Are Gifts Designed For The Body Of Christ Sign Gifts?

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The question I have is why are the gifts in 1 Corinthians 12 and 14, which are given to believers in the Body of Christ for faith-building and glorying the grace of Christ in churches, designated as "sign" gifts? Why do believers who have already received Christ and filled with the Spirit needing extra "signs' to convince them that the Gospel is true, even though they have already accepted it as true anyway?

These gifts can't be signs to unbelievers, because they are not for unbelievers. True sign gifts are for apostles who go out into all the world and preach the Gospel to pagans and unbelievers, and the signs of healing and deliverance that follow them are for the unbelievers to show them that the preaching of the Gospel is true and that Jesus Christ is real and alive today. It is the Holy Spirit using the signs to convict unbelievers of sin, righteousness, and judgment to come.

But believers already have their sins nailed to the Cross of Christ, have received the free gift of the righteousness of Christ, and because they have judged themselves as sinner, there is no judgment for them. So why do they need signs to convict them? Actually, they don't!

But Paul is quite clear in 1 Corinthians 12 and 14 that the spiritual gifts, including tongues and prophecy, as well as gifts of healing, Word of Knowledge and Wisdom, faith, discerning of spirits and the working of miracles, are not for the preaching of the Gospel to unbelievers, but for the building up of believers in the Body of Christ.

The same is said about God appointing in the church, apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. These are also for the internal building up of the Body of Christ, as well as equipping the church to make disciples for Christ.

So the special miracles that accompanied Paul's ministry to the Gentiles were signs, and they included healing, casting out of demons, and raising the dead. They showed the unbelieving pagans that Jesus Christ was more powerful than their own gods. But Paul didn't need to use those special signs in the church because the believers already knew that Jesus Christ was all powerful. And James said that it were the church elders who used the gifts of healing to minister to sick people in the church fellowship. The church folk didn't need deliverance because they were free from demonic influence (contrary to what some Pentecostals today believe), and if a believer died, they died in the Lord and went to Paradise to be with the Lord.

So, is using the words "sign gifts" when referring to the gifts given to the Body of Christ is confusing one function of supernatural signs with the other of spiritual gifts to the church.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I've always taken to mean sign gifts to mean, visible showings of particular phenomena.

The use of language and thus the context usage definition can change based on application in the future, but as of now that is the impression I get.

 

[paul1149]

These gifts can't be signs to unbelievers, because they are not for unbelievers.

Says whom? Jesus used the word of wisdom very effectively on the likes of the woman at the well. They build up the Body, and they are effective for evangelization as well. Nonetheless, I learned them as manifestation gifts, a la 1Cor 12.7.

 

[topher694]

Says whom? Jesus used the word of wisdom very effectively on the likes of the woman at the well. They build up the Body, and they are effective for evangelization as well. Nonetheless, I learned them as manifestation gifts, a la 1Cor 12.7.

Agreed. The gifts are not reserved for believers only.

A) "Edifying the church" is not an exclusive statement.

B) Demonstrating the unique supernatural power available to believers through the Holy Spirit to unbelievers DOES edify the church... if a unbeliever becomes saved through the gifts of the Spirit they become a part of the church, growing it, which also is edification of the Church.

C) As you stated, Jesus clearly exampled the gifts of the Spirit used to evangelize many whom would be considered "unbelievers"

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I've always taken to mean sign gifts to mean, visible showings of particular phenomena.

The use of language and thus the context usage definition can change based on application in the future, but as of now that is the impression I get.

It remains that the 1 Corinthians 12 and 14 gifts are not sign gifts, because Christian believers don't need signs to show that the Gospel is true. So to say that the gifts of the Spirit were just for the Apostles of Christ is totally wrong, and something that Paul never said. And there are no Scriptures supporting gifts of the Spirit to be used anywhere but in the church and although the last Apostle of Christ was Paul, the Holy Spirit and His gifts are still in the church for building up the Body of Christ.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Says whom? Jesus used the word of wisdom very effectively on the likes of the woman at the well. They build up the Body, and they are effective for evangelization as well. Nonetheless, I learned them as manifestation gifts, a la 1Cor 12.7.

