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Are Nazarenes Liberal ?

circuitrider

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Aside from some possible cholesterol reduction benefits, there is nothing good about consuming alcohol except for intoxication and I think there might be some scripture about that.

I applaud the way you stick to your convictions, MM, in favoring abstinence.

Very true Bryan. But churches have often condemned alcohol because of its health risks while ignoring tobacco, or gluttony (probably US American Christians most common health sin).

I also realize this is an ecumenical forum. So we will have wide views on topic like alcohol.
 
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GraceSeeker

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Wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler,
and whoever is led astray by it is not wise.

Proverbs 20:1 NRSV




No longer drink only water, but take a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.

1 Timothy 5:23 NRSV



The problem with proof-texting on this subject is that wherever text you use to support whatever position you wish to claim, there is always another text that would support the other side. Questions regarding the use of alcohol in scripture require a much more nuanced response than just a blanket acceptance or rejection of it. Selective use is recognized as accepted practice, but drunkenness is not. Some place between those two seems to be a practice that corresponds to biblical practices.
 
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circuitrider

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One last personal opinion on alcohol for what it is worth. Feel free to disagree. :)

I've known a number of young people who grew up in homes where alcohol was use in moderation. That includes my own child. My kid learned about the dangers of abusing alcohol, never saw me drive while drinking, there was never an issues of abuse and was taught about drinking responsibly. Her and her friends see alcohol as no big deal and really don't drink that much.

Because there was no mystery in drinking she never felt the need to binge drink, sneak alcohol, or think there was something special about it. It was just an every day thing.

I've also known young people whose parents made alcohol a huge taboo so that as soon as they got out of the house it was one of the first acts of rebellion for them to drink too much and party too hard. And because no one taught them what "too much" meant, they were often naive in their use of alcohol and got into more trouble than people who were raised to know about alcohol.

I can think of at least three examples of persons coming from anti-alcohol famlies where this happened to their student in college or elsewhere.

If you make something taboo you can often make it the most desirable thing to try. So I see the opposite of irresponsible use is responsible use not no use.

Again, my opinion.
 
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BryanW92

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And because no one taught them what "too much" meant, they were often naive in their use of alcohol and got into more trouble than people who were raised to know about alcohol.

I'm glad that I was never that naive that I couldn't figure out what "drunk" was. I've never been drunk, but I have had morphine when my gall bladder blew up and I had Valium before a surgery twice. I immediately knew that I was not in my right mind when the drugs took effect.

I just don't think that there is a "responsible" way to model drugs, cigarettes, booze, premarital sex, or any other vice that people will discover on their own. To raise children with the idea that these kind of vices can be "controlled" for good purposes is irresponsible, IMHO.
 
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GraceSeeker

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I just don't think that there is a "responsible" way to model ... booze ... that people will discover on their own. To raise children with the idea that these kind of vices can be "controlled" for good purposes is irresponsible, IMHO.


So, you believe that Jesus engaged in a vice and was irresponsible?
 
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circuitrider

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So, you believe that Jesus engaged in a vice and was irresponsible?

Beat me to it GraceSeeker.

Bryan, also it would be helpful if we discussed sex, drugs, and cigarettes seperately. They are different issues. Alcohol is a difficult enough issue without tossing every other moral issue into the same conversation.
 
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RomansFiveEight

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Up here in the part of the world dominated by Scandinavian and German descended folks I'm not sure abstinence ever made much headway here. It is part of the culture. I personally am an advocated for judicious use.

One of my theological concerns is banning practices from the Church that aren't required in the scriptures. I respect people who want to abstain from alcohol or who have decided that they don't want to watch movies or play cards. But I don't see much Biblical support for the Church restricting those practices.

If you read John Wesley carefully he was opposed to drinking gin and other distilled alcohol because of the rampant alcoholism and abuse of cheap gin in his day. But apparently Wesley still drank wine and many Christians including Methodists drank beer until the Temperance Movement lumped all alcohol drinking together.

In fact the owner of Guinness was an Irish Methodist who gave huge sums of money to charity and helped the poor.

So there are a number of ways to look at these issues.

An interesting article I read a couple weeks ago about the Gin, was also the quality. This is long before governmental regulations on that sort of stuff. And the Gin industry was notorious for producing notoriously dangerous gin, that could cause madness, seizures, death. So by virtue of that industries willingness to continue selling a toxic drink, Wesley opposed even the 'good' gin. In much the same way he opposed pawn shops. Because so many of them preyed on alcoholics. Taking a priceless family heirloom and trading it for a bottle of gin, etc. Wesley didn't think the Methodists should support that industry at all. Even today, our Book of Resolutions suggest UM's not gamble. Not because gambling is inherently bad, but because we know the implication that gambling institutions can often bring (offering financing, allowing people to get 'loans' against their bets, willingly and knowingly letting people burn their last dollar, human trafficking, rampant prostitution, etc.). So it's not the act of gambling that's bad, so much as the industry one supports when they gamble; even responsibly. (Though I know plenty of UM's who gamble at Casinos; and I'm not bringing that up to discuss it. Just to outline one of our own 'Resolutions' against a practice that is not doctrinal, but that's why it's in the BOR, not the restricted section of the BOD!)

