we are asking "wickedly," that we may spend it on our pleasures, as I have seen it translated literally according to NAS. Do we have a reasonable and sensible attitude about life's pleasures if we are fortunate to have access to any of them, but is our main focus for asking for the money a good and reasonable one not focused on idolatry of things or pleasures, and can we see that in ourselves by God's grace, and is it clear that He can see what is in our heart? This seems to be the key.
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There's nothing whatsoever wrong with hobbies. God made all creation for us. The following verse sets a good tone for interpreting the verse you ask about.
Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. (1 Timothy 6:17, 1984 NIV)
Paul is calling out a sinful heart condition: hoping in wealth for their enjoyment (uncertain: in other words, foolish) instead of God. Arrogance: choosing to trust themselves instead of God.
The passage you ask about:
What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don’t they come from your desires that battle within you? You want something but don’t get it. You kill and covet, but you cannot have what you want. You quarrel and fight. You do not have, because you do not ask God. When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures. (James 4:1-3, 1984 NIV)
Again it is people who are putting their hope in something other than God. They have desires and want things, but their hearts are dark (kill and covet, quarrel and fight) They are so self-focused that they don't ask God for what they want. And those that do, do not receive, because of their dark hearts (wrong motives), which includes wanting to spend money on me, me, me!
Both passages are speaking against not being humble before God with one's desires. Rather, seek God for what you want (regardless of what it might cost, by the way) and wait on his provision. Seeking wealth to get what you want has uncertain results and may have idolatry at the root.
Some other passages that use examples to show issues like this can be bad heart/motive issues: Luke 12:17-21, James 4:13-16.
Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. (1 Timothy 6:17, 1984 NIV)
Paul is calling out a sinful heart condition: hoping in wealth for their enjoyment (uncertain: in other words, foolish) instead of God. Arrogance: choosing to trust themselves instead of God.
The passage you ask about:
What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don’t they come from your desires that battle within you? You want something but don’t get it. You kill and covet, but you cannot have what you want. You quarrel and fight. You do not have, because you do not ask God. When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures. (James 4:1-3, 1984 NIV)
Again it is people who are putting their hope in something other than God. They have desires and want things, but their hearts are dark (kill and covet, quarrel and fight) They are so self-focused that they don't ask God for what they want. And those that do, do not receive, because of their dark hearts (wrong motives), which includes wanting to spend money on me, me, me!
Both passages are speaking against not being humble before God with one's desires. Rather, seek God for what you want (regardless of what it might cost, by the way) and wait on his provision. Seeking wealth to get what you want has uncertain results and may have idolatry at the root.
Some other passages that use examples to show issues like this can be bad heart/motive issues: Luke 12:17-21, James 4:13-16.
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dayhiker
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I wanted to expand the context:
4 What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don’t they come from your desires that battle within you? 2 You desire but do not have, so you kill. You covet but you cannot get what you want, so you quarrel and fight. You do not have because you do not ask God. 3 When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.
I think the word pleasure leads us to the wrong place. Where do the fights and quarrels come from? We covet and this is refering back to the 10 commandments. Where we are told to not covet our neighbors things, wife etc. These people are desiring what other people have so much that they are fighting and quarreling with them. Fights destroy things. When people riot they destroy their own neighborhood most of the time. They aren't going to God and asking for good thing that will allow them to bless the people around them, they are coveting what others have, their lusts, KJV, are selfish rather than giving and loving.
When we ask aright, we ask in love and love usually works in a mutual way that results in more people getting what they want, more people being blessed and pleasure. I find if my heart is right, there is no pleasure in taking something because I know the people around me will be hurt.
If we get together with other hobbyist, say we like to quilt, if we help each other, educate each other, share the quilt scrapes we have the pleasure of fellowship, making a pretty quilt for people to admire and then it brings warmth to someone on a cold winters day is a pleasure that heals and communicates love.
4 What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don’t they come from your desires that battle within you? 2 You desire but do not have, so you kill. You covet but you cannot get what you want, so you quarrel and fight. You do not have because you do not ask God. 3 When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.
I think the word pleasure leads us to the wrong place. Where do the fights and quarrels come from? We covet and this is refering back to the 10 commandments. Where we are told to not covet our neighbors things, wife etc. These people are desiring what other people have so much that they are fighting and quarreling with them. Fights destroy things. When people riot they destroy their own neighborhood most of the time. They aren't going to God and asking for good thing that will allow them to bless the people around them, they are coveting what others have, their lusts, KJV, are selfish rather than giving and loving.
When we ask aright, we ask in love and love usually works in a mutual way that results in more people getting what they want, more people being blessed and pleasure. I find if my heart is right, there is no pleasure in taking something because I know the people around me will be hurt.
If we get together with other hobbyist, say we like to quilt, if we help each other, educate each other, share the quilt scrapes we have the pleasure of fellowship, making a pretty quilt for people to admire and then it brings warmth to someone on a cold winters day is a pleasure that heals and communicates love.
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Radrook
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There are religious organizations which will make you feel guilty for any time you spend away from preaching the Gospel and from studying the Bible. Abiding by those expectations can lead to a life completely devoid of hobbies. In short, it can lead to a monastic life.
Such a life devoid of hobbies can indeed be pleasurable and bring deep peace. However, it takes a constant focus that most Christians cannot sustain. It can also involve considerable suffering via perceived deprivation for a person who is not temperamentally suited for it.