Jesus' ministry was for the lost sheep of Israel, not for the Christian church. When Jesus went to be with the Father, He sent the Holy Spirit to empower the church and provide it with the gifts. As long as the Holy Spirit is present in the church, the gifts will be there as well. Take the gifts away, and you also take the Holy Spirit away as well.

The reason why many churches think they have no "sign" gifts, it is probably there is no sign of the Holy Spirit in them at all, and they are dependent on man's wisdom alone instead of the power of the Holy Spirit. Just saying that the Holy Spirit is "hovering" over the service with no evidence of His involvement through the gifts is just a mere pretence when in reality there is no Holy Spirit there at all, just man-designed three hymns and a sermon that more people sleep through than actually listen to and remember.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Agreed. The gifts are not reserved for believers only.

A) "Edifying the church" is not an exclusive statement.

B) Demonstrating the unique supernatural power available to believers through the Holy Spirit to unbelievers DOES edify the church... if a unbeliever becomes saved through the gifts of the Spirit they become a part of the church, growing it, which also is edification of the Church.

C) As you stated, Jesus clearly exampled the gifts of the Spirit used to evangelize many whom would be considered "unbelievers"

You are adding your own opinion to what Paul actually said. He said that God has put the gifts into the church, but he didn't say that the gifts were for the church and unbelievers. Early church evangelism did not happen in the homes where church was held. It was held out in the streets and market places.

There were no such meetings as "evangelism" meetings in the early church. Paul taught and evangelised in the synagogues, but those were not Christian fellowship meetings.

In actual fact, Christianity was a capital offence in the Roman Empire and therefore fellowship meetings were not advertised and not freely accessible to pagan Romans. It was only when a pagan turned to Christ was he or she introduced into the fellowship meetings. Therefore the 1 Corinthians 12 and 14 gifts were limited to church fellowship meetings.

The miracles that accompanied the preaching of the Gospel in the streets and market places were the "signs and wonders" that the Scripture says were manifested.

In fact, there were no such gifts as "sign" gifts in the New Testament. The definition is an extra-Biblical invention dreamed up by someone who believed that that the spiritual gifts were limited to the Apostles and ceased after the death of the last Apostle, namely, the Apostle John, Paul having been martred before John's death.

 

[disciple Clint]

The question I have is why are the gifts in 1 Corinthians 12 and 14, which are given to believers in the Body of Christ for faith-building and glorying the grace of Christ in churches, designated as "sign" gifts? Why do believers who have already received Christ and filled with the Spirit needing extra "signs' to convince them that the Gospel is true, even though they have already accepted it as true anyway?

These gifts can't be signs to unbelievers, because they are not for unbelievers. True sign gifts are for apostles who go out into all the world and preach the Gospel to pagans and unbelievers, and the signs of healing and deliverance that follow them are for the unbelievers to show them that the preaching of the Gospel is true and that Jesus Christ is real and alive today. It is the Holy Spirit using the signs to convict unbelievers of sin, righteousness, and judgment to come.

But believers already have their sins nailed to the Cross of Christ, have received the free gift of the righteousness of Christ, and because they have judged themselves as sinner, there is no judgment for them. So why do they need signs to convict them? Actually, they don't!

But Paul is quite clear in 1 Corinthians 12 and 14 that the spiritual gifts, including tongues and prophecy, as well as gifts of healing, Word of Knowledge and Wisdom, faith, discerning of spirits and the working of miracles, are not for the preaching of the Gospel to unbelievers, but for the building up of believers in the Body of Christ.

The same is said about God appointing in the church, apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. These are also for the internal building up of the Body of Christ, as well as equipping the church to make disciples for Christ.

