are gays wrong?

[kulenok]

Wrong about the price of gas?
Wrong about why the sky is blue?
Wrong about steroid use in major league baseball?

wrong about their sexuality.

 

[kulenok]

Please show us where "heterosexuality" and "left handedness" are specifically condemned in the Bible?

Sure. Right here:romans 1:26-27. these two versus are very specific on what they want to get told.

 

[Brieuse]

Do you actually believe that misrepresentation, dishonesty, and quoting out-of-context proves anything? Homosexual rape is NEVER mentioned in the ECF I quoted. Nor did the Jewish scholars from the time of Moses, ca. 1200 BC, ever mention "homosexual rape." Are you going to try to pretend that you know more about the Hebrew scriptures than any Jewish scholar in the past 3000 years +/-? and the early church including the disciples of John, and their followers?

Here again the summary of interpretation by the early church.

The early church interpreted [SIZE=+1]αρσενοκοιτης[/SIZE]/arsenokoités variously as, “”sodomy,” “filth of sodomy,” lawless lust, “lust,” “impurity,” “works of the flesh,” “carnal,” “lawless intercourse,” “shameless,” “burning with insane love for boys,” “licentiousness,” “co-habitors with males,” “lusters after mankind”, etc.

like I said

 

[DaveS]

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveS
[SIZE=-1]Actually left-handedness was pretty much condemned by many Christians up till about 100 years ago. [[SIZE=+1]Irrelevant. Does scripture condemn left handedness[/SIZE]?] This is the reason why so many people back then were basically forced into right-handedness as it was actually seen as "evil". There are supposedly over 100 discriminatory references to the left hand in the Bible, all of which can be read in the way that many people concluded years ago. [[SIZE=+1]The operative word here is "supposedly" NOT actually[/SIZE]!] Many people actually thought that left-handers chose to be so simply because they wanted to be different and to stand out from the crowd; seems familiar eh? This was soon disproved as it was shown that forcibly changing a left-hander into a right-hander actually causes permanent phsychological problems such as dyslexia, stammering and extreme shyness.

You must also remember that there are more than a few verses which appear to be supportive or at least tolerant of slavery and racism[[SIZE=+1]Irrelevant. Smoke screen[/SIZE]!][/SIZE]...

Scripture does not condemn "lefthandedness."

That is slightly weak Der Alter if I may so... the only reason I said 'supposedly' is because I have not myself gone through and counted every reference so I can't be absolutely sure of it's authenticity.
I may also point out that the fact that slavery and racism can be justified using the Bible is most certainly NOT a smokescreen as it shows that unless you do happen to be supportive of the above three discriminations then you in fact ignoring parts of the Bible to effectively suit your own take on the world.

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]That is slightly weak Der Alter if I may so... the only reason I said 'supposedly' is because I have not myself gone through and counted every reference so I can't be absolutely sure of it's authenticity.[/SIZE]

If one wants to argue a point then one should research and present the relevant facts, not speculation. If you quote a source then identify the source. OBTW at least one of the Judges of Israel was left handed.

[SIZE=-1]I may also point out that the fact that slavery and racism can be justified using the Bible is most certainly NOT a smokescreen as it shows that unless you do happen to be supportive of the above three discriminations then you in fact ignoring parts of the Bible to effectively suit your own take on the world.[/SIZE]

The fact that some segment of society may have misused scripture to justify racism, slavery, or any other thing, in the past, is not evidence for the interpretation or application of any other unrelated scripture, in the present.

The subject here is homosexuality and the scripture, any comparison to slavery/racism, etc. in ancient Israel, and/or in the U.S. south is a smokescreen.

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]like I said[/SIZE]

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

Proverbs 12:15 The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.

Proverbs 21:2 Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.​

 

[DaveS]

If one wants to argue a point then one should research and present the relevant facts, not speculation. If you quote a source then identify the source. OBTW at least one of the Judges of Israel was left handed.

Fine:
'The Left-handers Handbook'
As this is a book I can't show you where it exactly says this, I shall therefore give some websites:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-handedness#Cultural_stigmatisation

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0857/is_n2_v10/ai_12206761

The fact that some segment of society may have misused scripture to justify racism, slavery, or any other thing, in the past, is not evidence for the interpretation or application of any other unrelated scripture, in the present.

The subject here is homosexuality and the scripture, any comparison to slavery/racism, etc. in ancient Israel, and/or in the U.S. south is a smokescreen.

If some 'segment of society' (which by the way was more like most of society) managed to mis-use the Bible to their own ends then what makes any other claim any different? Afterall, it is unestablished as to the origin of homosexuality (as was the origins of race then), homosexuals are in the minority (as were people of other race then) and there is no established reason why gay people are inferior as they do know harm. Does this seem awfully familiar?
I may also point out that in many parts of the Bible it accepts slaves as the 'norm' and says nothing about how it is wrong. Why then do you not accept and support slavery? Is this not picking and choosing?

