Are Gifts Designed For The Body Of Christ Sign Gifts?

[ARBITER01]

All Luke did was to record these events in his journal. He was merely giving an account of what happened, and wouldn't have thought that any teaching was to be given through what he wrote. Because we don't have any of these people present now, it is very hard to answer your question without getting into guess work.

Is that section not good for doctrine, reproof, and correction as any other?

 

[Hidden In Him]

Well I thought I did, but let me restate my answer to you on any sort of foretelling example that The Holy Spirit does through us,... it is by the gift of wisdom.

Any prophet that uttered words by The Holy Spirit, or were inspired by and told to write them down, that were clearly predictive/foretelling in nature, did so by the gift of wisdom. The reasons why I state such is because,..

1) The gift of prophesying is clearly defined already in 1Cor 14:3, and it doesn't list a revelatory function in the definition.

2) The word of knowledge only deals with current and past events, not futuristic ones.

The gift that has the actual possibility to be used in this revelatory capacity would be the word of wisdom.

Arbiter, what you have to explain is why the Lord Himself called the predictions made in the Jeremiah passage "prophecy." If the Lord is calling it prophecy and you are calling it word of wisdom, your position contradicts the word.

Or,.......the gift of prophesying didn't have that revelatory function and it took Agabus to deliver the message utilizing the proper gift.

If the daughters were "prophesying" but speaking only comfort and encouragement while Agabus came speaking a prophetic warning, this creates what in scholarship is referred to as an unnatural reading. You have to read into the text to make it work. There's nothing negative stated about the four daughters. In fact, what is stated is purely positive. Yet if they were speaking nothing but encouragement and comfort while Agabus came speaking foreboding words of Paul's impending death, SOMEONE was off somewhere. If the daughters were prophesying and Agabus was called a prophet, both were engaging in the same gift here, yet you have them speaking two different messages. IMO, any attempts to differentiate between the two as being two different "gifts" is arbitrary.

τούτῳ δὲ ἦσαν θυγατέρες τέσσαρες παρθένοι προφητεύουσαι. ἐπιμενόντων δὲ ἡμέρας πλείους κατῆλθέν τις ἀπὸ τῆς Ἰουδαίας προφήτης ὀνόματι Αγαβος,

 

[ARBITER01]

Arbiter, what you have to explain is why the Lord Himself called the predictions made in the Jeremiah passage "prophecy." If the Lord is calling it prophecy and you are calling it word of wisdom, your position contradicts the word.


If the daughters were "prophesying" but speaking only comfort and encouragement while Agabus came speaking a prophetic warning, this creates what in scholarship is referred to as an unnatural reading. You have to read into the text to make it work. There's nothing negative stated about the four daughters. In fact, what is stated is purely positive. Yet if they were speaking nothing but encouragement and comfort while Agabus came speaking foreboding words of Paul's impending death, SOMEONE was off somewhere. If the daughters were prophesying and Agabus was called a prophet, both were engaging in the same gift here, and any attempts to differentiate between the two would be arbitrary.

τούτῳ δὲ ἦσαν θυγατέρες τέσσαρες παρθένοι προφητεύουσαι. ἐπιμενόντων δὲ ἡμέρας πλείους κατῆλθέν τις ἀπὸ τῆς Ἰουδαίας προφήτης ὀνόματι Αγαβος,

You're approaching this with the idea that "to prophesy" in the general sense always means to predict, that's untrue.

The specific gift of "prophesying" identified over in 1 Cor 14:1 does not predict. We can't add that to it like many people on here seem to be doing because it is not stated.

1 Cor 14:3 doesn't say "Edification, Revelation, and comfort.

Btw,..the reason GOD killed his own prophet Hananiah was because he attributed his own words as prophecy from The Holy Spirit when in fact they arose out of his own spirit.

When we are filled with His Spirit and receive His gifts, we have the capacity to step out and operate a few of these gifts by our own faith. They arise out of our own spirit, not The Holy Spirit. I, as well as many other people, do that all the time with tongues. Some people can do that with the gift of prophesying. I even met a person whose gift of interpretation was able to be stepped out by his own faith.

This is the problem. Are the words from The Holy Spirit or are they from their own spirit? Are people misusing the gift of prophesying and claiming their predictions to be from GOD??