As folks around here might already know I'm someone who practices abstinence but encourages judicious use or abstinence. I'm not opposed to responsible consumption. Another thing I've noticed is some of my Baptist friends won't darken the door of an establishment that serves Alcohol. Which I guess is where I'd differ from them. Even though I personally don't drink, I love bars. Great food, I love listening to local bands, etc. And honestly I've never been in a bar where it was a problem that I just came to eat and drink tea :)
 
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circuitrider

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Anybody on here condemning alcohol must also condemn guns. Both are harmless when possessed by responsible individuals and deadly when in the wrong hands. You can't have it both ways.

I hate to mix topics. If we want to talk about gun issues another thread would be less confusing. But I do want to point out that guns aren't intended to be harmless. It is a gun, not a loaf of bread. It was made to shoot something or someone.Be that as it may, I do think that you can judiciously use and own a gun and you can judiciously use alcohol. All things in moderation is a better motto than "ban it if it can be misused."

Nearly anything can be abused. You can eat too much or the wrong foods and ruin your health. You can kill people with your car if you don't drive it properly. A drug that might save a life can also kill if taken in the wrong dosage. There are a fair number of people who contend that sugary soft drinks are killing people.

For many things moderate and measured use is the right answer rather than no use.
 
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RomansFiveEight

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I hate to mix topics. If we want to talk about gun issues another thread would be less confusing. But I do want to point out that guns aren't intended to be harmless. It is a gun, not a loaf of bread. It was made to shoot something or someone.Be that as it may, I do think that you can judiciously use and own a gun and you can judiciously use alcohol. All things in moderation is a better motto than "ban it if it can be misused."

Nearly anything can be abused. You can eat too much or the wrong foods and ruin your health. You can kill people with your car if you don't drive it properly. A drug that might save a life can also kill if taken in the wrong dosage. There are a fair number of people who contend that sugary soft drinks are killing people.

For many things moderate and measured use is the right answer rather than no use.

+1. We are more advanced people, thanks to the brains God gave us. Let's use them and not make blanket if/all statements, and instead let's try to best understand God's will in our lives. Not believe arbitrarily that you have to treat everything as if it's one big blanket. I don't believe Alcohol or Guns (or most other issues) can be dealt with in a blanket way or, sometimes, even the same way in two similar circumstances! I can think of very few issues where it can be distilled as simply as "you must handle it this way, exactly this way, every time"

Volraider; you might think you've got a zinger there but you'll find those on this forum in favor of stricted gun laws and even total gun bans. From previous discussion topics and just those who I've connected with; I know that to be true.

And circuitrider, just to put a wrench into things; I'll add that somethings initial purpose has as little bearing to what it might be made for or used for today; as Volraiders if/then statement. Firearms date to the 10th century (in a very crude, primitive form. Modern firearm systems date to about the 14th century and the advent of the repeating rifle after the turn of the 20th century. Basically there have been no other advancements since WWII except for the use of lighter composites instead of wood for the stocks. Full auto actually goes back to the Civil War but wasn't widely used until WWI, etc. And, obviously, most of the firearms major improvements were made for and during wartime). But when talking about guns, we're not usually talking about 10th century fire lances or even 20-round full-auto Browning Automatic Rifle from 1917 (the first 'assault rifle') We're usually talking about guns people use and own today, and what they use them for. So; that's where the discussion should lead; as opposed to what mongols used during the 14th century to conquer the middle east.

Likewise, with Alcohol, it was ORIGINALLY used for sanitation. But today it could be used just for plain enjoyment (judicious use) or purely for intoxication (something I think even a judicious use proponent would oppose). Personally, I don't mind the former, if that's what someone wants to do, but still encourage people to refrain from the latter.
 
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circuitrider

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Again, I hate to mix the gun discussion with the alcohol discussion very much. They are two important subject with different issues.

As to intoxication, anyone who drinks alcohol is at some level intoxicated even if at a minimal level. Anyone who drinks and thinks it does not effect them physically is dangerous. People who drink responsibly know how much they are drinking, how it effects them, how long it has been since their last drink etc. And of course, anyone who can't take a drink and then put it down shouldn't be drinking.

As we are all aware, there are people who are alcoholics. The question is does that fact that some people cannot responsibly consume alcohol mean that no one can.
 
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RomansFiveEight

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Again, I hate to mix the gun discussion with the alcohol discussion very much. They are two important subject with different issues.

