Are Jesuits Fundamentalists?

[BobRyan]

I think Pope Clement XIV further proves your point.

 

[GoingByzantine]

Bob, I believe you should apologize to every Catholic on this website for posting blatantly false information as you have in post 24.

Apologize, and we shall forgive.

 

[pdudgeon]

When we speak of 'Fundamentalists" in general - across all major religions - including Islam and Christianity - we almost never mean "just some protestant groups" - right?




Fundamentalists in all religions - tend to be "down the line intolerant of dissent" to some degree -- agreed?


You have a version of "Good fundamentalism" that is specific to protestantism - which I agree with... but in general when speaking broadly of "fundamentalism" across all major religions - it is the sort of thing that is over-the-top zealous, and intolerant of dissent on certain points.

that last would probably be the descriptor that a person of the liberal persuasion would agree with.
I'm not that person.

 

[Albion]

"All of us are quite aware of, and deeply worried by, the disturbing social and political situation of the world today. Our world is increasingly a place of violent conflict, hatred and brutal atrocities, committed even in the name of God and of religion. We know that no religion is immune from forms of individual delusion or ideological extremism. This means that we must be especially attentive to every type of fundamentalism, whether religious or of any other kind.

I am just saying that the meaning he is giving to the term - fits the Jesuits.

Using the word in that sense, yes, it probably does fit.

I'm just one who dislikes the misuse of words for the purpose of creating a certain unfavorable impression, and that's something we a see a lot of in politics these days, as with this example.

 

[heatedmonk]

I enjoyed the movie "Elizabeth". Great snip there brinny. Hard to imagine today's James Bond had such a beginning as that. 3:58 is a great scene in slow motion.

That really does put a spin on Pope Francis. I'd forgotten about the Jesuit depiction in that movie. Combine that with the very well articulated description that Albion shared with us and it becomes very interesting as to Francis' making his appearance , a political one at that, in America and at this particular time when we're marking a history that is moving toward the future and away from God.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob, I believe you should apologize to every Catholic on this website for posting blatantly false information as you have in post 24.

Apologize, and we shall forgive.

That was not a quote of me - it was a quote of EWTN and other sources.

And I gave the link for it.

"IF" we were all Jesuits we would all know if what EWTN said and what other sources have said in that regard are in fact what we were saying behind closed doors in those cases.

My post simply asks the question.

 

[SkyWriting]

That sounds like they are fiercely loyal to the Pope, even if the Pope may be misguided and saying something is the opposite of reality.

It's pretty rare for anybody to speak opposite of reality.
Unless the plan is to decieve, people speak what they believe,
usually to the exclusion of all others opinions.

 

[brinny]

It's pretty rare for anybody to speak opposite of reality.
Unless the plan is to decieve, people speak what they believe,
usually to the exclusion of all others opinions.

Yes, interesting..

i was just sorta thinkin' out loud on how it sounds like the Jesuit priests are fiercely loyal to the Pope.

 

[SkyWriting]

Yes, interesting..

i was just sorta thinkin' out loud on how it sounds like the Jesuit priests are fiercely loyal to the Pope.

And I was responding that the opinion of the Pope often angers some section of Catholicism, somewhere.

 

[brinny]

And I was responding that the opinion of the Pope often angers some section of Catholicism, somewhere.

oh, ok, how does it anger them?

 

[GoingByzantine]

That was not a quote of me - it was a quote of EWTN and other sources.

And I gave the link for it.

"IF" we were all Jesuits we would all know if what EWTN said and what other sources have said in that regard are in fact what we were saying behind closed doors in those cases.

My post simply asks the question.

It is not "a quote of EWTN", Bob. You know that as well as I do!!

That link you posted is to a Question and Answer page (like Yahoo Answers); some random person asked if the oath was real, and a Catholic theologian said it was not. You of course conveniently left out the part where the Catholic theologian said the oath was a farce. How do you answer for that Bob?

 

[BobRyan]

http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage_print.asp?number=320952&language=en

When I click on the EWTN link that I gave you in that previous post -- I see this -- as for why they are repeating it - as it appears to come from a questioner to EWTN - you may ask them.

=======================================================

[The following is the text of the Jesuit Extreme Oath of Induction as recorded in the Journals of the 62nd Congress, 3rd Session, of the United States Congressional Record (House Calendar No. 397, Report No. 1523, 15 February, 1913, pp. 3215-3216), from which it was subsequently torn out. The Oath is also quoted by Charles Didier in his book Subterranean Rome (New York, 1843), translated from the French original. Dr. Alberto Rivera, who escaped from the Jesuit Order in 1967, confirms that the induction ceremony and the text of the Jesuit Oath which he took were identical to what we have cited below. – A. N.]