I say so, and with recent failure events by so many folks in our church, I feel quite justified in that statement.

 

[Hidden In Him]

When we are filled with His Spirit and receive His gifts, we have the capacity to step out and operate a few of these gifts by our own faith. They arise out of our own spirit, not The Holy Spirit. I, as well as many other people, do that all the time with tongues. Some people can do that with the gift of prophesying. I even met a person whose gift of interpretation was able to be stepped out by his own faith.

This is the problem. Are the words from The Holy Spirit or are they from their own spirit? Are people misusing the gift of prophesying and claiming the words to be from GOD??

I say so, and with recent failure events by so many folks in our church, I feel quite justified in that statement.

Well this I certainly agree with.

You're approaching this with the idea that "to prophesy" in the general sense always means to predict, that's untrue.

The specific gift of "prophesying" identified over in 1 Cor 14:1 does not predict. We can't add that to it like many people here seem to be doing because it is not stated.

1 Cor 14:3 doesn't say "Edification, Revelation, and comfort.

Understand, I'm a stickler for two things: Interpreting a verse in light of its context, and establishing a doctrine in light of the totality of scripture. We do agree that prophecy is not always negative or foreboding; sometimes it speaks encouragement and comfort. But the two texts we've been discussing are of the other category; both speak predictively of coming hardships and sufferings.

Off to bed, but I'll talk with you tomorrow maybe. Have a great night, and be blessed,
Hidden In Him

 

[ARBITER01]

Understand, I'm a stickler for two things: Interpreting a verse in light of its context, and establishing a doctrine in light of the totality of scripture. We do agree that prophecy is not always negative or foreboding; sometimes it speaks encouragement and comfort. But the two texts we've been discussing are of the other category; both speak predictively of coming hardships and sufferings.

Off to bed, but I'll talk with you tomorrow maybe. Have a great night, and be blessed,
Hidden In Him

You're not doing anything different than most people in this thread, you're just being careful. I'm being a stickler for what scripture actually says because we have to be very careful to rightly divide the word of GOD.

For instance,.... tongues and interpretation are equal to the gift of prophesying in the corporate setting according to scripture,...

1Co 14:5 Now I would have you all speak with tongues, but rather that ye should prophesy: and greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

OK,........do I run out and speak in tongues and interpret my message to people and claim prediction just like a Prophet? Tongues with interpretation provides "edification, encouragement, and comfort" just like the gift of prophesying does,.......so am I justified in claiming prediction this way also??

The answer is no to anyone watching.

I have to be careful that I'm not misusing scripture to my personal advantage, and ultimately to my detriment in the end.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Is that section not good for doctrine, reproof, and correction as any other?

When Paul wrote about Scripture being inspired of God for doctrine, reproof, and correction, he was talking about the Old Testament Scriptures that he had available to him. New Testament Scriptures were not added at that stage. So we need to make that clear and not read into anything that Paul was not aware of and never said.

However, Luke did not intend his journal to be a doctrinal document, although it does contain many important and pertinent principles that we have to take notice of; but Luke's writing must be balanced with the rest of the New Testament, because he was not an Apostle of Christ, and therefore his journal was not inspired in the same way as Jesus' words in the Gospels, or the Apostles' teaching in their letters.

This does not mean that we ignore Acts, but we need to view it as an historical document which contains many examples of how the Holy Spirit moved in the early church and in Peter's and Paul's ministries. But I wouldn't build a foundational doctrine on Acts without studying it along with the Apostles' letters and what Jesus taught in the four Gospels.

For example: Paul opposed a false prophet who was trying to stop a Roman official receiving the gospel, and the false prophet was struck blind. Just because it happened with Paul in Acts, it doesn't mean that we can have those who oppose the Gospel struck blind as well. Also, just because Paul got a vision from a man from Macedonia saying "Come over and help us", doesn't mean that we have to go rushing off the Macedonia in Greece to preach the Gospel.

But we do take notice of the group of false apostles from Jerusalem arriving at the Gentile churches trying to turn them into the first century equivalent of SDAs by telling them they need to be circumcised and comply with the Mosaic Law. Also, when someone starts loudly advertising someone's ministry and pointing people to the preachers, according to Paul's experience in Acts, it is most likely to be a demon behind the advertising. That puts the cat among the pigeons for many mega-churches that has big placards containing pictures of the big-name ministries running them. You have to wonder what spirit is behind that advertising!

