Are Gentiles God's chosen people?

[Lion King]

By joining Israel (the Jews).

Gentiles are invited to become part of God's covenant-people Israel, by conforming to the Way, the Ethos, the Traditions, of Israel. Anything less than this is to create a new Gentile "Israel" that is not really Israel; it is revisionism and "creative", rather than obedient and conforming.

Most don't want to join God's PEOPLE though. They don't want to be part of a PEOPLE; they want to be little know-it-alls without organization, arrogantly and hubristically assuming themselves to be among the few in the know (the Elite) and that God has replaced his Am, his Volk, his People, for a handful of few modern Western besserwissers.

I am guessing that you don't believe that one becomes a child of God by believing in Jesus Christ? Am I correct?

 

[Hoshiyya]

I am guessing that you don't believe that one becomes a child of God by believing in Jesus Christ? Am I correct?

I'm guessing you missed my point in asking what you mean by "child of God". It really must be defined.

Does that term describe, denote or refer to any of the following:

a) - Being obedient to Torah, God's law

b) - One's origin and nature; f.ex angels (good and bad) are sons of God, as scripture says

c) - being guaranteed eternal pleasure or at least guaranteed freedom from eternal torture

In Judaism, "a" is the most important one. Eternal life only has value if devoted to glorifying God through Mitzvot.

 

[Lion King]

I'm guessing you missed my point in asking what you mean by "child of God". It really must be defined.

Does that term describe, denote or refer to any of the following:

a) - Being obedient to Torah, God's law

b) - One's origin and nature, ie. angels (good and bad) are sons of God, as scripture says

c) - being guaranteed eternal pleasure or at least guaranteed freedom from eternal torture

In Judaism, "a" is the most important one. Eternal life only has value if devoted to glorifying God through Mitzvot.

In Christianity, a "child of God" is simply someone who puts their faith in the Son of God, Jesus Christ, and keeps the His commands. Is this not the same in Messianic Judaism?

 

[Hoshiyya]

In Christianity, a "child of God" is simply someone who puts their faith in the Son of God, Jesus Christ, and keeps the His commands. Is this not the same in Messianic Judaism?

If you want to have an honest discussion, please choose one or more of the three alternatives I gave you, or suggest a fourth one.
As it stands it seems you may be choosing "a" (hence agreeing with Judaism?) or you may be adding a fourth option.

I am trying to say that the point is the commandments. And how does one keep them? By learning from our appointed teachers.
(Many commandments cannot be kept without learning from the Jews.
How do we keep Sabbath from one day to the next? The scriptures don't say when a day begins and ends, so we need the Rabbis to even keep Sabbath.)

In the Bible, rebellious angels as well as Adam (who may or may not have known the Torah) are called sons of God, a fact you seem to purposefully ignore, which makes this discussion difficult. "Son of God" does not mean "someone who keeps the commandments", though your definition seems to be that it is.

 

[Lion King]

If you want to have an honest discussion, please choose one or more of the three alternatives I gave you, or suggest a fourth one.
As it stands it seems you may be choosing "a" (hence agreeing with Judaism?) or you may be adding a fourth option.

I choose "d".

d)- keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

I am trying to say that the point is the commandments. And how does one keep them? By learning from our appointed teachers.
(Many commandments cannot be kept without learning from the Jews.
How do we keep Sabbath from one day to the next? The scriptures don't say when a day begins and ends, so we need the Rabbis to even keep Sabbath.)

In the Bible, rebellious angels as well as Adam (who may or may not have known the Torah) are called sons of God, a fact you seem to purposefully ignore, which makes this discussion difficult. "Son" does not mean "someone who keeps the commandments", though your definition seems to be that it is.

Do you believe a Jew can be called a child of God without believing in Jesus Christ?

 

[Hoshiyya]

I choose "d".

d)- keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.



Do you believe a Jew can be called a child of God without believing in Jesus Christ?

The commandments are the commandments ("a"). They were given in Moses' day, and in part or entirety even before the flood, it seems.

The angels who came down in Gen. 6 were called "sons of God" but were not the kind of people you would want to be around. Did they believe in Iesous ?

 

[Lion King]

The commandments are the commandments ("a"). They were given in Moses' day, and in part or entirety even before the flood, it seems.

Do you believe a Jew can be called a child of God without faith in Jesus Christ?

The angels who came down in Gen. 6 were called "sons of God" but were not the kind of people you would want to be around. Did they believe in Iesous?

The angels who rebelled against God are no longer called "sons of God". But to answer your question, yes, even those angels believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

When He had come to the other side, to the country of the Gergesenes, there met Him two demon-possessed men, coming out of the tombs, exceedingly fierce, so that no one could pass that way. 29 And suddenly they cried out, saying, “What have we to do with You, Jesus, You Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?” Matthew 8:28-29

 

[Hoshiyya]

Do you believe a Jew can be called a child of God without faith in Jesus Christ?