When a Jesuit of the minor rank is to be elevated to command, he is conducted into the Chapel of the Convent of the Order, where there are only three others present, the principal or Superior standing in front of the altar. On either side stands a monk, one of whom holds a banner of yellow and white, which are the Papal colours, and the other a black banner with a dagger and red cross above a skull and crossbones, with the word INRI, and below them the words IUSTUM NECAR REGES IMPIUS. The meaning of which is: It is just to exterminate or annihilate impious or heretical Kings, Governments, or Rulers.

Upon the floor is a red cross at which the postulant or candidate kneels. The Superior hands him a small black crucifix, which he takes in his left hand and presses to his heart, and the Superior at the same time presents to him a dagger, which he grasps by the blade and holds the point against his heart, the Superior still holding it by the hilt, and thus addresses the postulant:

(The Superior speaks

My son, heretofore you have been taught to act the dissembler: among Roman Catholics to be a Roman Catholic, and to be a spy even among your own brethren; to believe no man, to trust no man. Among the Reformers, to be a Reformer; among the Huguenots, to be a Huguenot; among the Calvinists, to be a Calvinist; among other Protestants, generally to be a Protestant; and obtaining their confidence, to seek even to preach from their pulpits, and to denounce with all the vehemence in your nature our Holy Religion and the Pope; and even to descend so low as to become a Jew among Jews, that you might be enabled to gather together all information for the benefit of your Order as a faithful soldier of the Pope. You have been taught to plant insidiously the seeds of jealousy and hatred between communities, provinces, states that were at peace, and to incite them to deeds of blood, involving them in war with each other, and to create revolutions and civil wars in countries that were independent and prosperous, cultivating the arts and the sciences and enjoying the blessings of peace; to take sides with the combatants and to act secretly with your brother Jesuit, who might be engaged on the other side, but openly opposed to that with which you might be connected, only that the Church might be the gainer in the end, in the conditions fixed in the treaties for peace and that the end justifies the means. You have been taught your duty as a spy, to gather all statistics, facts and information in your power from every source; to ingratiate yourself into the confidence of the family circle of Protestants and heretics of every class and character, as well as that of the merchant, the banker, the lawyer, among the schools and universities, in parliaments and legislatures, and the judiciaries and councils of state, and to be all things to all men, for the Pope's sake, whose servants we are unto death. You have received all your instructions heretofore as a novice, a neophyte, and have served as co-adjurer, confessor and priest, but you have not yet been invested with all that is necessary to command in the Army of Loyola in the service of the Pope. You must serve the proper time as the instrument and executioner as directed by your superiors; for none can command here who has not consecrated his labours with the blood of the heretic; for "without the shedding of blood no man can be saved". Therefore, to fit yourself for your work and make your own salvation sure, you will, in addition to your former oath of obedience to your order and allegiance to the Pope, repeat after me:

(Text of the Oath

I_______________ , now in the presence of Almighty God, the blessed Virgin Mary, the blessed St. John the Baptist, the Holy Apostles, St. Peter and St. Paul, and all the saints, sacred host of Heaven, and to you, my Ghostly Father, the superior general of the Society of Jesus, founded by St. Ignatius Loyola, in the pontification of Paul the Third, and continued to the present, do by the womb of the Virgin, the matrix of God, and the rod of Jesus Christ, declare and swear that His Holiness, the Pope, is Christ's Vice-Regent and is the true and only head of the Catholic or Universal Church throughout the earth; and that by the virtue of the keys of binding and loosing given to His Holiness by my Saviour, Jesus Christ, he hath power to depose heretical Kings, Princes, States, Commonwealths, and Governments, and they may be safely destroyed. Therefore to the utmost of my power I will defend this doctrine and His Holiness's

 

[GoingByzantine]

http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage_print.asp?number=320952&language=en

When I click on the EWTN link I see this --

=======================================================

[The following is the text of the Jesuit Extreme Oath of Induction as recorded in the Journals of the 62nd Congress, 3rd Session, of the United States Congressional Record (House Calendar No. 397, Report No. 1523, 15 February, 1913, pp. 3215-3216), from which it was subsequently torn out. The Oath is also quoted by Charles Didier in his book Subterranean Rome (New York, 1843), translated from the French original. Dr. Alberto Rivera, who escaped from the Jesuit Order in 1967, confirms that the induction ceremony and the text of the Jesuit Oath which he took were identical to what we have cited below. – A. N.]