 

[imind]

if you believe the bible to be the literal word of god, you might find reason to claim homosexuality a sin.

however, nowhere in the bible does it suggest we should deny them the same rights and priviledges we have. nowhere in the bible does it tell us to treat sinners as second class citizens, which is exactly what is happening now.

 

[Brieuse]

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

Proverbs 12:15 The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.

Proverbs 21:2 Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.​

exactly! I'm trusting in the Lord. And not leaning into your understanding

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]Fine:
'The Left-handers Handbook'
As this is a book I can't show you where it exactly says this, I shall therefore give some websites:[/SIZE]

I don't chase down anonymous links.

[SIZE=-1]If some 'segment of society' (which by the way was more like most of society) managed to mis-use the Bible to their own ends then what makes any other claim any different? [Buying, and maintaining slaves was always the prerogative of the wealthy, who were always the minority!] Afterall, it is unestablished as to the origin of homosexuality (as was the origins of race then), [Irrelevant!] homosexuals are in the minority (as were people of other race then) and there is no established reason why gay people are inferior as they do know harm. Does this seem awfully familiar? [I am familiar with this, BUT I do not practice it!]
I may also point out that in many parts of the Bible it accepts slaves as the 'norm' and says nothing about how it is wrong. [What is your point? Acknowledging the existence of slavery is not the same as condoning it!] Why then do you not accept and support slavery? Is this not picking and choosing?[Logical fallacy!][/SIZE]

My not accepting or supporting slavery, or anything else, has no relationship to the issue of homosexuality. There is no Biblical command that I should believe, do, think, support/not support, etc., anything unrelated, in order to believe what the Bible says about homosexuality or any other issue.

There were generally two types of slaves in the O.T. bond slaves who sold themselves for a specific period of time and prisoners taken in war.

Neither, Jesus, Peter, Paul, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, James, Jude, nor any of the disciples owned slaves. Why should I? But both Paul and Jude did condemn homosexuality.

 

[Time4AChange]

In the Scriptures God was all about FREEING His people from slavery, not putting them INTO slavery. The only time God allowed slavery of His people, is when He was punishing them for their SINS. Slavery was a result of SIN, nothing else. So people that tried to justify slavery (based on color) using Scripture, were contradicting themselves. God NEVER punished people because of their color, He punished them because of their SIN. That's why for many years those generations of people were in slavery, because of their SIN, not their color.

People who justified the slavery of a group of people based on their color, twisted the Scriptures. Slavery wasn't allowed by God based on color, it was allowed based on sin. However, there's no "twisting of Scripture" required when it comes to homosexuality. It's very clear about it being a sinful act. So other than the fact that they are both the results of sin, there's no biblical comparision between slavery and homosexuality.

So to answer DaveS question of why we dont accept and support slavery....that's because the slavery that was in Bible was a result of sin, and it was a form of punishment by God for being disobedient. God never wanted His people to be in bondage, but because of sin He allowed slavery to come into the world. Unlike the slavery that we've seen in the last few centuries, which had nothing to do with sin, but with the color of people's skin. The two types of slavery are very different, and people perverted the Word of God to justify enslaving Africans.

But i do understand that everything that happens that is negative, God allows it to happen for a reason...and im in no position to question His methods.

 

[RMDY]

In the Scriptures God was all about FREEING His people from slavery, not putting them INTO slavery. The only time God allowed slavery of His people, is when He was punishing them for their SINS. Slavery was a result of SIN, nothing else. So people that tried to justify slavery (based on color) using Scripture, were contradicting themselves. God NEVER punished people because of their color, He punished them because of their SIN. That's why for many years those generations of people were in slavery, because of their SIN, not their color.

People who justified the slavery of a group of people based on their color, twisted the Scriptures. Slavery wasn't allowed by God based on color, it was allowed based on sin. However, there's no "twisting of Scripture" required when it comes to homosexuality. It's very clear about it being a sinful act. So other than the fact that they are both the results of sin, there's no biblical comparision between slavery and homosexuality.

So to answer DaveS question of why we dont accept and support slavery....that's because the slavery that was in Bible was a result of sin, and it was a form of punishment by God for being disobedient. God never wanted His people to be in bondage, but because of sin He allowed slavery to come into the world. Unlike the slavery that we've seen in the last few centuries, which had nothing to do with sin, but with the color of people's skin. The two types of slavery are very different, and people perverted the Word of God to justify enslaving Africans.

But i do understand that everything that happens that is negative, God allows it to happen for a reason...and im in no position to question His methods.

amen brother

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]exactly! I'm trusting in the Lord. And not leaning into your understanding[/SIZE]

It is not about "my" understanding it is about the understanding of God's people from the time of Moses, through the founding of the church, through the early church fathers, to the present. Funny how homosexuals who know no Hebrew or Greek think they know more than the scholars who walked with Moses, followed the teaching of the apostles, and knew Hebrew and Greek.

