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Are Morals Relevant?

Holoman

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It's one thing to demonstrate or provide evidence for someone living, fighting, and dying, it's a completely other thing altogether to believe he is the son of Zeus. So why do you not accept the claim that Alexander is the son of Zeus, while still accepting most other Alexander claims? (Rhetorical question really) :)

The same goes for Jesus, and a resurrection claim.




So I guess this means the Roswell myth is not myth at all? Had the Roswell event happened before modern science was present to test and disprove the claim, then it may still be in circulation today.


How might one actually disprove a resurrection event 2K years ago, where one is required to visualize the event in real time for it to be validated?

On another note, when I was in eighth grade, I was friends with twins. They were moving away. One of my other friends was not aware they were moving. Me not thinking it through, I decided to play a practical joke on this friend. I told the twins to keep it a secret that they were moving. After the twins moved, I told my friend that they died in a car accident. Yes, this is horrible, and I regretted it later on. I obviously did not think that one through.


However, by the end of the day, I was walking home from school about 3 hours later. I heard a group of kids behind me discussing, in graphic detail, many events which happened to these twins in the 'car accident'. My initial story was quite generic. In a few hours time, a very elaborate story had ensued. This school comprised of about 1,200 students.


The resurrection story developed over years, decades, and centuries. You don't think there was ample time for such lore to develop?




(http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/killing-jesus/articles/how-did-the-apostles-die/):

'Jesus’ death on the cross, as described in the New Testament, has become one of the most famous events. But what happened to the 12 disciples who were his closest followers? Not as much information has survived about their fates, but here is what’s available from various sources, including the a) New Testament itself, b) apocryphal texts, c) early Christian historians, d) legends and lore.'


a) Using the New Testament, to prove the New Testament, is just as circular as using the Quran to validate their claimed Islamic martyrs located in Chapter 3, Verse 169 (and) Chapter 46, Verse 14.


b) Apocryphal means - '(of a story or statement) of doubtful authenticity, although widely circulated as being true.' - Oxford Dictionary


c) A Christian historian will be bias towards their belief, just like a Muslim historian would be towards their beliefs.


D) Legends and lore is most likely the main culprit, as with many growing tales over time. The New Testament Bible was written decades after such claimed events, by way of oral tradition and/or claimed inspiration from god. Repeated story telling leads to fabrication, addition, subtraction, tales, and manipulation. Claims to authors receiving inspiration from god, especially from the anonymous authored sources, rely upon nothing other than faith to be true. Faith is belief in place of, or instead of, evidence. Please also remember we do not even have the original manuscripts.

If willingness to die for belief is the meter stick for it's truth, then the clear winners are radical Islamic extremists.

I'm not really sure why you're on these forums asking these questions as you seem to have decided what you want to believe
 
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cvanwey

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I'm not really sure why you're on these forums asking these questions as you seem to have decided what you want to believe

How about instead just acknowledging that your provided 'evidence' does not appear to hold any water?

Belief is not decided, it's concluded, based upon evidence. And if you are undecided, and Jesus (postmortem) is true, and the undecided person dies...... No Heaven. Period.

Again, belief is neither moral nor immoral.

Are morals relevant, in regards to Christianity? I say they are not; but is certainly open for justification, if anyone should disagree, and wants to demonstrate otherwise.
 
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Holoman

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How about instead just acknowledging that your provided 'evidence' does not appear to hold any water?

Belief is not decided, it's concluded, based upon evidence. And if you are undecided, and Jesus (postmortem) is true, and the undecided person dies...... No Heaven. Period.

Again, belief is neither moral nor immoral.

Are morals relevant, in regards to Christianity? I say they are not; but is certainly open for justification, if anyone should disagree, and wants to demonstrate otherwise.

Belief is within the power of conscious choice, and I see you've made yours. It's quite clear you are not open to and/or unwilling to accept any arguments offered to you by people in this thread a priori, so I don't see the point in continuing.
 