 

[ARBITER01]

When Paul wrote about Scripture being inspired of God for doctrine, reproof, and correction, he was talking about the Old Testament Scriptures that he had available to him. New Testament Scriptures were not added at that stage. So we need to make that clear and not read into anything that Paul was not aware of and never said.

However, Luke did not intend his journal to be a doctrinal document, although it does contain many important and pertinent principles that we have to take notice of; but Luke's writing must be balanced with the rest of the New Testament, because he was not an Apostle of Christ, and therefore his journal was not inspired in the same way as Jesus' words in the Gospels, or the Apostles' teaching in their letters.

This does not mean that we ignore Acts, but we need to view it as an historical document which contains many examples of how the Holy Spirit moved in the early church and in Peter's and Paul's ministries. But I wouldn't build a foundational doctrine on Acts without studying it along with the Apostles' letters and what Jesus taught in the four Gospels.

For example: Paul opposed a false prophet who was trying to stop a Roman official receiving the gospel, and the false prophet was struck blind. Just because it happened with Paul in Acts, it doesn't mean that we can have those who oppose the Gospel struck blind as well. Also, just because Paul got a vision from a man from Macedonia saying "Come over and help us", doesn't mean that we have to go rushing off the Macedonia in Greece to preach the Gospel.

But we do take notice of the group of false apostles from Jerusalem arriving at the Gentile churches trying to turn them into the first century equivalent of SDAs by telling them they need to be circumcised and comply with the Mosaic Law. Also, when someone starts loudly advertising someone's ministry and pointing people to the preachers, according to Paul's experience in Acts, it is most likely to be a demon behind the advertising. That puts the cat among the pigeons for many mega-churches that has big placards containing pictures of the big-name ministries running them. You have to wonder what spirit is behind that advertising!

Meh,......

I appreciate that you wrote all that out Oscarr,.... but I think it is much simpler than that. It is an account of the acts of The Holy Spirit, and just as important as any other account we have from our 1st Century Believers.

There are many people that try to fault Paul's writings because they only want to trust in the words of Jesus, or they have issues over Paul denouncing the law of Moses, but the body of Christ would be nowhere if GOD had not chose Paul to lay out the principles of how the church was to be organized and function.

I view what Luke did in his accounts as just as important.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

You're not doing anything different than most people in this thread, you're just being careful. I'm being a stickler for what scripture actually says because we have to be very careful to rightly divide the word of GOD.

For instance,.... tongues and interpretation are equal to the gift of prophesying in the corporate setting according to scripture,...

1Co 14:5 Now I would have you all speak with tongues, but rather that ye should prophesy: and greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

OK,........do I run out and speak in tongues and interpret my message to people and claim prediction just like a Prophet? Tongues with interpretation provides "edification, encouragement, and comfort" just like the gift of prophesying does,.......so am I justified in claiming prediction this way also??

The answer is no to anyone watching.

I have to be careful that I'm not misusing scripture to my personal advantage, and ultimately to my detriment in the end.

My view of tongues/interpretation being equal to prophecy, is that the tongues is intercession in the Spirit for the prophetic word to come forth, and resulting interpretation is the outcome, and releases more prophetic words to come forth in the meeting. This is what I have seen: Someone gives a tongues message, someone else gives the interpretation, then two or three others give prophetic words. In this way, a tongues message can change the course of a meeting to outcomes not planned for, but amazing.

 

[topher694]

Understand, I'm a stickler for two things: Interpreting a verse in light of its context, and establishing a doctrine in light of the totality of scripture.

Very wise approach and more uncommon than it should be.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Meh,......

I appreciate that you wrote all that out Oscarr,.... but I think it is much simpler than that. It is an account of the acts of The Holy Spirit, and just as important as any other account we have from our 1st Century Believers.

There are many people that try to fault Paul's writings because they only want to trust in the words of Jesus, or they have issues over Paul denouncing the law of Moses, but the body of Christ would be nowhere if GOD had not chose Paul to lay out the principles of how the church was to be organized and function.

I view what Luke did in his accounts as just as important.