When a Jesuit of the minor rank is to be elevated to command, he is conducted into the Chapel of the Convent of the Order, where there are only three others present, the principal or Superior standing in front of the altar. On either side stands a monk, one of whom holds a banner of yellow and white, which are the Papal colours, and the other a black banner with a dagger and red cross above a skull and crossbones, with the word INRI, and below them the words IUSTUM NECAR REGES IMPIUS. The meaning of which is: It is just to exterminate or annihilate impious or heretical Kings, Governments, or Rulers.

Upon the floor is a red cross at which the postulant or candidate kneels. The Superior hands him a small black crucifix, which he takes in his left hand and presses to his heart, and the Superior at the same time presents to him a dagger, which he grasps by the blade and holds the point against his heart, the Superior still holding it by the hilt, and thus addresses the postulant:

(The Superior speaks

My son, heretofore you have been taught to act the dissembler: among Roman Catholics to be a Roman Catholic, and to be a spy even among your own brethren; to believe no man, to trust no man. Among the Reformers, to be a Reformer; among the Huguenots, to be a Huguenot; among the Calvinists, to be a Calvinist; among other Protestants, generally to be a Protestant; and obtaining their confidence, to seek even to preach from their pulpits, and to denounce...

Scroll down to the bottom of the EWTN page and you will see this:

Answer by Dr. William Carroll on 05-22-2002:
You are spreading lies and calumny. There is not and never was any such ceremony as you are describing. The Jesuits simply swear to be always faithful to the Pope, not to exterminate anybody. - Dr. Carroll

The Heading of the page also makes it clear that somebody is asking a question:

Question from Andy Doria2 on 05-19-2002:
Dear Dr. Carroll,
I was told by a Protestant friend of mine that the following is the Jesuit order's oath.
I find it hard to believe. Can you shed some light on this.

 

[SkyWriting]

oh, ok, how does it anger them?

Usually people feel anger that power is used to influence their lives and they are not represented.
This may be the case.

 

[brinny]

Usually people feel anger that power is used to influence their lives and they are not represented.
This may be the case.

Yes, i can understand that

 

[Erose]

That was not a quote of me - it was a quote of EWTN and other sources.

And I gave the link for it.

"IF" we were all Jesuits we would all know if what EWTN said and what other sources have said in that regard are in fact what we were saying behind closed doors in those cases.

My post simply asks the question.

The quote was from a question by a poster, which Dr. Carroll rebutted. You really need to read your sources.

 

[Erose]

Yes, interesting..

i was just sorta thinkin' out loud on how it sounds like the Jesuit priests are fiercely loyal to the Pope.

If only all of them were. The Jesuit order is not as it used to be.

 

[brinny]

If only all of them were. The Jesuit order is not as it used to be.

how so?

 

[Erose]

how so?

The Jesuit order is not as Bob wants it to be. Within the order like pretty much every demographic within a Church, you have progressive and orthodox and conservative elements. The Jesuit order has its fair share of progressives within it.

 

[BobRyan]

The Jesuit order is not as Bob wants it to be. Within the order like pretty much every demographic within a Church, you have progressive and orthodox and conservative elements. The Jesuit order has its fair share of progressives within it.

Pope Clement XIV said it was not as he wanted it to be.

They take vows of poverty and of celibacy - which makes them "more fundamentalist" by many standards - than most. What is more -

Ignatius wrote the Jesuit Constitutions, adopted in 1554, which created a monarchical organization and stressed absolute self-abnegation and obedience to pope and superiors (perinde ac [si] cadaver [essent], " like a corpse", as Ignatius put it).

Ignatius of Loyola (1970). The constitutions of the society of Jesus. Translated by George E. Ganss. Institute of Jesuit Sources 249 when following the orders of the Jesuit superior the Jesuit priest was " as if he were a lifeless body which allows itself to be carried to any place and to be treated in any manner desired".

What regime on planet earth would not proclaim devotees to such an extreme - to be "fundamentalist" and then some???!!
See -The Corpse-Like Obedience Of The Jesuits - Pamphlet

Also Facts of Faith - Page 276 - Google Books Result
"It is this corpse-like obedience, required of all its members, that has made the Jesuits such a power in the world."

normally we do not think of corpses as prime examples of obeying whatever we command - since they... don't move. The point however is not that Jesuits don't move - it is that they are supposedly dead to re-thinking second-guessing re-considering the orders they are given.

Extreme fundamentalism --- by every measure when talking about world religions and the popular definition for "fundamentalism" in that context.

By contrast many Christian fundamentalists like to think of ourselves as those who Believe the bible and apply the test of "sola scriptura" to all doctrine and tradition. Each one accountable directly to God and not in the habbit of supposing some earthly imperfect administrator will "take care of all the details" for us.