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cvanwey

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Belief is within the power of conscious choice, and I see you've made yours. It's quite clear you are not open to and/or unwilling to accept any arguments offered to you by people in this thread a priori, so I don't see the point in continuing.

I disagree. It's just that stating people die for their beliefs and that the religion spread fairly quickly does not validate it's truth. Hence, two more reasons for my lack in belief, thus far.

If two such points validated truth, then the Muslims would be 'truer' in some respects.

At the end of the day, belief is the meter-stick for heaven or hell, via Christianity. This attribute is not a moral construct.

Thank you
 
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pat34lee

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Thank you for your response. However, I'm not sure if this answered my specific question/request?

If I happen to strive to practice 'ethical' and 'moral' foundations, which appear 'good', but think a resurrection never happened, but it turns out a Jesus resurrection did actually happen, do I go to heaven or hell?

Meaning, I try to be a 'good' person, as much as I can, but don't believe in this specific story. According to the Bible, I fry for eternity, right?

Hebrews 11:6
John 3:16-18
 
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Phil 1:21

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I'm not really sure why you're on these forums asking these questions as you seem to have decided what you want to believe
People who are lost often go to great lengths to attack those who are found.
 
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cvanwey

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Does belief fall within the realm of morality? yes or no?

Thomas Jefferson wrote an entire book noting the moral teachings of Jesus the Christ. Thomas Jefferson could have attempted to live his entire life abiding by as many moral teachings as possible. However, it is quite possible Jefferson did not accept that Jesus was a Messiah, as Jefferson rejected all of Jesus' claimed miracles. Based upon many verses in the Bible, without believing Jesus's resurrection (which denotes the method for salvation), one cannot enter into heaven. This appears to render morals irrelevant.
 
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Blood Bought 1953

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Does belief fall within the realm of morality? yes or no?

Thomas Jefferson wrote an entire book noting the moral teachings of Jesus the Christ. Thomas Jefferson could have attempted to live his entire life abiding by as many moral teachings as possible. However, it is quite possible Jefferson did not accept that Jesus was a Messiah, as Jefferson rejected all of Jesus' claimed miracles. Based upon many verses in the Bible, without believing Jesus's resurrection (which denotes the method for salvation), one cannot enter into heaven. This appears to render morals irrelevant.


Hell will be chock-full of “ moral “ people.Heaven will be populated by those who have one thing in common—- they were “ immoral “ and knew it.They saw their need for a Savior and turned to God with faith towards the Blood Of Christ.Faith in that Blood plus nothing is what saves.Morality is its own reward.....it does not save .
 
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cvanwey

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Hell will be chock-full of “ moral “ people.Heaven will be populated by those who have one thing in common—- they were “ immoral “ and knew it.They saw their need for a Savior and turned to God with faith towards the Blood Of Christ.Faith in that Blood plus nothing is what saves.Morality is its own reward.....it does not save .

So someone like Thomas Jefferson, whom choose to adopt the moral teachings of Jesus, but does not accept/believe that Jesus resurrected, does not go to heaven, right?

So belief in the supernatural becomes the deciding conclusion, right? And if someone states they admire someone in history, and even chooses to imulate their moral character and teachings, but do not think there exists evidence to substantiate a miracle (resurrection), this means their lack in belief keeps them from heaven, right?

Because if someone does not accept a resurrection claim, then by default, they reject a claim of a resurrection to save humanity from death and to provide salvation.

I just wanted to be fully clear...
 
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Blood Bought 1953

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So someone like Thomas Jefferson, whom choose to adopt the moral teachings of Jesus, but does not accept/believe that Jesus resurrected, does not go to heaven, right?

So belief in the supernatural becomes the deciding conclusion, right? And if someone states they admire someone in history, and even choose to imulate their moral character and teachings, but do not think there exists evidence to substantiate a miracle (resurrection), this means their believe keeps them from heaven, right?

Because if someone does not accept a resurrection claim, then by default, they reject a claim of a resurrection to save humanity from death and to provide salvation.