So the special miracles that accompanied Paul's ministry to the Gentiles were signs, and they included healing, casting out of demons, and raising the dead. They showed the unbelieving pagans that Jesus Christ was more powerful than their own gods. But Paul didn't need to use those special signs in the church because the believers already knew that Jesus Christ was all powerful. And James said that it were the church elders who used the gifts of healing to minister to sick people in the church fellowship. The church folk didn't need deliverance because they were free from demonic influence (contrary to what some Pentecostals today believe), and if a believer died, they died in the Lord and went to Paradise to be with the Lord.

So, is using the words "sign gifts" when referring to the gifts given to the Body of Christ is confusing one function of supernatural signs with the other of spiritual gifts to the church.

Why did the Apostles not believe that Jesus would rise from the dead? They needed signs even after spending three years with Jesus and knowing him better than anyone. We all need to freshen our faith from time to time, God understands us.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Why did the Apostles not believe that Jesus would rise from the dead? They needed signs even after spending three years with Jesus and knowing him better than anyone. We all need to freshen our faith from time to time, God understands us.

The big sign for them was that Jesus actually rose from the dead. The signs and wonders that accompanied the Apostle's preaching of the Gospel showed that Jesus did rise from the dead and is alive. The power of the Holy Spirit in the preaching of the Gospel showed the pagans that the living Jesus Christ was more powerful than their dead gods of wood and stone.

But the ministries and the spiritual gifts are given to the church to strengthen and build up our faith and to remind us that the Holy Spirit, representing the living Jesus, is present and active among us. When people hear a prophesy that shows the love of God to them and is accurate in what it says, believers are reminded that the Holy Spirit is present and speaking through the prophets. When an unbeliever comes into the meeting and people are prophesying, revealing the contents of his heart, and he falls on his face, acknowledges that God is in the midst of a truth, and gets right with Him, everyone then knows that God is right there in the Person of the Holy Spirit.

The same thing happens when someone in the meeting gets healed instantly of a terminal cancer, or gets up out of a wheelchair and starts walking for the first time in his life. Or a word of knowledge is given to someone that is totally accurate and confirms what God has already said to him, or someone suddenly has a burst of faith to achieve something dpreviously impossible - all these remind us that God is right there and working in our midst.

 

[tturt]

Tongues are a sign - To unbelievers By believers

"Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: ...(I Cor 14:22).
"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;..." (Mark 16:17) Plus God's spirit languages edifies believers. It's an ongoing process.

Deliverance from oppression is for believers because "When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. 44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. 45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation." Luk 11 Unbelievers arent going to pursue God and His Word; therefore, they would be empty and have 7x more wicked demons than beforehand.

Jesus, while on earth, said look at the signs and wonders "If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in Him." John 10:37-38

It works the same way today. One result is when they are healed, they want to become believers - the time varies.

Testamonies can result in an increase in faith for that type of healing. Some don't want the details of the illness of the person they're praying with. Praying for someone whose in a coma requires different faith than asking God to heal a cold. But the gifts of healing will cover all cases.

 

[topher694]

You are adding your own opinion to what Paul actually said. He said that God has put the gifts into the church, but he didn't say that the gifts were for the church and unbelievers. Early church evangelism did not happen in the homes where church was held. It was held out in the streets and market places.

There were no such meetings as "evangelism" meetings in the early church. Paul taught and evangelised in the synagogues, but those were not Christian fellowship meetings.

In actual fact, Christianity was a capital offence in the Roman Empire and therefore fellowship meetings were not advertised and not freely accessible to pagan Romans. It was only when a pagan turned to Christ was he or she introduced into the fellowship meetings. Therefore the 1 Corinthians 12 and 14 gifts were limited to church fellowship meetings.

The miracles that accompanied the preaching of the Gospel in the streets and market places were the "signs and wonders" that the Scripture says were manifested.