I'm certainly not putting Paul down in favour of Jesus. Jesus' ministry was to unconverted Jews, and even His 12 disciples had difficulty understand things He taught. When Jesus said that He was going to send the Comforter to lead them into all truth, He did just that by getting Paul converted, filling him with the Spirit, and giving him three years of revelations while he was in Asia, before he and Barnabas were released into ministry through a prophetic word at Antioch.

Therefore, Paul's ministry supplemented and extended Jesus' teaching through the on-going revelatory and inspirational material provided to Paul, Peter, John, Jude, and the Apostle to the Hebrews. In fact, Jesus' teaching continued for the church through the Apostles. Therefore I accept Paul's teaching as Jesus' teaching through the Holy Spirit in Paul.

Paul said, "Follow me as I follow Christ". He did not say that for nothing. He knew that much of what He taught was given to him by Jesus Himself. I think it was Paul who said that we [including himself] have nothing except what has been given to us by the Lord. Therefore, all his teaching was directly given to him by the Lord Jesus, and this is why his teaching is as much Scripture as the words of Jesus in the Gospels.

 

[ARBITER01]

My view of tongues/interpretation being equal to prophecy, is that the tongues is intercession in the Spirit for the prophetic word to come forth, and resulting interpretation is the outcome, and releases more prophetic words to come forth in the meeting. This is what I have seen: Someone gives a tongues message, someone else gives the interpretation, then two or three others give prophetic words. In this way, a tongues message can change the course of a meeting to outcomes not planned for, but amazing.

Oscarr, in my opinion,.... I view tongues with interpretation as being just a little better than the gift of prophesying.

If the message being given is by utterance of The Holy Spirit, there will be a tangible edification to your spirit during the tongues message and another edification during the interpretation, whereas you receive only one during the gift of prophesying.

 

[topher694]

Maybe this will be of some value:

A word of Knowledge reveals God's mind. His knowledge about us, and the world around us.

A word of Wisdom reveals God's will. Not what will happen in the future, but His will for our future. If we reject the word it doesn't change that the word was His will

Prophecy reveals God's heart. Because God's heart for us often contains elements of His mind and His will for us, prophecy will often carry with it words of wisdom and knowledge. When this happens it is still prophecy.

Example: A word of knowledge could be: "I've called you to be a school teacher." However, the recipient doesn't have any aspirations for such a thing. Therefore the prophetic word delivers the word of wisdom but also some words of knowledge that the minister could not have known, "I was even preparing you at a young age when you would teach your younger brother math. And later at youth group when you were asked to mentor the new kids". These things are delivered in a prophetic word along with encouragement and exhortation in order to reveal God's heart, because what God is trying to express is that you may not realize it yet, but you've been created to do that job, you're going to be great at it and you are going to love it... THAT is God's heart that cannot be revealed with a word of Wisdom alone, yet the entire spoken dialog would still be a prophetic word.

That's what the prophetic is for. If it came to tell us everything we already knew, why would we need it in the first place? Now it should still witness to our Spirit and it should never violate the written word.

This is the example we see in scripture over and over and over, with all sorts of different, wonderful flavors, but always expressing God's heart. Some people will always nitpick and dissect 1 Cor 12 & 14 to understand the meaning of the scriptures and yet mostly ignore the numerous examples throughout scripture. The examples in the word are scripture too!

When Paul was writing to the Corinthians he was writing to a immature, carnal church that needed their hand held. This is why we don't see "Word of Wisdom" mentioned by name other places in scripture. The gift is there, but for mature believers walking with the Holy Spirit it's simply called "the prophetic", and guess what, that's ok! The important part of flowing in the gifts is that we express God's heart to the recipient(s) (this is why 1 Cor 13 is sandwiched between 12 & 14). When flowing in the true gift of prophecy what is needed will come forth, God's heart will be revealed, and definitions don't matter nearly as much as people's lives being transformed.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Maybe this will be of some value:

A word of Knowledge reveals God's mind. His knowledge about us, and the world around us.

I can go along with this.

A word of Wisdom reveals God's will. Not what will happen in the future, but His will for our future. If we reject the word it doesn't change that the word was His will

I would reject a word like if it wasn't a confirmation that the Holy Spirit already told me.

Prophecy reveals God's heart. Because God's heart for us often contains elements of His mind and His will for us, prophecy will often carry with it words of wisdom and knowledge. When this happens it is still prophecy.

