Are Non-Christians Predestined to go to Hell?

[frumanchu]

But from the Calvinist point of view (if I am correct), A person that is predestined to salvation would not die in infancy or be born severely mentally disabled, because that would prevent them from having a faith in Jesus, which you need for salvation.

Not true. Infants and these disabled are not able to outwardly express the disposition of their hearts (by outwardly express I include the normal faculty of the will which they do not at that point possess), but that does not change their covenantal position.

Keep in mind that they are condemnable in the first place on the basis of their covenantal representation in Adam. Man's sinfulness, as manifest normally in the faculty of the will and the outward actions of the individual, proceeds from a heart that is from the very beginning full of evil. We are not sinners because we sin, but rather we sin because we are sinners. In regenerating these people He is replacing their heart of stone with a heart of flesh.

If a Calvinist can positively discern, based on ones faith as evidence, that they are predestined to salvation, wouldn't it follow that if God created someone who was unable to have faith in Jesus, they would be predestined to damnation?

Now though we are talking about subjective vs objective evidence. The only person whose election you or I can have any real assurance of is our own. While we can see the present outward state of others, we cannot see their heart, so we do not know if the works which they perform are born of something other than a regenerate, and more importantly in this case we do not know if the perceived lack of such works is indicative of a lack of a regenerate heart.

 

[Jon_]

How about people that are born mentally incapable that cannot confess faith in Jesus or children that die before being able to confess faith in Jesus? Are those people predestined to go to Hell?

All men are imputed the unrighteousness of Adam (Rom. 5:12). All men sin from the womb (Ps. 58:3). All men know God, but deny him in their hearts (Rom. 1:18-21). All men are born wicked and deserving of damnation. All men are born enemies of God, hating him and his law, transgressing it in word, thought, and deed.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Jon_]

But for this example let us say that a person that is sufficiently mentally incapacitated from birth enough not to be able to possess a faith in Jesus (A mental vegetable, not just an inability to speak) and that a child that has not reached an age of reason enough to possess a faith in Christ that dies. Are they predestined by God to go to Hell?

If the child is elect, it shall be saved. If reprobate, it shall not.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Jon_]

Nevertheless, from what I gather from what you and others have said in this forum, anyone who does not have faith in Jesus, including people that die in infancy or who are severely mentally disabled, are predestined by God to Hell. Right?

All the elect will be saved. All the reprobate will not.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Jon_]

But from the Calvinist point of view (if I am correct), A person that is predestined to salvation would not die in infancy or be born severely mentally disabled, because that would prevent them from having a faith in Jesus, which you need for salvation.

This does not follow. The Calvinist view does not affirm this.

If a Calvinist can positively discern, based on ones faith as evidence, that they are predestined to salvation, wouldn't it follow that if God created someone who was unable to have faith in Jesus, they would be predestined to damnation?

No one can know the state of the soul of another person. No Calvinist, no man, can "positively discern . . . that [one is] predestined to salvation." So the answer to your question is no. It does not follow.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Cary.Melvin]

If the child is elect, it shall be saved. If reprobate, it shall not.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

If the child has no faith in Jesus, how could he/she be elect (In the Calvinist view of course)? If the child were truly elect, God would not predestine them to die in infancy. Right?

 

[Jon_]

The Pre-destined belief has never really made any sense.

Obviously not to you, but that doesn't mean it does not make sense at all.

If we were all pre-destined..then that takes away free will...

Define "free will."

it takes away choice...

How?

which means the incredibly complex brain God created was a waste...

How?

and that our lives are nothing more than a big, sick joke

Says who? You?

because nothing you do changes anything... and the point of you making any decision is just as pointless as existance.

You think existence is pointless? Why does being able to "change" (what do you mean by that?) something make existence have a point and not having that ability make existence pointless? Do you have any Scriptures that affirm this or is this nothing more than your opinion? If it's your opinion, why should I care?

It also means I wouldn't be responsible for ANY of my actions..because it was pre-destined to happen.

How are you not responsible?

You've obviously new at this, so I'm trying to go easy on you. This smug little smiley after such an ignorant monologue is making it difficult.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Jon_]

If the child has no faith in Jesus, how could he/she be elect (In the Calvinist view of course)?

What makes you think that all children that die have no faith?

If the child were truly elect, God would not predestine them to die in infancy. Right?

How does that follow?

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Cary.Melvin]

No one can know the state of the soul of another person.

Jon you said earlier:

"Do not fool yourself. There are no Muslims that do good. They are evil, wicked, God-hating tools of Satan, who willingly transgress the law and make war against God."
To me that sounds that you (or Calvinism in general) have placed the Muslims in the ranks of the reprobate, based on their understanding of God. Is this correct? Are children of Muslims also placed with the reprobate as well? Wouldn't children in general who die without a faith in Jesus be assigned to the reprobate as well?

 

[Cary.Melvin]

What makes you think that all children that die have no faith?

How could they have faith in something that they do not know? Babies don't come out of the womb having a faith in Jesus Christ. That is why that we as parents must teach them.

 

[rnmomof7]

If the child has no faith in Jesus, how could he/she be elect (In the Calvinist view of course)? If the child were truly elect, God would not predestine them to die in infancy. Right?