In fact, there were no such gifts as "sign" gifts in the New Testament. The definition is an extra-Biblical invention dreamed up by someone who believed that that the spiritual gifts were limited to the Apostles and ceased after the death of the last Apostle, namely, the Apostle John, Paul having been martred before John's death.

No, I'm adding nothing. I'm looking at the example that both he and Jesus set. Acts 16, Paul uses the gift of discerning of spirits to identify and cast out a spirit divination on the slave girl. That is a clear example of the gifts being used to help (evangelize) an unbeliever. Jesus examples many similar uses of the gifts.

 

[com7fy8]

believers don't need signs to show that the Gospel is true.

If God grants a sign, now, it can be in order to help strengthen confirmation, or in order to show God approves of the minister working the sign. It is like how we can hear the same good message over and over, again, and each time it can bless us more. A true sign is not only a show, but deeply the Holy Spirit is ministering grace which always is needed

Actions can speak louder than words.

I believe, but it is encouraging at times to see God do what is more obviously miraculous.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

No, I'm adding nothing. I'm looking at the example that both he and Jesus set. Acts 16, Paul uses the gift of discerning of spirits to identify and cast out a spirit divination on the slave girl. That is a clear example of the gifts being used to help (evangelize) an unbeliever. Jesus examples many similar uses of the gifts.

You are correct. The Apostles had validation gifts because they were needed to show the pagans that Jesus Christ is alive and more powerful then their gods. But when the last Apostle died, the validation gifts went with them. What is left for the ministry of the Body of Christ are the spiritual gifts. These are not validation gifts, they are power gifts for the building up of the church. A church evangelist can manifest any of the gifts to support his ministry to the lost, not to validate anyone personally, but to show God's love and compassion for the lost.

 

[topher694]

You are correct. The Apostles had validation gifts because they were needed to show the pagans that Jesus Christ is alive and more powerful then their gods. But when the last Apostle died, the validation gifts went with them. What is left for the ministry of the Body of Christ are the spiritual gifts. These are not validation gifts, they are power gifts for the building up of the church. A church evangelist can manifest any of the gifts to support his ministry to the lost, not to validate anyone personally, but to show God's love and compassion for the lost.

It seems to me we agree on the conclusion, but not the premise of how we got there.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

If God grants a sign, now, it can be in order to help strengthen confirmation, or in order to show God approves of the minister working the sign. It is like how we can hear the same good message over and over, again, and each time it can bless us more. A true sign is not only a show, but deeply the Holy Spirit is ministering grace which always is needed

Actions can speak louder than words.

I believe, but it is encouraging at times to see God do what is more obviously miraculous.

Because we are living in a neo-pagan society, we would need the signs and wonders that happened in the First Century. There is no doubt about that.

But not to confuse these with the false signs and wonders by the Anti-Christ, true signs and wonders point people to Christ, convict them of sin, and show them the need to turn to Christ. False signs and wonders draw people away from Christ to putting faith in a man or a church. The devil will not give signs and wonders to turn people to Christ. He doesn't work to destroy his own kingdom, because a kingdom divided against itself will fall.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

It remains that the 1 Corinthians 12 and 14 gifts are not sign gifts, because Christian believers don't need signs to show that the Gospel is true. So to say that the gifts of the Spirit were just for the Apostles of Christ is totally wrong, and something that Paul never said. And there are no Scriptures supporting gifts of the Spirit to be used anywhere but in the church and although the last Apostle of Christ was Paul, the Holy Spirit and His gifts are still in the church for building up the Body of Christ.

According to Romans 15:19, sign gifts were an important part of the original gospel.

 

[ss51]

And we know God is the same, yesterday, today, and forever, what He did then, He is still doing, any trouble in appropriating His gifts is not from him, it is always from down here.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

And we know God is the same, yesterday, today, and forever, what He did then, He is still doing, any trouble in appropriating His gifts is not from him, it is always from down here.

28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, and those with gifts of healing, helping, administration, and various tongues. (1 Corinthians 12:28)

…11And it was He who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God, as we mature to the full measure of the stature of Christ (Ephesians 4:11-13).