Talmud and writings of the ECF, this thread, at this Link

 

[DaveS]

Don't you just hate it when you lose your post halfway through?!

I don't chase down anonymous links.

That is somewhat of a cop-out.

My not accepting or supporting slavery, or anything else, has no relationship to the issue of homosexuality. There is no Biblical command that I should believe, do, think, support/not support, etc., anything unrelated, in order to believe what the Bible says about homosexuality or any other issue.

There were generally two types of slaves in the O.T. bond slaves who sold themselves for a specific period of time and prisoners taken in war.

Neither, Jesus, Peter, Paul, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, James, Jude, nor any of the disciples owned slaves. Why should I? But both Paul and Jude did condemn homosexuality.

Exactly, the Bible never condemned slavery. Why then do you decide to continually condemn gay people without being logically balanced and supporting slavery? You can't pick and choose...

Logical fallacy!]

Proof of assertion please.

What is your point? Acknowledging the existence of slavery is not the same as condoning it!]

It is when you do nothing about it.
Take the following example, if you buy stolen goods knowing them to be stolen then by your logic you are not condoning stealing. However, the law would clearly disagree as you will get locked up also.

Irrelevant!

No it is not. My assertion is that homosexual prejudice is born or a fear of that which is not known. I have provided various examples to show the comparison between past prejudices and this particular prejudice and the all stopped once the true origin was known. Why then must I think any different of homosexuality?

Buying, and maintaining slaves was always the prerogative of the wealthy, who were always the minority

But the majority was clearly tolerant otherwise something would have been said. The Biblical figureheads were clearly in a position to do so, particularly as none of them really minded giving a controversial opinion.

In the Scriptures God was all about FREEING His people from slavery, not putting them INTO slavery. The only time God allowed slavery of His people, is when He was punishing them for their SINS. Slavery was a result of SIN, nothing else. So people that tried to justify slavery (based on color) using Scripture, were contradicting themselves. God NEVER punished people because of their color, He punished them because of their SIN. That's why for many years those generations of people were in slavery, because of their SIN, not their color.

People who justified the slavery of a group of people based on their color, twisted the Scriptures. Slavery wasn't allowed by God based on color, it was allowed based on sin. However, there's no "twisting of Scripture" required when it comes to homosexuality. It's very clear about it being a sinful act. So other than the fact that they are both the results of sin, there's no biblical comparision between slavery and homosexuality.

So to answer DaveS question of why we dont accept and support slavery....that's because the slavery that was in Bible was a result of sin, and it was a form of punishment by God for being disobedient. God never wanted His people to be in bondage, but because of sin He allowed slavery to come into the world. Unlike the slavery that we've seen in the last few centuries, which had nothing to do with sin, but with the color of people's skin. The two types of slavery are very different, and people perverted the Word of God to justify enslaving Africans.

But i do understand that everything that happens that is negative, God allows it to happen for a reason...and im in no position to question His methods.

So all those other people who were in slavery apart from the Israelites were ok? I find it distinctly unfair and unjust that God could condemn people to terrible lives of subservience simply because they were unfortunate enough not to be Jewish. I may also point that many people were born and lived their entire lives in slavery - what gives God the right to condemn these people to suffering who could not possibly have done anything wrong previously?

 

[tulc]

Neither, Jesus, Peter, Paul, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, James, Jude, nor any of the disciples owned slaves.

uhmmm Philemon?
tulc(just a thought)

 

[Time4AChange]

So all those other people who were in slavery apart from the Israelites were ok? I find it distinctly unfair and unjust that God could condemn people to terrible lives of subservience simply because they were unfortunate enough not to be Jewish. I may also point that many people were born and lived their entire lives in slavery - what gives God the right to condemn these people to suffering who could not possibly have done anything wrong previously?

Hey DaveS.

Like i said in my previous post, "That's why for many years those GENERATIONS of people were in slavery, because of their SIN, not their color". And if you study the Bible, ANYONE who was enslaved was because of their sin or because of the sins of their ancestors. There were generations of people who were in slavery all because of what their ancestors did, that's just the way it was, and in alot of instances it still is that way today. What do you think it is when a child is born into this world, and their parent have squandered their life and have nothing to provide for that child? It's a form of slavery that the innocent child has to endure because of what their parents did. That child is enslaved to living in horrible conditions, not being able to get an proper education, and the list goes on and on. You and i both know all too well that that type of slavery can go on for MANY generations, and many innocent kids are born into that type of slavery.

It's the same thing, just in different times.