In short, hobbies can be perceived as timewasting and sinful if they go contrary to Bible principles. For example, if they physically harm other people via violent contact such as in boxing. Any biblical principle that is ignored or broken can make the hobby a sinful one.
Such a life devoid of hobbies can indeed be pleasurable and bring deep peace. However, it takes a constant focus that most Christians cannot sustain. It can also involve considerable suffering via perceived deprivation for a person who is not temperamentally suited for it.
In short, hobbies can be perceived as timewasting and sinful if they go contrary to Bible principles. For example, if they physically harm other people via violent contact such as in boxing. Any biblical principle that is ignored or broken can make the hobby a sinful one.
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That's not what James 4:3 says.
But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. James 1
Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts. James 4
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Rubiks
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A certain level of recreation is perfectly healthy. God created the Sabbath and made it good.
The bible is 100% against asceticism/monasticism. Paul addresses an early form of Gnosticism in 1st Timothy 4 (KJV)
"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving"
Just make sure to put God first and try not to have an emotional attachment to the things of this life.
The bible is 100% against asceticism/monasticism. Paul addresses an early form of Gnosticism in 1st Timothy 4 (KJV)
"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving"
Just make sure to put God first and try not to have an emotional attachment to the things of this life.
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God considered rest so important that he made a day for it—and violating it was considered a violation of a command of God punishable by death.
Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men, since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving. (Colossians 3:23-24, 1984 NIV)
Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men, since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving. (Colossians 3:23-24, 1984 NIV)
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toLiJC
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there should be some differentiation of the things, moreover, right differentiation, for example, to drink and eat what the true God made for us to use it for food, and, to be careful not to cause harm/suffering to our neighbor(townsman/cohabitant) - we can do both things, and yet, one thing is consumption, another thing is to be righteous, though, as we said above, we can do both of them i.e. they are not incompatible, but if we really want to do His Will as Jesus and His true disciples had done It since They were effectually spiritual servants of God two millennia ago, then we will have rather to work for overall salvation in Him than to consume our lives just as users, however, the consumption is not unclean in/of itself, because God made the man as an user, which is actually the meaning of the biblical word "man" i.e. the user of life, and He(the system Administrator of life) doesn't want to force us to be His spiritual servants, because He wants us to be free, which is why He doesn't doom us to suffer only because we are not spiritual servants, but persons that can be condemned to suffer are those who cause harm/suffering to their neighbor(townsman/cohabitant), either (somehow) spiritually or physically, anyway, one thing is certain, the more the spiritual servants work for true overall salvation in terms of spending time and making efforts, the better for them and others, and the more they spend time for entertainment, the less they will be able to work for overall salvation in Him, but on the other hand it may not be given to every person to do more than it is expected of them, however, we can at least try to be as righteous as possible beginning with non-causation of harm/suffering to the neighbors(townsmen/cohabitants)
Blessings
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Dear Ben Ther. Our Heavenly Father loves us, and to have hobbies is not wrong, IF they are acted with love and compassion. God is Love, and God wants loving and happy sons and daughters. The Bible tells us to REPENT, to give up all unloving and uncaring behaviour. Love is very catching, and gradually we will change into men and women who will love and care, be kind and helpful, and always friendly.
In Matthew 7: 7-10: we are told: " Ask and you shall receive, we always ask for love and joy, then thank God and share all love and joy with our neighbour. (neighbour is all we know and all we meet, friend and not friend) We keep asking and receiving, then thank God and share all love and joy with our neighbour. God will see our loving efforts, and God will Bless us. Why not give it chance, life can be very joyful. I say this with love, Ben. We might stumble and forget at times, but then ask God to forgive us, and carry on loving and caring.
Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.
In Matthew 7: 7-10: we are told: " Ask and you shall receive, we always ask for love and joy, then thank God and share all love and joy with our neighbour. (neighbour is all we know and all we meet, friend and not friend) We keep asking and receiving, then thank God and share all love and joy with our neighbour. God will see our loving efforts, and God will Bless us. Why not give it chance, life can be very joyful. I say this with love, Ben. We might stumble and forget at times, but then ask God to forgive us, and carry on loving and caring.
Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.
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Radrook
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Taking devotion to an extreme can have serious consequences on your life.
There is a scripture that tells us not to become righteous over too much.
In short, to be careful in becoming over-meticulously righteous to the extent that you burry yourself alive.
It happened to me when I initially deleted radio, TV, guitar playing, chess, writing, reading newspapers, watching movies, and all other possible nonreligious things from my life in an effort to be as holy as possible and to please God many years ago. Not saying that it was totally wrong. However, a little more flexible approach would have been better in hindsight.
There is a scripture that tells us not to become righteous over too much.
In short, to be careful in becoming over-meticulously righteous to the extent that you burry yourself alive.
It happened to me when I initially deleted radio, TV, guitar playing, chess, writing, reading newspapers, watching movies, and all other possible nonreligious things from my life in an effort to be as holy as possible and to please God many years ago. Not saying that it was totally wrong. However, a little more flexible approach would have been better in hindsight.
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It depends on the hobby. How much time does it take? Does it bring you closer to God? Does it bring you closer to other people? Does it benefit other people? Does it help you develop a useful skill?
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DontMindMe211
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I don't think so at all, look at David, he was a great musician, I bet he enjoyed doing it and would consider it a hobby.
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