Are Pastors above reproach?

[Faulty]

Now in it's full context it's a whole different thing. While I don't agree with everything, she has made some very true observations of those in the churches today. People want authority but they don't want to be under authority. We're not talking about the authority that puts others under them and lords it over them and pushes them around. We're talking about authority who guides and directs. Good authority does not give authority to babies in the faith. I have seen it and that's a true train wreck.

Many of those in authority have started out by being faithful to cleaning the toilets in the church. If a person in the church is not willing to start out small then why should the pastor give them something more important?

I'm kinda wondering why out of the whole sermon the only thing brought out was her saying something about not questioning pastors There was so much more surrounding that part of her sermon that has nothing to do with a pastor being without reproach.

It is my opinion, that if immediately a person concludes that another is way off base then they are guilty of seriously not listening.

Proverbs 18:13 To answer before listening-- that is folly and shame.

Since you quoted that verse, did you actually listen to that sermon? The whole thing starts out as the reading of a descriptive text, not prescriptive, then she goes into not what scripture teaches, but what she claims God said to her only, that no anointing is original and someone had to give up an anointing for someone else to get it (later, by extension, it's the pastor with the anointing from God, not you), and then when she laid this false foundation, that's the lying premise she builds on the whole way.

The thing was a complete disaster. There could have been all kinds of clips highlighted from that thing.

 

[murjahel]

Is anyone other than Jesus above reproach? Aren't we all supposed to meet Jesus at an 'altar'? If anyone claims to be above reproach, we have just found the first error.

 

[Frogster]

Actually i am amazed when a saved man for 30 years or so, still has to ask pastor everything.

Look at the words here, Until, that means not forever, mature, and manhood means one grows out of an adolescent attachment to pastor, and becomes his own man, manhood, not children anymore. Stature, fullness is reached!






Eph 4:13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, 14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes.


In other words, GROW UP!



4:15 Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ

 

[Biblicist]

Acts 20:28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God,[a] which he bought with his own blood.[b]

1 Peter 5 To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder and a witness of Christ’s sufferings who also will share in the glory to be revealed: 2 Be shepherds of God’s flock that is under your care, watching over them—not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not pursuing dishonest gain, but eager to serve;

In the first verse it says the Holy Spirit made them overseers. Peter calls the overseer a servant...not to be confused with door mat.

Your post was interesting but for the life of me I cannot find any connection with your remarks to those that I had previously made.

I full agree that the Holy Spirit had made certain men “overseers of the flock” and in particular that they were appointed as elders; but where pray-tell, has anyone in the Scriptures ever been appointed to the office of a pastor – there have been absolutely none.

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In the second verse it shows it could have been both. Peter is admonishing the elders/overseers/pastors for a reason. Some obviously were serving only because they were appointed by men and/or maybe they offered up their help and their initial intent was just to help, and then it became overwhelming and they felt they must (else Peter would not have had to make mention of it). He told them "don't watch over the flock because you must but because you are willing, and God wants you to be willing. Don't pursue gain but be eager to serve".

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I love it, you’ve surreptitiously inserted pastor after that of “elders/overseers”; dare I ask, where did you find that in the Scriptures? The Scriptures do not speak of any office of the pastor but many groups are certainly admonished to shepherd/care/nurture others in their care and this can be with the elders (as with Peter’s admonition) or a home group leader, youth leader or children’s worker.

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Who are we that we can think we know who in "all the world" is supposed to be in that position they are in? Why do we self-position ourselves to attack every one of them that does not do things the way we think it's supposed to be done? Those who are constantly attacking and correcting the pastors of the world should just start their own church so that it can be perfect. People do it all the time. Then the world can see how well they do everything.

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Err…what! Did you read my post # 23 where I said that it is amazing that so many people try and pretend that a theological discussion regarding the Scriptural framework for leadership is nothing less than an attack on a pastor or pastors – it absolutely staggers me

 

[Biblicist]

It's about 21 minutes in. The woman is a theological train wreck. One of the people like Bentley, that if you can't tell they are way off almost immediately, then it's you with the serious problem.

That is one very scary individual! I went to about the 21 minute mark where I was amazed with the rubbish that she was spouting and as for her eyes they gave me the heebie-jeebies!

