Are Our Standards Too Low?

[chaz345]

Hey everyone. I have been having some comp trouble this afternoon and I'm about to go out with my family, so I'm also going to give some thought to the cornucopia of food for thought provided here.

I will also add that I think that I suffered as Chaz did from giving in too much, in fact. I think that anyone of either sex does the same thing. I'm also confused about what we're really arguing about here.

I will try to answer everyone's questions right now but I have to get going right away. Thinking of all of you. I appreciate that everyone has kept the tone of this discussion civil; this is one of the things I really like about this forum whether people agree or not.

Here's what's really strange about my situation though. It wasn't me that suffered from my giving in too much, it was her. She eventually came to a point where her feeling like she needed to make every decision caused her to fell overwhelmed and that's what had the biggest negative impact on our marriage. From a personality type standpoint, from a what's comfortable for me(comfortable but not necessarily healthy) I'm perfectly at home not only not in the driver's seat but not even in the cockpit so to speak. That's another reason why Psalm's accusations that I'm too into authority and control are, in as polite a word as possible, laughable.

 

[sdmsanjose]

Are our standards to low for marriage?

I am going to use the word PRACTICE instead of STANDARD because it best describes our situation.

For years it was my practice, when I had a bad day at work, to come home and let the bad day affect my relations with my wife and family. I would not be mean, I just would not respond very well to my wife’s hugs and kisses and my children’s joy to see me come home. I let the work situation affect my home life. As I got older I got my priorities in better shape.

My wife told me that her practice of not making a strong enough effort to involve herself in my interests was a low standard/practice. My wife says that I have a higher interest in socialization than she does and that she needs to improve in that area.

I don’t know if our lower standards/practices are that spiritual but they do affect our marriage. We have both improved on these areas but there is always room for more improvement.

We offset out low standards by having several interests and activities that we both enjoy together. Interest and activities such as watching certain TV programs together, camping, doing home improvements/repairs, we like the same music, we are the same faith, we enjoy family get-togethers, and we enjoy eating together and going out to eat.

 

[Psalm63]

That's another reason why Psalm's accusations that I'm too into authority and control are, in as polite a word as possible, laughable.

This is an example of failure to listen. Instead of taking what I said at face value, it has been ignored and disregarded, and a caricature of my opinion has been created. I don't know what motivates that? But I sure hope its not your practice with your wife and children...

I said this:

I don't perceive C and C as
"wrapped up headship exercised by power,control and authority"
HOWEVER, I do see them as buying into that paradigm enough that they are extremely insensitive toward women who are dealing with men
"wrapped up headship exercised by power,control and authority".
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I am tempted to turn you on "ignore", because you have ignored what I wrote and made up your own reality to project onto me, but I do think you are spot on in your views on porn.

Anyway, the two C's are bricks in the "church" wall for just such episodes as this and there is NO point in seeking out brick walls to bang one's head against. I'll watch for McScribe's posts and skip the rest or skim sparingly.

 

[chaz345]

I don't know what motivates that?

Quite possibly the fact that you do it to me/us in nearly every post.
Your rant about my "support" of Zogi being a prime example.

 

[chaz345]

HOWEVER, I do see them as buying into that paradigm enough that they are extremely insensitive toward women who are dealing with men
"wrapped up headship exercised by power,control and authority".

Not not at all insensitive toward women who have been through that. Maybe a little insensitive toward women who have been through that who then take their experiences and decide that nearly every man on the planet is just like their husband and go on a crusade to convince other women of that fact.

 

[Conservativation]

Originally Posted by chaz345

That's another reason why Psalm's accusations that I'm too into authority and control are, in as polite a word as possible, laughable.
​

This is an example of failure to listen. Instead of taking what I said at face value, it has been ignored and disregarded, and a caricature of my opinion has been created. I don't know what motivates that? But I sure hope its not your practice with your wife and children...

I said this:

I don't perceive C and C as
"wrapped up headship exercised by power,control and authority"


______________________________________________

But Psalm, you have said it boldly, again and again, on other forums. You have spoken quite specifically into my marriage for sure, maybe a bit less so into chaz. Sure based on JUST the above you are correct. But others may not realize this cage match has been going on awhile here on WWF.

