JW are people being predestined to hell really fair?

[Daniel Marsh]

Since this seems to be what JWs are thinking in the background on Hell. I decided to ask it here.

are people being predestined to hell really fair?

for those unaware, Russell was raised in a church that basically taught that.

 

[HTacianas]

Since this seems to be what JWs are thinking in the background on Hell. I decided to ask it here.

are people being predestined to hell really fair?

for those unaware, Russell was raised in a church that basically taught that.

I didn't think that the JWs believed in hell.

But I don't care much for Charles Russell.

 

[tampasteve]

Whether Charles Russell believed this or not is really not relevant the JW's today. The Watchtower does not teach what you are saying. This is a link to their web page on the subject, it is pretty short. In brief, Hell as taught by Christians is not correct, it is more like annihilationism.
https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/what-is-hell/

 

[Albion]

Since this seems to be what JWs are thinking in the background on Hell. I decided to ask it here.

are people being predestined to hell really fair?

for those unaware, Russell was raised in a church that basically taught that.

What God chooses to do cannot be considered unfair. Especially not when it deals with what he himself created.

 

[Albion]

I didn't think that the JWs believed in hell.

In brief, Hell as taught by Christians is not correct, it is more like annihilationism.

I believe you both are correct about this. Russell was put off by the idea that the great majority of people would go to hell. He thought that annihilation was what would happen instead and that this was more Godly and merciful than torturing people forever (as most Christian churches of the time taught).

I see that the OP says that hell was taught in the church that Russell was raised in, not the one he founded, so that's probably correct; but he rebelled against that belief.

 

[tampasteve]

I believe you both are correct about this. Russell was put off by the idea that the great majority of people would go to hell. He thought that annihilation was what would happen instead and that this was more Godly and merciful than torturing people forever (as most Christian churches of the time taught).

Thanks! To clarify, I should have said "Hell as taught by most Christians..." as some Christians do teach annihilationism (SDA, some Anglican,etc. ).

 

[Albion]

Anglican? Whooee. I guess I haven't met any of those folks. Annihilationism is clearly against the church's teachings.

 

[Halbhh]

Whether Charles Russell believed this or not is really not relevant the JW's today. The Watchtower does not teach what you are saying. This is a link to their web page on the subject, it is pretty short. In brief, Hell as taught by Christians is not correct, it is more like annihilationism.
https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/what-is-hell/

You should say "some Christians" there, heh.

(I'm Christian, and like many (hundreds of) millions of Christians, I trust Christ's wordings that those in the lake of fire will be destroyed, and go into the "second death", meaning exactly what the words seem to mean. )

 

[Albion]

It doesn't offend me that some people do, but I have to doubt that "hundreds of millions " of Christians believe that all the unsaved will be annihilated. And the lake of fire is usually interpreted as referring to hell.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

There is The Kingdom of God where Jesus Christ of Nazareth is King and those who want to be with Him dwell with Him there. Then there are those who do not want to be with Him, those who have rejected Him. So it would not be fair to those who reject Him to reside with Him in the Kingdom right? So they choose the second death.

 

[tampasteve]

You should say "some Christians" there, heh.

Right, I corrected myself in post#6

 

[Halbhh]

Right, I corrected myself in post#6

Ok, but....I think it would be informative to ask plenty of people in a church you visit whether souls in the lake of fire perish and cease to exist, or whether instead they have an eternity of consciousness, and find out what people say. My guess is you'd find a lot of people think they perish there, in any church you visit, of any kind. It's not just some churches, but a widespread and standard Christian belief.

 

[tampasteve]

Ok, but....I think it would be informative to ask plenty of people in a church you visit whether souls in the lake of fire perish and cease to exist, or whether instead they have an eternity of consciousness, and find out what people say. My guess is you'd find a lot of people think they perish there, in any church you visit, of any kind. It's not just some churches, but a widespread and standard Christian belief.

I have some thoughts, but it is taking the OP off topic Feel free to start a thread in another forum though and I would be happy to contribute.

 

[Albion]

Ok, but....I think it would be informative to ask plenty of people in a church you visit whether souls in the lake of fire perish and cease to exist, or whether instead they have an eternity of consciousness, and find out what people say. My guess is you'd find a lot of people think they perish there, in any church you visit, of any kind. It's not just some churches, but a widespread and standard Christian belief.

Well, it's hardly "standard." I would put it in the same category--as far as those people in the pews that you are speaking of are concerned--as believing that children who die become angels or that our deceased relatives are looking in on us as we go through life. In other words, what might be called folk religion or popular religious myths.

 

[Halbhh]

Well, it's hardly "standard." I would put it in the same category--as far as those people in the pews that you are speaking of are concerned--as believing that children who die become angels or that our deceased relatives are looking in on us as we go through life. In other words, what might be called folk religion or popular religious myths.