Although this is half-right, as long as the "God's will" part is in the area of "The will of God is that you believe on Him whom He has sent", or "The will of God is your sanctification". But if "God's will" is in the form of specific guidance, then I wouldn't accept it as His will, because He is no gossip and doesn't tell others His will for me unless He tells me first.

Example: A word of knowledge could be: "I've called you to be a school teacher." However, the recipient doesn't have any aspirations for such a thing. Therefore the prophetic word delivers the word of wisdom but also some words of knowledge that the minister could not have known, "I was even preparing you at a young age when you would teach your younger brother math. And later at youth group when you were asked to mentor the new kids". These things are delivered in a prophetic word along with encouragement and exhortation in order to reveal God's heart, because what God is trying to express is that you may not realize it yet, but you've been created to do that job, you're going to be great at it and you are going to love it... THAT is God's heart that cannot be revealed with a word of Wisdom alone, yet the entire spoken dialog would still be a prophetic word.

I would never accept a word like that if the Lord hasn't told me first. It may be that the speaker might think I might be a good teacher, but that does not mean that God is thinking the same. Prophecies like that have channeled people into ministries they were not called to by God, and have caused a lot of damage. However, if beforehand, I felt the Lord calling me to be a teacher, and I was wondering whether I wanted to spend the time and money doing the necessary study to get a teaching degree, and a prophetic word came to me confirming that it is God who is calling me to teach, then I would praise the Lord for the confirmation. But if the word said that I would make a great teacher, I would be reminded of the Scripture "Beware of the flatterer" and I would accept the Holy Spirit warning and reject the prophecy.

That's what the prophetic is for. If it came to tell us everything we already knew, why would we need it in the first place? Now it should still witness to our Spirit and it should never violate the written word.

A guidance prophecy should always confirm a witness that we have already received to our spirit. I heard the story of a man receiving a prophecy telling him that he was going to be a great and famous preacher, and he wasn't sure about it so he put it on the back burner to see what was going to happen. He was then afflicted with a severe back pain which didn't come right after two surgeries. A fellow-believer asked him if he has been involved with the Occult at any stage. He said, no; then he thought of the prophecy and shared it with his friend. "Ah!" The friend replied. "That prophecy contained a spirit of divination that is attacking your body. Renounce it right away!" He renounced it, and the back pain instantly disappeared. That's why we have to be very careful about guidance prophecies that predict your future. It could be inspired by a divination spirit in the same way such a spirit would inspire a fortune teller staring into her crystal ball or reading the tea leaves.

This is the example we see in scripture over and over and over, with all sorts of different, wonderful flavors, but always expressing God's heart. Some people will always nitpick and dissect 1 Cor 12 & 14 to understand the meaning of the scriptures and yet mostly ignore the numerous examples throughout scripture. The examples in the word are scripture too!

The Scripture talks about false prophets, and the lying spirit that went into the 400 prophets that advised King Ahab. All these prophets spoke "God's will" to the people concerned when it wasn't God's will at all, because He never sent them.

When Paul was writing to the Corinthians he was writing to a immature, carnal church that needed their hand held. This is why we don't see "Word of Wisdom" mentioned by name other places in scripture. The gift is there, but for mature believers walking with the Holy Spirit it's simply called "the prophetic", and guess what, that's ok! The important part of flowing in the gifts is that we express God's heart to the recipient(s) (this is why 1 Cor 13 is sandwiched between 12 & 14). When flowing in the true gift of prophecy what is needed will come forth, God's heart will be revealed, and definitions don't matter nearly as much as people's lives being transformed.

While this is generally true, there is nothing that clearly states that the Word of Wisdom is prophetically predicting the future, whether corporately or personally. In my view, a better definition would be that the Word of Wisdom works in with the Word of Knowledge, where a word of knowledge might be revealed to a believer, and the believer asks for the Word of Wisdom to be able to convey that word of knowledge in a way that brings conviction without alienating the other person.