In this day and age it's hard to believe that anyone would dare to spew forth such drivel about people not challenging their church leadership. All she seems to want is a group of followers that are nothing more than mindless drones.

 

[bushinoki]

Let us not forget; there is a biblical standard and a biblical way to address a pastor in error. There are multiple leaders in a congregation for this reason.

To the ones who keep posting that there is no biblical office of "pastor" ever listed, we can start calling them bishops then. The idea of there being a clear cut leader of a congregation is in the Bible, as well as the fact that some ministers are supposed to be full-time. Paul wrote, "a worker is worthy of his hire," and "don't muzzle an ox while he is threshing." Paul also wrote extensively on the qualifications of those called to serve in various leadership positions. What title we give them doesn't matter, only that they meet the qualifications laid out in the Bible.

 

[Ajax 777]

Apologies if the following verse has already been shared, but:

"And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,..."

- Ephesians 4:11-12 (emphasis added)

Yes. "Pastor" is laid out in the epistles alongside "teacher". Nowhere does it ever suggest anything about being above reproach; in fact, I think it says those who teach shall be judged by stricter standards. But "pastor" is indeed a Scriptural office.

 

[Biblicist]

Let us not forget; there is a biblical standard and a biblical way to address a pastor in error. There are multiple leaders in a congregation for this reason.

To the ones who keep posting that there is no biblical office of "pastor" ever listed, we can start calling them bishops then. The idea of there being a clear cut leader of a congregation is in the Bible, as well as the fact that some ministers are supposed to be full-time. Paul wrote, "a worker is worthy of his hire," and "don't muzzle an ox while he is threshing." Paul also wrote extensively on the qualifications of those called to serve in various leadership positions. What title we give them doesn't matter, only that they meet the qualifications laid out in the Bible.

There is absolutely not a skerrick of evidence in the Scriptures that even comes to close to suggesting that we are to have a single person in charge of a congregation - Paul would have an absolute fit if he knew that anyone was suggesting that he was saying such a thing!

"a worker is worthy of his hire," and "don't muzzle an ox while he is threshing."

That's absolutely true but where in the world is the connection with any supposed 'pastor' being in charge of a congregation - you're simply reading contemporary practice back into the Scriptures.

 

[Biblicist]

Apologies if the following verse has already been shared, but:

"And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,..."

- Ephesians 4:11-12 (emphasis added)

Of course the ten dollar question is, why is the shepherd (pastor) supposed to be the kingpin when we also have the roles of the apostle, prophet, evangelist and teacher? I would have thought that a teacher would have been the better choice, which is probably why some groups and even the US AoG are trying to link the pastor-teacher together as being one office.

We can also ask, why are we connecting these five roles with leadership when the passage does not make any mention of government. Anyone can hold these roles and of course shepherds (pastors) also make great home group leaders and why shouldn't we be referring to some volunteer children's workers as either teachers or shepherds?

In 1 Cor 12 Paul tells us that "God has established" eight congregational offices where he did not bother to mention anything about a pastor. Sadly, the Full Gospel movement has simply incorporated the model of the old Roman priest which the Reformers began to call 'pastors'.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Since you quoted that verse, did you actually listen to that sermon? The whole thing starts out as the reading of a descriptive text, not prescriptive, then she goes into not what scripture teaches, but what she claims God said to her only, that no anointing is original and someone had to give up an anointing for someone else to get it (later, by extension, it's the pastor with the anointing from God, not you), and then when she laid this false foundation, that's the lying premise she builds on the whole way.

The thing was a complete disaster. There could have been all kinds of clips highlighted from that thing.

Did you not read my first two sentences from my post that you quoted?

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Your post was interesting but for the life of me I cannot find any connection with your remarks to those that I had previously made.

You asked for references, I gave them. If you can't see the connection....oh well. I can't force anyone to see what they cannot see. I'll move on.

 

[ARBITER01]

It's about 21 minutes in. The woman is a theological train wreck. One of the people like Bentley, that if you can't tell they are way off almost immediately, then it's you with the serious problem.

Parsley doesn't research his speakers very well.

Like you said, she is a theological train wreck.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Of course the ten dollar question is, why is the shepherd (pastor) supposed to be the kingpin when we also have the roles of the apostle, prophet, evangelist and teacher? I would have thought that a teacher would have been the better choice, which is probably why some groups and even the US AoG are trying to link the pastor-teacher together as being one office.