These references show how God has equipped the church. Notice that the "until" here does not indicate a cessation of these ministries and gifts when the last Apostle dies, or the canon of Scripture is completed, but "until" we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God when we mature to the full measure of the stature of Christ.

In a way, cessationists are correct when they say that when the church is established, the gifts and ministries will cease. But they are mistaken when they think that the establishment of the church has already been achieved.

Do our churches have unity in the faith? NO!
Do we have full knowledge of the Son of God? NO!
Have we all matured to the full measure of the stature of Christ? Not on your nelly?

So, is the church fully established yet? NOPE!

Therefore the gifts and ministries, as established by God for the building up of the church are still there. Whether churches decide to use them or not is totally another question...

 

[Hidden In Him]

Tongues are a sign - To unbelievers By believers

"Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: ...(I Cor 14:22).
"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;..." (Mark 16:17) Plus God's spirit languages edifies believers. It's an ongoing process.

@Oscarr.

I would agree with this post here, Oscarr. I think you would need to qualify your position with "aside from tongues" at the very least (other arguments like Topher's aside), because Paul clearly identifies it as a sign to unbelievers in 1 Corinthians 14:22. Going strictly by this text, it appears to be the primary purpose of public tongues-speaking in fact, with prophecy being the gift that ministers more directly to the church.

18 I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all; 19 yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.
20 Brethren, do not be children in understanding; however, in malice be babes, but in understanding be mature. 21 In the law it is written: “With men of other tongues and other lips I will speak to this people; And yet, for all that, they will not hear Me,” says the Lord. 22 Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe. 23 Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

@Oscarr.

I would agree with this post here, Oscarr. I think you would need to qualify your position with "aside from tongues" at the very least (other arguments like Topher's aside), because Paul clearly identifies it as a sign to unbelievers in 1 Corinthians 14:22. Going strictly by this text, it appears to be the primary purpose of public tongues-speaking in fact, with prophecy being the gift that ministers more directly to the church.

18 I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all; 19 yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.
20 Brethren, do not be children in understanding; however, in malice be babes, but in understanding be mature. 21 In the law it is written: “With men of other tongues and other lips I will speak to this people; And yet, for all that, they will not hear Me,” says the Lord. 22 Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe. 23 Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind?

It is interesting that Paul says that the people will not hear the Spirit of God even though men of other tongues will speak to them. It is also interesting that God is speaking through the other tongues. So it seems that unbelievers will hear the tongues spoken as a sign from God for them, but because they will not hear what the Spirit of God is saying to them in their hearts concerning the Gospel of Christ, they will accuse the believers of madness.

So, I wonder if we have all got this verse wrong. Not all unbelievers coming into a Pentecostal church where people are speaking in tongues will accuse them of being mad. Those ones who are genuine seekers after Christ will "get" the sign that God is among these people and they need to receive Christ to avoid the judgment to come. But those unbelievers who have hardened their hearts to God will stop their ears, ignore the sign, and deflect the truth of the sign by accusing the believers of madness.

Therefore, the ones who accuse those who speak in tongues of madness are those who are irretrievably reprobate and will never receive Christ, because they have so embraced evil, that God has given them up to it (according to Romans).

When, as still an unconverted person, I went to my first Pentecostal service where people all around me were speaking in tongues, I wasn't spooked at all, neither did I think they were mad. I was fascinated, because I have never been in a church like that before. I heard the real Gospel for the first time and knew it was my night to receive Christ. At that time I didn't know that tongues was a sign of impending judgment on unbelievers. I found that out later as I grew in grace and in the knowledge of God.

So, I think that those who speak in tongues in church, without disrupting the flow of the service, should not worry. Let confirmed unbelievers accuse them of madness, because they are refusing to hear the voice of God in the sign. We know that genuine seekers whose heart will be softened by the Holy Spirit will accept the sign and avoid the judgment by receiving Christ.