That's what gives God "the right to condemn people". That and the simple fact that He's God. He can do what He wants, and thankfully what He wants is to see everyone accept Him so that they don't have to be in slavery. There are many forms of slavery, dont forget that.

And if you think that God doesn't have the right to condemn people to suffering who could not possibly have done anything wrong previously.....then we'd ALL be destined for hell, because Jesus Christ would not have been sacrificed. Jesus did NOTHING that was wrong, yet He had to suffer more than anyone. So is God wrong for letting His completely sinless Son die that horrible death on the cross?

 

[kulenok]

Well yes, I believe that they are wrong, because the Bible specificly says gayness is wrong in the first place. But it is all up to them to live their lives, because it is their lives, they can do whatever they want. I won't say it is right though.

 

[DaveS]

Hey DaveS.

Like i said in my previous post, "That's why for many years those GENERATIONS of people were in slavery, because of their SIN, not their color". And if you study the Bible, ANYONE who was enslaved was because of their sin or because of the sins of their ancestors. There were generations of people who were in slavery all because of what their ancestors did, that's just the way it was, and in alot of instances it still is that way today. What do you think it is when a child is born into this world, and their parent have squandered their life and have nothing to provide for that child? It's a form of slavery that the innocent child has to endure because of what their parents did. That child is enslaved to living in horrible conditions, not being able to get an proper education, and the list goes on and on. You and i both know all too well that that type of slavery can go on for MANY generations, and many innocent kids are born into that type of slavery.

If this is God-caused then how is it fair? Don't forget that slavery would completely seperate people from the social world and thus prevent these people from converting to Judaism or Christianity. I just don't see how it is fair that God should cause generations of a family to suffer terrible lives simply because of mistakes made by the parents. This actually seems rather satanic and nothing like the free-will God that I have gotten to know. Eternal Hellfire is bad enough but to force them to live their non-Hell life in Hell also is just a tad extreme is it not?

That's what gives God "the right to condemn people". That and the simple fact that He's God. He can do what He wants, and thankfully what He wants is to see everyone accept Him so that they don't have to be in slavery. There are many forms of slavery, dont forget that.

And if you think that God doesn't have the right to condemn people to suffering who could not possibly have done anything wrong previously.....then we'd ALL be destined for hell, because Jesus Christ would not have been sacrificed. Jesus did NOTHING that was wrong, yet He had to suffer more than anyone. So is God wrong for letting His completely sinless Son die that horrible death on the cross?

Jesus is God; don't forget that. This is the God that I know - sacrificing himself so that we may get to know God NOT randomly punishing people in this life as well as the next. I don't think God punishes anyone at any time actually but that is a debate for another day!

 

[Brieuse]

It is not about "my" understanding it is about the understanding of God's people from the time of Moses, through the founding of the church, through the early church fathers, to the present. Funny how homosexuals who know no Hebrew or Greek think they know more than the scholars who walked with Moses, followed the teaching of the apostles, and knew Hebrew and Greek.

Talmud and writings of the ECF, this thread, at this Link

I don't see anything condemning loving monogamous homosexuals in your link.

 

[Time4AChange]

If this is God-caused then how is it fair? Don't forget that slavery would completely seperate people from the social world and thus prevent these people from converting to Judaism or Christianity. I just don't see how it is fair that God should cause generations of a family to suffer terrible lives simply because of mistakes made by the parents. This actually seems rather satanic and nothing like the free-will God that I have gotten to know. Eternal Hellfire is bad enough but to force them to live their non-Hell life in Hell also is just a tad extreme is it not?
Jesus is God; don't forget that. This is the God that I know - sacrificing himself so that we may get to know God NOT randomly punishing people in this life as well as the next. I don't think God punishes anyone at any time actually but that is a debate for another day!

I had a feeling that this was what was confusing you. You're looking at God as if He has to do things that WE see as "fair". The Bible says that God's ways are not like ours. That means that we are NOT going to understand why He does what He does sometimes. The sooner you accept that, the easier it's going to be for you. By your responses, you also seem to think of God as someone who is all about making people happy. That's not true my brother. God does punish and chastise you when you deserve it, just like any loving father would. If God didnt punish or correct me when i was going the wrong way, then i would question how much He really loves me.

Also, Jesus was God (by traits, not physically God...they are different persons and that's where the trinity comes in)....but also Jesus was 100% man. He felt pain just like we would feel pain, so the death that He suffered was just as painful and unbearable for Him as it would have been for you or me. He endured all of that as a man, with feelings and emotions just like any other man. And yet he was still sinless, even to His death...but yet He died. That's what you call unfair, but was it necessary? absolutely. Just like people being in slavery might be unfair, i believe that if God allowed it, then it was 100% necessary. Im not in any kind of position to question or even understand my Creator. He is far more smarter than i am and He sees the bigger picture. Anything that He's done or allowed, He has His reasons for doing it....and i thank Him for that.