I have some thoughts, but it is taking the OP off topic Feel free to start a thread in another forum though and I would be happy to contribute.

It seems to be an old doctrine -- "Early forms of conditional immortality can be found in the writings of Ignatius of Antioch[19] (d. 108), Justin Martyr[20] (d. 165), and Irenaeus[21]" says the wiki.
But, I'm not the kind to defend a doctrine in order to win a point. I don't like to do that at all. The reason it ever comes onto my radar is solely and only in answering questions about fairness some ask, and I merely tell them the view that fits all the verses as best I know, which is also more obviously fair as an extra quality it has. I brought it up in relation to the OP here because it fits the scripture best so far as I know. I don't need people to agree, but for some this viewpoint will be very helpful.

 

[Albion]

It's not just some churches, but a widespread and standard Christian belief.

Because you have reiterated this claim without further explanation, I feel like asking if you have ANY evidence that it is so. (?)

The hypothetical "Go ask the people in any church what they think" approach I don't think qualifies.

 

[Halbhh]

Because you have reiterated this claim without further explanation, I feel like asking if you have ANY evidence that it is so. (?)

The hypothetical "Go ask the people in any church what they think" approach I don't think qualifies.

Well, I'd like to find a poll about beliefs among Christians that believe in 'hell' about what it entails: whether those there perish, or instead do not perish and just endure, but that poll with that distinction isn't easy to find so far (perhaps I've not searched the right way). (instead so far I've only found polls on some other question, for instance things like what portion believe in heaven but don't believe in any kind of anything like 'hell' of any sort (not even the 'second death') -- The U.S. as 100 people: 17 believe in heaven but not hell ) So I only have talking with people in a variety of churches, most of it (not all) via hearing the views over the internet of people in various denominations enough to know this viewpoint of conditional immortality (believing the "second death" will be a real death into cessation of existence) is widespread. It seems that it's not just a small minority that believes the second death is very concretely real as a final end, but more than just a few see it this way. But I can't prove it's 22% or 47%, etc.

What makes it 'standard' viewpoint (one of various), established, old: "Early forms of conditional immortality can be found in the writings of Ignatius of Antioch[19] (d. 108), Justin Martyr[20] (d. 165), and Irenaeus[21]" is from the wiki section on this regarding the 'Church Fathers':
Annihilationism - Wikipedia

 

[Albion]

Well, I'd like to find a poll about beliefs among Christians that believe in 'hell' about what it entails: whether those there perish, or instead do not perish and just endure, but that poll with that distinction isn't easy to find so far (perhaps I've not searched the right way).

OK, so we do not have that to consider.

(instead so far I've only found polls on some other question, for instance things like what portion believe in heaven but don't believe in any kind of anything like 'hell' of any sort (not even the 'second death') -- The U.S. as 100 people: 17 believe in heaven but not hell ) So I only have talking with people in a variety of churches, most of it (not all) via hearing the views over the internet of people in various denominations enough to know this viewpoint of conditional immortality (believing the "second death" will be a real death into cessation of existence) is widespread.

You think that the people you have personally talked to about it and/or the comments online you have read make it "widespread?" I would have to disagree with that. For one thing, what are we to take as the meaning of "widespread?" Is it commonplace or simply dispersed?

Actually, I was more interested in your statement that it is "standard" (in Christianity). That is surely not true, since hardly any church accepts the notion. It may be old, but it is not standard.

 

[Solomon Smith]

How can the pottery say to the potter, “why did you make me like this”?

It is God’s choice to take with him to heaven who he will.

God chooses some and rejects others according to his purpose.

 

[Rescued One]

From Wikipedia:
The Russells lived for a time in Philadelphia before moving to Pittsburgh, where they became members of the Presbyterian Church. When Charles was in his early teens, his father made him partner of his Pittsburgh haberdashery store. By age twelve, Russell was writing business contracts for customers and given charge of some of his father's other clothing stores.[8] At age thirteen, Russell left the Presbyterian Church to join the Congregational Church. In his youth he was known to chalk Bible verses on fence boards and city sidewalks in an attempt to convert unbelievers; he particularly noted the punishment of hell awaiting the unfaithful.[9]

At age sixteen, a discussion with a childhood friend on faults perceived in Christianity(such as contradictions in creeds, along with medieval traditions) led Russell to question his faith. He investigated various other religions, but concluded that they did not provide the answers he was seeking.[10] In 1870, at age eighteen, he attended a presentation by Adventist minister Jonas Wendell. Russell later said that, although he had not entirely agreed with Wendell's arguments, the presentation had inspired him with a renewed zeal and belief that the Bible is the word of God.[11]
Charles Taze Russell - Wikipedia