As to intoxication, anyone who drinks alcohol is at some level intoxicated even if at a minimal level. Anyone who drinks and thinks it does not effect them physically is dangerous. People who drink responsibly know how much they are drinking, how it effects them, how long it has been since their last drink etc. And of course, anyone who can't take a drink and then put it down shouldn't be drinking.

As we are all aware, there are people who are alcoholics. The question is does that fact that some people cannot responsibly consume alcohol mean that no one can.

I'm with you on that.

My point of the "to become intoxicated" part means drinking with the sole purpose of becoming drunk. Altering ones state of mind, lowering inhibition; not to mention the dangers it puts to ones body. I can see a lot of difference between that, and responsible consumption. And of course, the obvious serious dangers of drinking and driving, etc.

I live in a community where it's not uncommon to consume tons of cheap beer that nobody likes just to get drunk. Surely that can't be good. And there's certainly scripture to back up rejecting parties existing with the intent to become drunk.
 
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circuitrider

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I

I live in a community where it's not uncommon to consume tons of cheap beer that nobody likes just to get drunk.

I never understood that. A 12 ounce beer is 4-5% ABV. Why do they want to drink that much water (about what cheap beer tastes like) to get 5% Alcohol? If you are foolish enough to be drinking just to get drunk then you think you'd want to buy something with more alcohol in it than bad tasting cheap beer?
 
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GraceSeeker

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I never understood that. A 12 ounce beer is 4-5% ABV. Why do they want to drink that much water (about what cheap beer tastes like) to get 5% Alcohol? If you are foolish enough to be drinking just to get drunk then you think you'd want to buy something with more alcohol in it than bad tasting cheap beer?


What is it you don't understand about the part of your post that I have highlighted?
 
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RomansFiveEight

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I never understood that. A 12 ounce beer is 4-5% ABV. Why do they want to drink that much water (about what cheap beer tastes like) to get 5% Alcohol? If you are foolish enough to be drinking just to get drunk then you think you'd want to buy something with more alcohol in it than bad tasting cheap beer?

On a given Friday night, if you head to the grocery store it's not uncommon to see cases of beer going down the checkout aisle. I don't get it either; seems like there are more fun things to do with your money.

My guess is, it prolongs the party. Instead of getting puke-drunk all at once, they party for a couple of hours, downing beers, and THEN pass out.

The most unfortunate reality of that is that every single year, with almost no exception, we lose at least one (if not 4, 5, or 6) high schooler to a drunk driving accident. Last year we lost 3 to drunk driving and nine to suicide. This is a hurting community and very much an image of why John Wesley came down so hard on those cheap gin distilleries; he sees what they were doing to his community.

Our most recent drunk driving related fatality was someone who had just graduated high school, who was drunk and ran off the road into a tree. But not before running over, and killing, a 13 year old boy waiting for the bus. The driver survived. Prosecutors office is seeking Murder in the Second Degree in addition to a host of other charges (Missouri allows death-as-a-result-of-a-felony, even if the death itself wasn't intentional, to be Murder 2, instead of Manslaughter. This statute was also successfully used when a young man brought his little brother with him to an armed robbery. Police returned fire when he shot at them, and ended up killing the little brother. The man who staged the robbery was convicted of his brothers murder; even though a police officer killed him. Because his felony was the cause of his brothers death). This puts life in prison on the table, and in fact makes it likely. So there we have two lives lost, effectively.
 
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RomansFiveEight

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What is the legal drinking age in your state? It is 21 where I am. That doesn't mean high schoolers can't get it. But it helps some.

It's 21. They don't have any problem getting it. They have older siblings, friends, etc., who are 21 who supply the booze. The police do raid the parties when they can. But even then it's just a "Minor in Possession" which is just a citation. I knew kids in high school who by the time we graduated, had accrued a dozen MIP's. It almost became a joke among some (How many MIP's are you up to now?)
 
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circuitrider

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When I was growing up the saying for conservative Christians was that "we don't smoke, drink or chew or run around with girls who do." Admirable but it doesn't have much to do with the gospel. In some ways when the Church doesn't focus on Discipleship we just become the good behavior club.
 
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GraceSeeker

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In that verse "wine" only means juice. Probably of a medicinal plant.

You're fooling yourself if you really believe that.

The word οινω (oino) that Paul used in writing to Timothy in telling him to drink wine is the very same word that Paul uses in writing to the Ephesians in telling them "Do not get drunk with wine." So, however you choose to translate it, it is possible or one to get drunk drinking it. One shouldn't get drunk, but the same "juice" (to use your word) that one can get drunk, so as to be accused of debauchery if one drinks too much of it, is also something that is recommended on another occasion. I would assume that it is going to be in the second instance drunk more in moderation. Thus, I submit it isn't the nature of the "juice" that is in question, but the wisdom of the drinker to know one's limits and not exceed them.
 
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