For instance, a pastor may get a word of knowledge about an elder in his church having an affair with a married woman. If he blurted that out from the pulpit, that could destroy the elder, the woman's marriage, and split the church right down the middle. What can the pastor do? He then asks for a word of wisdom (If any man lacks wisdom let him ask of God), and He may get the elder aside and quietly tell him that the Lord wants him to know that being faithful to his family is top priority for him right now". The elder would know exactly what the pastor is telling him, that the Lord has revealed the affair through a word of knowledge without openly and directly accusing him of it. He is more likely to break down, confess the affair, and receive counselling to be able to break it off without destroying his own and the woman's marriage, and splitting the church. He may have to step down from eldership until the situation is resolved and then reinstated afterward. This is because the word of knowledge is designed to restore the elder and put him on the right track so his eldership can continue without blemish and scandal.

Most very sensitive words of knowledge are given privately and with Holy Spirit wisdom. God is not a gossip, and does not support gossiping by busybodies. It is only if an offending person resists all attempts to put him right, that it has to be told to the church and to actually put him out of fellowship until he puts things right. If marriages are destroyed, and his ministry is corrupted, then he would have no one to blame but himself.

Even if Achan had come privately to Joshua and confessed his disobedience, he would not have been exposed publicly, and he might have experienced the grace of God, instead of having him and his whole family stoned to death.

 

[topher694]

I would reject a word like if it wasn't a confirmation that the Holy Spirit already told me.

I know ministers with far more experience and fruit than you or I who would disagree. What you are missing here is that He can still tell you after the word is released. It should always be confirmed in our personal time with God, but there is zero scriptural reason that one has to come before another.

Although this is half-right, as long as the "God's will" part is in the area of "The will of God is that you believe on Him whom He has sent", or "The will of God is your sanctification". But if "God's will" is in the form of specific guidance, then I wouldn't accept it as His will, because He is no gossip and doesn't tell others His will for me unless He tells me first.

There are numerous examples in scripture of God telling a prophet first. I would not be in ministry today if I followed this. I got a word from a very trusted and seasoned man of God that I had never considered before. I embraced it and it altered the course of my life. Now I can't imagine life or ministry without it and it has literally opened doors for me to minister to people around the globe.

I would never accept a word like that if the Lord hasn't told me first. It may be that the speaker might think I might be a good teacher, but that does not mean that God is thinking the same. Prophecies like that have channeled people into ministries they were not called to by God, and have caused a lot of damage. However, if beforehand, I felt the Lord calling me to be a teacher, and I was wondering whether I wanted to spend the time and money doing the necessary study to get a teaching degree, and a prophetic word came to me confirming that it is God who is calling me to teach, then I would praise the Lord for the confirmation. But if the word said that I would make a great teacher, I would be reminded of the Scripture "Beware of the flatterer" and I would accept the Holy Spirit warning and reject the prophecy.

Words like this should be confirmed multiple times and, as stated before, bear witness. That was not really the point of the example. None of this was really.

A guidance prophecy should always confirm a witness that we have already received to our spirit. I heard the story of a man receiving a prophecy telling him that he was going to be a great and famous preacher, and he wasn't sure about it so he put it on the back burner to see what was going to happen. He was then afflicted with a severe back pain which didn't come right after two surgeries. A fellow-believer asked him if he has been involved with the Occult at any stage. He said, no; then he thought of the prophecy and shared it with his friend. "Ah!" The friend replied. "That prophecy contained a spirit of divination that is attacking your body. Renounce it right away!" He renounced it, and the back pain instantly disappeared. That's why we have to be very careful about guidance prophecies that predict your future. It could be inspired by a divination spirit in the same way such a spirit would inspire a fortune teller staring into her crystal ball or reading the tea leaves.

The Scripture talks about false prophets, and the lying spirit that went into the 400 prophets that advised King Ahab. All these prophets spoke "God's will" to the people concerned when it wasn't God's will at all, because He never sent them.

Both these are exactly why I explicitly stated prophecy is an expression of God's heart, not His will. When we are familiar with God's heart we will recognize God's heart and won't be deceived. I've had people try to do similar things to me, many times actually, it's always been easy to recognize it as false because I am so familiar with the true.

While this is generally true, there is nothing that clearly states that the Word of Wisdom is prophetically predicting the future, whether corporately or personally. In my view, a better definition would be that the Word of Wisdom works in with the Word of Knowledge, where a word of knowledge might be revealed to a believer, and the believer asks for the Word of Wisdom to be able to convey that word of knowledge in a way that brings conviction without alienating the other person.