I dont "buy the paradigm" at all. I dont live that way, and more importantly I have never nor do I KNOW anyone who lives that way or has ever done so. Ive asked that question now ion 3 forums, "how many marriages have you EVER known that had a man using scriptural leadership to run rough shod over the wife?"....and the other question "how many sermons have you ever encountered that endorse that kind of submission teaching?" Its crucial.....I have found (other than psalm) a total of ONE person who said they had first hand seen that, and maybe 2 or 3 who have ever seen it preached. Add that to the people I know and the churches Ive attended and the sermons Ive sought online and the blogs and boards Ive read and I am convinced its a scare tactic. Its used to sell an agenda. It would be perfectly fine, if as a testimony, someone broken under this came and told the heartbreaking story, and shared and even mentioned , hey this is very bad so dont let it happen to you.....but Psalm, you CRUSADE literally against MEN. Its that simple really. And I see the effects, not of YOU, but of this thinking, as I read boards and see, especially younger wives 35 and under ranting and raving almost angrily from how they 'aint gonna have NO man runnin them over"....to the ubiquitous and myriad of ways of proclaiming "I am woman hear me roar"...to finally the "Im a liberated woman" (which in my estimation well, if you live in the US, western Europe, NZ, Australia, and a few others thats a DUH! statement)...all this grows from the fear that the world is filled with men who seek to keep women down and have them obediently serving us.
It gets more complicated and becomes a no win situation as men simultaneously get told, when we express concenrs of disapproval of things to stop complaining and MAN UP! HUH?! If we "man up" isnt that what the other fear is all about...that we manned up TOO MUCH? Or the other thing where the ladies complain "he's not being a spiritual leader"....OK, Im not sure you really want a spiritual leader, as much as a spiritual task master, ticking of a pre-approved (by wife) schedule and list of things to do that are "spiritual habits"....but dont do it TOO much, or its LEADING, dont do it too little or you ARE NOT leading....sheesh.

This fear is spread through this created image of men as bullies. It doesnt really help that , as we saw elsewhere, in child development studies they even teach the tendency of the boys to anger and physicality and roughness, you know, the opposite of sugar and spice?

Im sorry, my sons are NOT innately inferior. They are not less nuanced of communicators, they are not emotionally lacking, they are not learning disabled, they are not uncontrolled sexual beings, nor predators, they are not liars and potential cheaters by nature, they are not selfish and neglectful of others any more than any HUMAN. I'll tell you what they are...at least the one old enough to see and have an opinion...they are mightily confused at the world and what their REAL role is. The whole thing is mixed signals. They dont want to upset people, they dont want to have to "man up" just to be equals! They just want to be left alone, to be Godly males. And to not be sold that that is a liability.
​

 

[sdmsanjose]

Exactly when did this post derail the OP and become Con and Chaz VS Psalm?

 

[Conservativation]

Exactly when did this post derail the OP and become Con and Chaz VS Psalm?

Check back the past few pages and see who is in this discussion please. The man who started the thread in deeply involved in it, so Im not sure what you are getting at.

Threads do this. Its why they get long. They are like conversations. How many times have you discussed on thing and never gone on a tangent? Most times folks end up talking about totally unrelated things...these things are related to the OP very much so.

There may be forums where mods jump in and insist absolute OP purity, Ive seen them here even admonish for going off topic. But this isnt like a formal debate or something where we can be called out and lose points for relevance.

So, to answer the question....it hasnt...

 

[mkgal1]

Excuse my interuption of this ongoing (and seemingly-never ending) argument....I am sure it will continue in no time, but I wanted to point out something Stan said here:

We offset our low standards by having several interests and activities that we both enjoy together. Interest and activities such as watching certain TV programs together, camping, doing home improvements/repairs, we like the same music, we are the same faith, we enjoy family get-togethers, and we enjoy eating together and going out to eat.

I wonder how many of us do this?....we, as husbands and wives, make up for our low standards by having several interests we both enjoy that give the impression that our marriage is okay...it is tolerable....we can live with it...so things slip by. Then we are hit with a crisis, and it then becomes apparent that things AREN'T so great.