Was John the Baptist ?

If God has ordained that an infant in the womb know him, the child will know Him.

Salvation is an act of a sovereign God, it is not dependent at all on man.So it does not depend on our intellect or age or OUTWARD ability to understand or grasp the gospel.

Have you ever read when Helen Keller was first told of God, she said she "knew " there had to be a God.

Infants are saved in the womb, they are saved in their mothers arms or at the breast if God reveals Himself to them.

 

[rnmomof7]

Mod Hat.


I Just want to inform posters that I have moved this thread to the appropriate forum for discussion.

This is a congregational area and so there is no debate. Debating posts will be removed by staff.

Thanks

 

[Jon_]

To me that sounds that you (or Calvinism in general) have placed the Muslims in the ranks of the reprobate, based on their understanding of God. Is this correct?

When did I say Muslims are reprobate? The answer to your question is no. I mean that anyone who is currently a Muslim is not a believer in God. This does not mean that they will not convert later in their lives.

Are children of Muslims also placed with the reprobate as well? Wouldn't children in general who die without a faith in Jesus be assigned to the reprobate as well?

I'm sorry, you do not seem to understand reprobation. Reprobation refers only to the eternal decree of God before the foundations of the world we laid. If someone is reprobate, they are predestined to damnation before they are even born. Their temporal life cannot necessarily be used as a gauge for God's decree in their life. God's decree of election and reprobation is eternally hidden from the eyes of men. It is impious for anyone to declare another person to be reprobate. They cannot possibly know that.

I can understand that you are trying to reduce the Calvinist position to absurdity, but you're certainly not going to accomplish that by inferring from reprobation. I'd suggest you look elsewhere.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[frumanchu]

Jon you said earlier:

"Do not fool yourself. There are no Muslims that do good. They are evil, wicked, God-hating tools of Satan, who willingly transgress the law and make war against God."
To me that sounds that you (or Calvinism in general) have placed the Muslims in the ranks of the reprobate, based on their understanding of God. Is this correct? Are children of Muslims also placed with the reprobate as well? Wouldn't children in general who die without a faith in Jesus be assigned to the reprobate as well?

Please understand that there is a difference between knowing whether somebody is saved and knowing if they are elect or reprobate. All the elect are covenantally in a state of condemnation from birth up until the point they are brought to faith in Christ. If, hypothetically, an elect person were to die prior to being regenerated and brought to faith, that person would still go to hell. That does not happen, but the point being illustrated is that while we can say that Muslims who do not believe in Christ are unsaved, we cannot say that they are not elect unless they have persisted in that unbelief to their death.

Does that make sense to you?

 

[Jon_]

How could they have faith in something that they do not know?

How do you know they don't know?

Babies don't come out of the womb having a faith in Jesus Christ.

How do you know?

That is why that we as parents must teach them.

This begs the question. In any case, this is not why we must teach them. We must teach them because we are commanded to teach them.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Cary.Melvin]

Salvation is an act of a sovereign God, it is not dependent at all on man.So it does not depend on our intellect or age or OUTWARD ability to understand or grasp the gospel.

So doesn't that mean that even non-Christains can be saved? For example, the Jew or the Muslim that cannot fully grasp the gospel of Jesus Christ, but lives his life in obedience to God to the best of his understanding will be saved by God's grace.

 

[Jon_]

So doesn't that mean that even non-Christains can be saved?

No.

For example, the Jew or the Muslim that cannot fully grasp the gospel of Jesus Christ, but lives his life in obedience to God to the best of his understanding will be saved by God's grace.

Without faith it is impossible to please God (Heb 11:6). I also quoted you three other Scriptures that say there are none on earth that do good. How many more should I quote? 5? 10? 50? Pick a number, the Bible is rife with the message that natural man is utterly incapable of doing anything good whatsoever. It is simply false that a Jew or a Muslim could do anything that God would construe as good without faith in Jesus Christ. I understand that the Catholic Church teaches you otherwise, but this is not what the Bible teaches.

Moreover, you do err greatly in not understanding the grace of God. Grace is not given to him who works, for then it would be no more grace. Nor is he who works rewarded with grace, for the work is accounted as debt. Grace is given by divine prerogative to those that God will save, for all are incapable of earning salvation themselves. For we are saved by grace through faith, and that not of ourselves, it is the gift of God. Therefore, grace and regeneration, precede faith, which precedes works.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[BBAS 64]

Good Day, All

Great thread

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[pinkieposies]

If the child has no faith in Jesus, how could he/she be elect (In the Calvinist view of course)? If the child were truly elect, God would not predestine them to die in infancy. Right?

I'm sorry that doesn't make ANY sense to me. You are presuming a lot of things here. It seems that you are just out to make Calvinists look like a bunch of cold-hearted meanies who want to send babies to hell.



So far there have been many good answers to your question. Maybe I just don't understand the point you are trying to make. Maybe if you could state your question more clearly we could do a better job at clearly answering it?

Erin

 

[JJB]

Being unable to express faith is not the same as not possessing faith. God deals with them according to His grace and good will.

Amen. I had a relative who had down's syndrome. He died when I was a child. I know I will see him again in heaven one day. I enjoyed his company because we both shared a faith: mine was expressible in words, his was expressible in body language!