The angels who rebelled against God are no longer called "sons of God". But to answer your question, yes, even those angels believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

When He had come to the other side, to the country of the Gergesenes, there met Him two demon-possessed men, coming out of the tombs, exceedingly fierce, so that no one could pass that way. 29 And suddenly they cried out, saying, “What have we to do with You, Jesus, You Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?” Matthew 8:28-29

"Do you believe a Jew can be called a child of God without faith in Jesus Christ?"

Sure, depends on how you define "child of God" of course. Did Adam believe in Jesus? Adam was called "son of God."

"The angels who rebelled against God are no longer called "sons of God"."

You're arguing against the scriptures. Anyway, it does not matter for you go on to say that even evil angels believe in Jesus, hence believing in Jesus is not necessarily related to keeping commandments under that definition. Which makes sense. Most people who claim to believe in Jesus keep barely half of the ten commandments.

 

[Lion King]

"Do you believe a Jew can be called a child of God without faith in Jesus Christ?"

Sure, depends on how you define "child of God" of course. Did Adam believe in Jesus? Adam was called "son of God."

Adam believed in God. Jesus is God.

So, yeah, Adam believed in God.

Anyway, what did Jesus say to those Jews who didn't believe He was the Son of God? Didn't He call them children of the devil?

"The angels who rebelled against God are no longer called "sons of God"."

You're arguing against the scriptures. Anyway, it does not matter for you go on to say that even evil angels believe in Jesus, hence believing in Jesus is not necessarily related to keeping commandments under that definition. Which makes sense. Most people who claim to believe in Jesus keep barely half of the ten commandments.

Did you even read what I wrote?

The fallen angels believe that Christ is the Son of God as evidenced by Matthew 8:28-29.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Adam believed in God. Jesus is God.

So, yeah, Adam believed in God.

Anyway, what did Jesus say to those Jews who didn't believe He was the Son of God? Didn't He call them children of the devil?



Did you even read what I wrote?

The fallen angels believe that Christ is the Son of God as evidenced by Matthew 8:28-29.

Yeshua was adressing a few specific Jews who knew or should have known who he was.

Anyway, we're dancing around the obvious, which is that the goal of life is not the application of the English term "child of God" to one subject or another, the goal of everything is glorification of God in Torah.

The reason you get eternal life is for Torah-keeping. The point, the objective, of salvation, of life, is exactly this, God-glorifying through Mitzvot. In order to keep Mitzvot you need context, Rabbis, traditions, to really understand it fully.

Gentiles are invited to become part of God's covenant-people Israel, by conforming to the Way, the Ethos, the Traditions, of Israel. Anything less than this is to create a new Gentile "Israel" that is not really Israel; it is revisionism and "creative", rather than obedient and conforming.

 

[Lion King]

Yeshua was adressing a few specific Jews who knew or should have known who he was.

Do you then agree, that for one to become a child of God, one should have faith in Jesus Christ?

Anyway, we're dancing around the obvious, which is that the goal of life is not the application of the English term "child of God" to one subject or another, the goal of everything is glorification of God in Torah.

The reason you get eternal life is for Torah-keeping. The point, the objective, of salvation, of life, is exactly this, God-glorifying through Mitzvot. In order to keep Mitzvot you need context, Rabbis, traditions, to really understand it fully.

Gentiles are invited to become part of God's covenant-people Israel, by conforming to the Way, the Ethos, the Traditions, of Israel. Anything less than this is to create a new Gentile "Israel" that is not really Israel; it is revisionism and "creative", rather than obedient and conforming.

Can you get eternal life without belief in the Son of God? John seems to think otherwise:

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. John 3:16-18

 

[visionary]

We are called, We are "chosen".... the covenant has been extended to all who believe.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Do you then agree, that for one to become a child of God, one should have faith in Jesus Christ?



Can you get eternal life without belief in the Son of God? John seems to think otherwise:

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. John 3:16-18

"Can you get eternal life without belief in the Son of God? "

You probably believe in eternal hell, hence you believe Satan and the Antichrist and so on all have eternal life, so your question is obviated by that. Everybody has eternal life according to traditional Christianity.


"Do you then agree, that for one to become a child of God, one should have faith in Jesus Christ?"

Again, depends on what you mean by child of God. Fallen angels are sons of God, and Adam was a son of God, even though he never met the Rabbi from Nazareth. Maybe he met the pre-incarnate Messiah in Eden? Who knows. It is besides the point.

My POINT is that the term "child of God" doesn't actually occur in scripture and isn't the focal point of existence. Torah is the point. Life, resurrection, salvation - these things are ways to get to Torah. Glorification of God by Torah-keeping is the point, the goal, of every second of every day, and of eternity.