 

[sdmsanjose]

Quote by CON
Check back the past few pages and see who is in this discussion please. The man who started the thread in deeply involved in it, so Im not sure what you are getting at.

What I am getting at is that your debate with Psalm maybe a good one but we have heard it a LOT of times and a lot of it is a continuation of your conflict with Psalm which is mostly off the topic of this thread. The man that started the OP tried to keep this discussion on topic several times. See below

McScribe post 79
In a way I'm sorry that this thread has not been about the ideas/standards/whatever you want to call them that I originally posted. It seems to have degenerated into a conversation about what people are worried about or afraid of.
If possible I'd like to bring things back to discussion of the OP



McScribe post 139
I think that this thread has gotten hijacked by this issue. There's been such a terror that people MIGHT get emotionally bullied that there has been almost no actual discussion of the standards themselves


McScribe Post 141
For a moment then I am asking that we put aside the subject of confrontational approach to talk about how to reach an understanding between a couple as to how to have such standards.

Con, you are a smart man and you know what you are doing. Why don’t you start a thread that has your specific topics presented? You started one a few days ago and I responded to that thread. There is nothing wrong with your posts it is just that you keep saying the same thing on some of the same topics on different threads that are not that related to your topics.

I may be mistaken but I think that the OP was trying to get us to examine our standards so that we could discuss how to promote positive standards in relationships. You have posted a lot of information that talk about the issue of the man being viewed negatively by psalm. It seems that your posts have become a personal battle with Psalm.

Your topics may draw a lot of interest if they were posted as a separate thread and not so much as a personal battle against Psalm JMO. I don’t think that that your personal battle posts fit real well in this thread.

 

[sdmsanjose]

MKGAL QUOTE
I wonder how many of us do this?....we make up for our low standards by having several interests we both enjoy that give the impression that our marriage is okay...it is tolerable....we can live with it...so things slip by. Then we are hit with a crisis, and it then becomes apparent that things AREN'T so great

.


I think that this is a good post and is what I think the OP is about. We examine our standards and then discuss so that we can see if there is a way to improve. MKGAL has pointed out that we can smooth over some negative standards with positive activities and then let it go until a crisis.

This to me is a good warning to us and may be helpful in getting a couple to work on issues before they become crises

Thank you MKGAL

 

[Conservativation]

I will stop.
I will not post again in this thread, or at least I will attempt, earnestly, to not do so.

I have never nor will I ever think there is profit in the activity of discussing the faults of our spouses, as a primary focus. In as much as you may see this thread end up in the "same ole topic".....I see it and pretty much most threads here are about fixing men. There are men posting trying to fix themselves, and women posting to fix men, and that passes as deep examination of relational issues. Oh sure there are a couple of exceptions....but what Im saying is absolutely true.

Ask for eyes to see it.....and you will see it. Its there, buried in language of hurt, language of scripture, even hints of conciliatory language....but it boild down to that.

I can't do it. Not that that is a big deal...its just me....but I am frankly incapable of pursuing those topics anymore. Im sorry for that, its my affliction.

Onward as she goes!!

 

[mkgal1]

I will stop.
I will not post again in this thread, or at least I will attempt, earnestly, to not do so.

I have never nor will I ever think there is profit in the activity of discussing the faults of our spouses, as a primary focus. In as much as you may see this thread end up in the "same ole topic".....I see it and pretty much most threads here are about fixing men. There are men posting trying to fix themselves, and women posting to fix men, and that passes as deep examination of relational issues. Oh sure there are a couple of exceptions....but what Im saying is absolutely true.

Ask for eyes to see it.....and you will see it. Its there, buried in language of hurt, language of scripture, even hints of conciliatory language....but it boild down to that.

I can't do it. Not that that is a big deal...its just me....but I am frankly incapable of pursuing those topics anymore. Im sorry for that, its my affliction.

Onward as she goes!!

And maybe that is an issue for you, Cons. Your "uh oh....she is trying to fix me" meter goes off pretty easily. I believe an attitude like that can keep a PERSON--male or female--from allowing another person to positively influence them. We are wise to listen to and consider all counsel. God used a donkey to deliver the truth....so the truth can come from many sources.