For instance, a pastor may get a word of knowledge about an elder in his church having an affair with a married woman. If he blurted that out from the pulpit, that could destroy the elder, the woman's marriage, and split the church right down the middle. What can the pastor do? He then asks for a word of wisdom (If any man lacks wisdom let him ask of God), and He may get the elder aside and quietly tell him that the Lord wants him to know that being faithful to his family is top priority for him right now". The elder would know exactly what the pastor is telling him, that the Lord has revealed the affair through a word of knowledge without openly and directly accusing him of it. He is more likely to break down, confess the affair, and receive counselling to be able to break it off without destroying his own and the woman's marriage, and splitting the church. He may have to step down from eldership until the situation is resolved and then reinstated afterward. This is because the word of knowledge is designed to restore the elder and put him on the right track so his eldership can continue without blemish and scandal.

Most very sensitive words of knowledge are given privately and with Holy Spirit wisdom. God is not a gossip, and does not support gossiping by busybodies. It is only if an offending person resists all attempts to put him right, that it has to be told to the church and to actually put him out of fellowship until he puts things right. If marriages are destroyed, and his ministry is corrupted, then he would have no one to blame but himself.

Even if Achan had come privately to Joshua and confessed his disobedience, he would not have been exposed publicly, and he might have experienced the grace of God, instead of having him and his whole family stoned to death.

None of this contradicts the description I gave. In fact I think it complements it quite well.

 

[ARBITER01]

I mentioned about how some people were possibly speaking by their own spirit with the gifts at times, and I wanted to elaborate on this some.

3 of the gifts given to us are able to be stepped out in our personal faith and operated by our human spirit. For instance, my prayer tongue can be operated at any moment and any day by me. I can easily step out in faith and pray to GOD by my spirit this way. This is quite common for most Spirit-filled Christians. But be that as it may, I don't seek to operate my prayer tongue in the corporate setting/service because my gift of tongues is not a corporate ministry.

A Christian has to have a specific corporate ministry with their gift for The Holy Spirit to operate it in a setting/service.

If I was to operate my prayer tongue in the corporate setting without a proper ministry of it, beyond all the evil eyes I would get from those who are mature, there would be no edification to those around me during the operation of it, it would be dry. And as well, there would be no interpretation of that tongue because it was not The Holy Spirit operating the gift,...it would have been me.

Same goes for the gift of prophesying. Some Christians are able to step out in their own faith and operate this gift by their human spirit. As anyone can imagine, this can cause major issues in a church setting. Whole church's have been destroyed and basically put out of business when this happened in a setting of folks who didn't know how the gifts were to properly operate. They just accepted it as from GOD and followed the message,....much to their detriment.

When The Holy Spirit wants to operate these gifts in the corporate setting, He will prompt several people after the service starts to see who He will be able to operate through freely. He is seeking to operate your ministry gift in the corporate setting for the benefit of everyone there. The Holy Spirit will be operating the gift each time, and the witness of edification, encouragement, and comfort will happen during the operation of each gift. Each person that properly allowed The Holy Spirit to operate their ministry gift through them will have a grand Spiritual blessing given them inside from Him. The after effect of this service is the inspiration/revelation throughout the rest of the week till next Sunday, hence why they are categorized as inspiration gifts in the past by such people as Howard Carter.

One of the major fruits of The Spirit that must be exercised routinely in such a service is self-control. People who preach can't be launching out in their prayer tongue during the sermon. People who operate in tongues/prophesying normally can't be interrupting a message thinking that they need to operate their gift. Everything is be done decently and in order. There is a time for the operation of the gifts as well as a time for the sermon.

After the sermon, the greater giftings can be operated by The Holy Spirit, such as gifts of healings and working of miracles. Again, everything is done decently and in order.

 

[tturt]

Noticed how dogmatic some statements are specifically opinions about the manifestations of the gifts. Hopefully those who are new will realize that there's a mixture of Biblical understanding with personal opinions.

 

[topher694]

Noticed how dogmatic some statements are specifically opinions about how the gifts operate. Hopefully those who are new will realize that there's a mixture of Biblical understanding with personal opinions.

Yeah, there's a lot of milk here and not a lot of meat in spite of efforts to steer it that direction. Personally, I remind myself that tonight, I and many others, will be flowing in the gifts including tongues and prophecy in a corporate setting, decently and in order, and people will be touched and transformed as they are every week vs pushing personal opinion over and over from a keyboard.