 

[Lion King]

We are called, We are "chosen".... the covenant has been extended to all who believe.

Extended?

The Covenant given to Abraham was always meant for the whole world, and not just the nation of Israel:

And I will bless them that bless you, and curse him that curses you: and in you shall all families of the earth be blessed. Genesis 12:3

And in your seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because you have obeyed my voice. Genesis 22:18


God fulfilled this promise when He sent forth His one and only Son, Jesus Christ, to be a blessing unto the whole world, starting with Israel.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Extended?

The Covenant given to Abraham was always meant for the whole world, and not just the nation of Israel:

And I will bless them that bless you, and curse him that curses you: and in you shall all families of the earth be blessed. Genesis 12:3

And in your seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because you have obeyed my voice. Genesis 22:18


God fulfilled this promise when He sent forth His one and only Son, Jesus Christ, to be a blessing unto the whole world, starting with Israel.

Then why did the vikings or mongolians or australian aboriginees not hear about Yeshua or Tanak until the Catholics/Anglicans introduced it to them?

If Elohim wanted to send a prophet to, or convert, a given nation, he would have succeeded. However he has neglected to send any revelations to most people who ever lived. Such is his plan.

 

[Lion King]

"Can you get eternal life without belief in the Son of God? "

You probably believe in eternal hell, hence you believe Satan and the Antichrist and so on all have eternal life, so your question is obviated by that. Everybody has eternal life according to traditional Christianity.

Where did you get the idea that "traditional Christianity believes everyone has eternal life"? Please point out the relevant Scriptures that say so?

At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people--everyone whose name is found written in the book--will be delivered. Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. Daniel 12:1-2

_____

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29

"Do you then agree, that for one to become a child of God, one should have faith in Jesus Christ?"

Again, depends on what you mean by child of God. Fallen angels are sons of God, and Adam was a son of God, even though he never met the Rabbi from Nazareth. Maybe he met the pre-incarnate Messiah in Eden? Who knows. It is besides the point.

Fallen angels are no longer called sons of God because they rebelled against God. Only death awaits them.

Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.' Matthew 25:41


Adam was called the son of God because He believed in God.

My POINT is that the term "child of God" doesn't actually occur in scripture and isn't the focal point of existence. Torah is the point. Life, resurrection, salvation - these things are ways to get to Torah. Glorification of God by Torah-keeping is the point, the goal, of every second of every day, and of eternity.

So, the Torah, and not Jesus Christ is the way to God?

 

[Lion King]

Then why did the vikings or mongolians or australian aboriginees not hear about Yeshua or Tanak until the Catholics/Anglicans introduced it to them?

If Elohim wanted to send a prophet to, or convert, a given nation, he would have succeeded. However he has neglected to send any revelations to most people who ever lived. Such is his plan.

And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen. Matthew 28:18-20

God's plan has already succeeded.

 

[Digout]

lol

You think this type of tripe is only "out there" and that you won't encounter it, but then you do.
On the forum of Messianic JUDAISM no less.

Hey I can respond in kind.

Israel were indeed rejected. That's why those tribes were lost. But the Jews are still around, for they are the covenant-keepers.

Blood covenant of Jesus is valid now spiritually!

 

[Hoshiyya]

Where did you get the idea that "traditional Christianity believes everyone has eternal life"? Please point out the relevant Scriptures that say so?

At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people--everyone whose name is found written in the book--will be delivered. Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. Daniel 12:1-2

_____

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29



Fallen angels are no longer called sons of God because they rebelled against God. Only death awaits them.

Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.' Matthew 25:41


Adam was called the son of God because He believed in God.



So, the Torah, and not Jesus Christ is the way to God?

Where did you get the idea that "traditional Christianity believes everyone has eternal life"? Please point out the relevant Scriptures that say so?

Traditional Christianity believes in eternal hell. The Bible has nothing to do with traditional Christianity, as traditional Christianity has nothing to do with truth.

"So, the Torah, and not Jesus Christ is the way to God?"

I'm saying the point of "getting to God" is to glorify God through Torah. The reason Yeshua may raise you up to life is for you to keep Torah.

"Fallen angels are no longer called sons of God because they rebelled against God"

Well maybe in your terminology, but the Bible contradicts you.
Adam, like the angels, believed in God. Like the angels, he broke the law though. Yet he like the angels is called son of God.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Blood covenant of Jesus is valid now spiritually!

God didn't invalidate his covenant. He said "not even if heaven and earth pass away" and heaven and earth have not passed away. Who can trust a God who revokes his own laws?
Maybe one day soon he says "like Judaism was abrogated by Christianity, likewise I now abrogate Christianity with Islam or Mormonism or some new religion."