We can also ask, why are we connecting these five roles with leadership when the passage does not make any mention of government. Anyone can hold these roles and of course shepherds (pastors) also make great home group leaders and why shouldn't we be referring to some volunteer children's workers as either teachers or shepherds?

In 1 Cor 12 Paul tells us that "God has established" eight congregational offices where he did not bother to mention anything about a pastor. Sadly, the Full Gospel movement has simply incorporated the model of the old Roman priest which the Reformers began to call 'pastors'.

ZING! This is an excellent reply and I applaud and amen it!

 

[bushinoki]

I'm done with the ego and pride in this thread.

 

[lismore]

If self appointed pastors are infallible then why don't we all appoint ourselves to be pastors.

 

[rdclmn72]

Nobody is above reproach, Paul reproached Peter for being a pleaser of men.

 

[malvina]

A Pastor's job is to serve his church. He gets respect as he respects others
He is a human being and just as likely to sin as anyone else.
One who understands that his church members have something worth listening to
are the ones that get my respect. A good Pastor will know that he can learn from
others - and including the newly saved. These are the best Pastors to have for anyone that is filled with Holy Spirit has something to offer the church

 

[parsley]

Jesus called us all a royal priesthood.

Notice how the five-fold ministries could be construed as gifts, not assignments or ordained/anointed/ authority.

And He gave gifts to men." ...He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fulfill all things.

And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,

​

(plural plural, multiple roles for distinct giftings)

for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;

​

(This seems to show the opposite -- that leaders are meant to uplift laymen)

until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

​

(Not one leader having an exclusive line with God)

As a result, we are no longer to be children,

​

(Not blindly submissive and vulnerable to scams. Not waiting for the leader to do everything, but moving forward as responsible adults)

tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;

but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ,

​

(Not referring to a five-fold person)

from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.

​

So... who gets the Cadillacs then? Jesus?

 

[parsley]

I couldn't get the video on this browser, but someone said it was Juanita Bynum. She uses the term "Dr." throughout her materials and About page, but shows no evidence of having taken any theology courses at all. No mention of BS or MS.

It is probably an honorary doctorate: these are usually gestures from colleges to honor commencement speakers. No coursework involved, but recognition that the person has accomplished a lot without a degree.

Seminary is not a scriptural requirement for shepherding the people or teaching, but being above reproach is. Calling herself Dr. without the decade of coursework is deceptive. And certainly does not deserve members' submission.

She is a great motivator, passionate speaker, and tireless entrepreneur.

From her site:

"Dr. Juanita Bynum is in pursuit of all of her dreams and goals including the launching of several new business entities which will include Mount Olive Bath and Spa line, Ethne skin care and make line a clothing line, Sonflower Publishing, Sonflower Records, Juanita Bynum Dance Academy, The Tom Bynum Life Coach Institute, Juanita Bynum Radio, a magazine and several other prominent business ventures. Additionally, Bynum is a featured host on Radio 1000...". And on.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans]Most of her ministry's description is about everything she has built up for herself. Not the equipping of the saints.
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[ByTheSpirit]

I couldn't get the video on this browser, but someone said it was Juanita Bynum. She uses the term "Dr." throughout her materials and About page, but shows no evidence of having taken any theology courses at all. No mention of BS or MS.

It is probably an honorary doctorate: these are usually gestures from colleges to honor commencement speakers. No coursework involved, but recognition that the person has accomplished a lot without a degree.

Seminary is not a scriptural requirement for shepherding the people or teaching, but being above reproach is. Calling herself Dr. without the decade of coursework is deceptive. And certainly does not deserve members' submission.

She is a great motivator, passionate speaker, and tireless entrepreneur.

From her site:

"Dr. Juanita Bynum is in pursuit of all of her dreams and goals including the launching of several new business entities which will include Mount Olive Bath and Spa line, Ethne skin care and make line a clothing line, Sonflower Publishing, Sonflower Records, Juanita Bynum Dance Academy, The Tom Bynum Life Coach Institute, Juanita Bynum Radio, a magazine and several other prominent business ventures. Additionally, Bynum is a featured host on Radio 1000...". And on.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans]Most of her ministry's description is about everything she has built up for herself. Not the equipping of the saints.
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Well then she shouldnt be putting her nose in church affairs..