 

[Conservativation]

see my new thread.

 

[McScribe]

It's very tempting to let things go on--referring to mkgal1's post here. Things don't seem that threatening so we try to keep having a nice evening or a nice weekend without dealing with something that's actually a problem

I think that that's where the courage part comes in, and for us believers in Christ that has to come from our realization that who we are cannot be invalidated. Sure, we ourselves can refuse to follow Christ but ultimately our value doesn't come from whether we've done the dishes or avoided having an argument or got to work on time or anything else--it is based on the grace of God in our lives, in us having received Christ and therefore being justified by HIS sacrifice. So that we can have courage even if it's awfully scary to talk about something.

I like the idea of practices as an alternate word to standards. Practice is good because it does take practice to keep being loving.

One question here: could we talk about prayer again? What are good practices to keep prayer alive and involved with God as a couple? What do people find helpful?

I find that one thing that is VERY helpful is remembering to genuinely and intentionally pray when facing troubles as a couple, rather than seeking justifications, being defensive, arguing before you think or seek wisdom.

 

[Psalm63]

I think that that's where the courage part comes in, and for us believers in Christ that has to come from our realization that who we are cannot be invalidated. Sure, we ourselves can refuse to follow Christ but ultimately our value doesn't come from whether we've done the dishes or avoided having an argument or got to work on time or anything else--it is based on the grace of God in our lives, in us having received Christ and therefore being justified by HIS sacrifice. So that we can have courage even if it's awfully scary to talk about something.

I don't have anything constructive to say about praying as a couple...
but I think you have hit a key in your comment above. If I let others define me instead of God- whether he (validates) judges me as performing well and is pleased, or whether he (invalidates) judges me as a failure and is displeased... I have made that person into an idol. It is only when I find my value and worth in Christ that the judgments of others can roll off like water off a duck's back:

But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by a human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself. 4 For I know of nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but He who judges me is the Lord. 1 Cor 4:3-4

​

It was only through realizing that God really loves and accepts me that I was able to have the courage to speak up about problems.

 

[chaz345]

I don't have anything constructive to say about praying as a couple...
but I think you have hit a key in your comment above. If I let others define me instead of God- whether he (validates) judges me as performing well and is pleased, or whether he (invalidates) judges me as a failure and is displeased... I have made that person into an idol. It is only when I find my value and worth in Christ that the judgments of others can roll off like water off a duck's back:

But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by a human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself. 4 For I know of nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but He who judges me is the Lord. 1 Cor 4:3-4

​

It was only through realizing that God really loves and accepts me that I was able to have the courage to speak up about problems.

So if one's worth and acceptance and validation is to come only from God, then why should your husband( or anyone) really care about what their spouse thinks when a problem is raised? Can you not see that what you say about God being the only thing that matters is very similar to the thought process that many overly authoritative men use in ignoring what their wives think/say /feel?

 

[Psalm63]

Chaz,

Can you not see that what you say about God being the only thing that matters

​

That is not what I said.

If you want to understand what I mean about looking to God for one's validation and value (not to people- whether they are dishing out affirmation or criticism), I thought of a book by Max Lucado which I often read to my children and I found a site which describes it well and has a link to read it: You Are Special!

And here are a couple verses:

Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ. Gal 1:10


...whose praise is not from men but from God. Rom 2:29

​

I don't wish to hijack McScribe's topic. I was really looking forward to reading some comments on prayer... (((sigh)))

 

[Conservativation]

I have taught kids from the book you are special, the spanish version especially on mission trips. There is a sequel even.

But your post did contradict the other points about correcting your spouse, because you are admitting there are things that are Gods standards that we owe to God and are measured BY God for, and can only TRUST God to measure our "performance".

It does indeed directly go against the idea of correcting ones spouse according to same standards. Call it judging or evaluating or whatever, its contradictory.

 

[McScribe]

I'm actually gonna suggest a fresh start and try talking about the standards/practices as a separate thread, starting with prayer. I don't mind continuing discussions here but the thread has grown hugely and a lot of it is a debate about another subject altogether.