I just wanted to be fully clear...


Believing the Gospel found in 1cor15:1-4 and that ONLY is what saves in this present Age of Grace . The truth of the Gospel is “ hidden from those that perish”.God doesn’t care about mankind’s pitiful attempts to be “ moral”.If one chooses that route ,he must be 100% moral all the time—- a standard that man can’t reach—- not even Thomas Jefferson .Or you and I.
 
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cvanwey

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Believing the Gospel found in 1cor15:1-4 and that ONLY is what saves in this present Age of Grace . The truth of the Gospel is “ hidden from those that perish”.God doesn’t care about mankind’s pitiful attempts to be “ moral”.If one chooses that route ,he must be 100% moral all the time—- a standard that man can’t reach—- not even Thomas Jefferson .Or you and I.

I think we are both trying to convey differing conclusions.... So let me clarify a bit further :) Your provided verses state:


'For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance" that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,'

So belief in a supernatural claim is what begins to validate entrance to heaven, right? So without accepting this very specific claim (via a resurrection), nothing else then really matters, right? This individual is doomed.

My point is that if one states they do not have enough evidence to accept such a supernatural claim, then the rest does not matter. Morals are then irrelevant in any and every capacity, right? Meaning, believing a supernatural claim becomes the catalyst, or the very beginning point between heaven, and not heaven, right?
 
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Blood Bought 1953

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I think we are both trying to convey differing conclusions.... So let me clarify a bit further :) Your provided verses state:

'For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance" that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,'

So belief in a supernatural claim is what begins to validate entrance to heaven, right? So without accepting this very specific claim (via a resurrection), nothing else then really matters, right? This individual is doomed.

My point is that if one states they do not have enough evidence to accept such a supernatural claim, then the rest does not matter. Morals are then irrelevant in any and every capacity, right? Meaning, believing a supernatural claim becomes the catalyst, or the very beginning point between heaven, and not heaven, right?

Morals are not irrelevant in every capacity . A moral life is indicative of wisdom and you will be rewarded for that in this lifetime.Visit any jail to see where immorality can lead.Morality is a great thing—- strive for it! Just remember that God is not looking for the moral man.The largest content of the Bible was written by three murderers.All saved. By faith.Plus nothing.
 
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cvanwey

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Morals are not irrelevant in every capacity . A moral life is indicative of wisdom and you will be rewarded for that in this lifetime.Visit any jail to see where immorality can lead.Morality is a great thing—- strive for it! Just remember that God is not looking for the moral man.The largest content of the Bible was written by three murderers.All saved. By faith.Plus nothing.

You still have not answered my question though? Is one required to believe in a supernatural claim, (a resurrection claim)? If yes, then the moral aspect then becomes the irrelevant part ('good', 'bad' or 'ugly').

If Thomas Jefferson did not accept a resurrection claim as factual, does he go to heaven? According to the Bible, no. So why do morals even matter? Without the belief in a very specific supernatural claim, NO amount of 'good' becomes applicable.
 
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Holoman

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Does belief fall within the realm of morality? yes or no?

Thomas Jefferson wrote an entire book noting the moral teachings of Jesus the Christ. Thomas Jefferson could have attempted to live his entire life abiding by as many moral teachings as possible. However, it is quite possible Jefferson did not accept that Jesus was a Messiah, as Jefferson rejected all of Jesus' claimed miracles. Based upon many verses in the Bible, without believing Jesus's resurrection (which denotes the method for salvation), one cannot enter into heaven. This appears to render morals irrelevant.

Morals aren't irrelevant. If you reject Jesus' penal substitution then you will be judged on the good and evil you have done. And the evil you have done will warrant punishment.

If you have done no evil then you don't need to worry, but we all know such people don't exist.
 
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Blood Bought 1953

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You still have not answered my question though? Is one required to believe in a supernatural claim, (a resurrection claim)? If yes, then the moral aspect then becomes the irrelevant part ('good', 'bad' or 'ugly').

If Thomas Jefferson did not accept a resurrection claim as factual, does he go to heaven? According to the Bible, no. So why do morals even matter? Without the belief in a very specific supernatural claim, NO amount of 'good' becomes applicable.

To answer your question—— yes.If Thomas Jefferson did not believe in the divinity and the resurrection of Jesus Christ he was lost.No different from anybody else.Good morals will lead for a better Earthly existence .No amount of “ good” is good enough.The standard is perfection.The answer to this dilemma is receiving a free gift.Its that easy.
 
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George the Intercessor

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Even if I attempt to abide by 'good' moral standings, to the best of my abilities... Meaning, don't kill, rape, steal, lie, murder, trespass, be kind to others, etc...

But I do not believe in a risen Jesus, because one cannot choose what to believe; and my needed evidence for belief appears lacking.... According to Christian theology, I will rot in hell.

So tell me how morals are actually even relevant, in regards to Christianity? It appears belief is the only driving source.

Thanks

It isn't about being moral to the best of your ability, rather it's about your willingness to partner with God. I believe it is vital for all humans to partner with God in everyday life. Of course, one can strive in his own effort to be moral, but in the end, it's not good for a man to be independent from God. Live by faith (not mere belief) in God, not by self-effort. Anyone who dares to live according to the law with their own effort, will fail to live by the law. Remember, no one is good but God. And the greatest commandments say: Love the Lord with all your heart and love others as yourself.
If one can't love and trust God, then he/she cannot effectively love others; thus, failing to live in moral truth.
 
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George the Intercessor

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It's not merely that one needs to believe that the resurrection happened, but also one must surrender to Christ to obtain Jesus' Blood, so all heavenly blessings can be attained and even utilized to edify the earth. Believing and receiving the Blood from Jesus is an act of trusting in God.
If Christ was not risen from the grave, then Christianity would've died. After all, when Jesus was physically absent for a small time (before resurrection day), the disciples returned to their regular lives in grief.
 
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cvanwey

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It isn't about being moral to the best of your ability, rather it's about your willingness to partner with God. I believe it is vital for all humans to partner with God in everyday life. Of course, one can strive in his own effort to be moral, but in the end, it's not good for a man to be independent from God. Live by faith (not mere belief) in God, not by self-effort. Anyone who dares to live according to the law with their own effort, will fail to live by the law. Remember, no one is good but God. And the greatest commandments say: Love the Lord with all your heart and love others as yourself.
If one can't love and trust God, then he/she cannot effectively love others; thus, failing to live in moral truth.

This response appears patently false. If I've honestly never received any contact or a response from such a stated God, in which I prayed to for over 30+ years, how am I able to 'honestly' assume this agent actually exists???

Even more-so, how would one 'honestly' state they love this unverified agent above and beyond anything else?

You are also false, when you state one does not have the ability to love others, without loving 'God,' unless you are redefining the conceptual human invented word 'love'.

love - 'an intense feeling of deep affection' (or) 'feel a deep romantic or sexual attachment to (someone)'. - google.com

Furthermore, couldn't any opposing religion, in which you most likely fully reject, also use faith with as much veracity as you use it? So is faith really an objective meter-stick for truth in any real capacity?

And again, my OP stands... Morals are irrelevant (according to scripture). Unless again, the definition of morality is redefined drastically to now mean - 'without belief/faith, you cannot get into heaven.'


 
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RDKirk

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The point is that if you are not doing those good acts through love of God you are doing them through love of self; and so will "rape, steal, lie, murder, trespass" etc if you deem it to your benefit (and are deceiving yourself if you think otherwise, because you are denying that the you are living a life in worship of self).

Something I learned in my time overseas to two or three Third World nations is that if there is an immoral act I've never considered (never felt temptation) committing, it's only because it's never been easy enough and cheap enough.

Get into a position where an immorality becomes really cheap, really easy, and clearly without social consequences, and it's amazing what kinds of temptations come knocking.
 
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