are gays wrong?

[dayhiker]

Do you actually believe that misrepresentation, dishonesty, and quoting out-of-context proves anything? Homosexual rape is NEVER mentioned in the ECF I quoted. Nor did the Jewish scholars from the time of Moses, ca. 1200 BC, ever mention "homosexual rape." Are you going to try to pretend that you know more about the Hebrew scriptures than any Jewish scholar in the past 3000 years +/-? and the early church including the disciples of John, and their followers?

Here again the summary of interpretation by the early church.

The early church interpreted [SIZE=+1]αρσενοκοιτης[/SIZE]/arsenokoités variously as, “”sodomy,” “filth of sodomy,” lawless lust, “lust,” “impurity,” “works of the flesh,” “carnal,” “lawless intercourse,” “shameless,” “burning with insane love for boys,” “licentiousness,” “co-habitors with males,” “lusters after mankind”, etc.

This wouldn't be the first thing the early church got wrong!

Like the tower escetics and their interpretation of coming out of the world.

dayhiker

 

[DaveS]

I had a feeling that this was what was confusing you. You're looking at God as if He has to do things that WE see as "fair". The Bible says that God's ways are not like ours. That means that we are NOT going to understand why He does what He does sometimes. The sooner you accept that, the easier it's going to be for you. By your responses, you also seem to think of God as someone who is all about making people happy. That's not true my brother. God does punish and chastise you when you deserve it, just like any loving father would. If God didnt punish or correct me when i was going the wrong way, then i would question how much He really loves me.

Also, Jesus was God (by traits, not physically God...they are different persons and that's where the trinity comes in)....but also Jesus was 100% man. He felt pain just like we would feel pain, so the death that He suffered was just as painful and unbearable for Him as it would have been for you or me. He endured all of that as a man, with feelings and emotions just like any other man. And yet he was still sinless, even to His death...but yet He died. That's what you call unfair, but was it necessary? absolutely. Just like people being in slavery might be unfair, i believe that if God allowed it, then it was 100% necessary. Im not in any kind of position to question or even understand my Creator. He is far more smarter than i am and He sees the bigger picture. Anything that He's done or allowed, He has His reasons for doing it....and i thank Him for that.

I do not call the suffering that Jesus undertook unfair as God (doesn't really matter if it was God as Jesus... still God) chose to undergo this in order to make it possible for us to be saved. He chose to make himself suffer for the good of others. This issue is completely different to what you are asserting which is that God punishes people simply because he thinks you are going down the wrong path. Experience tells me that if someone is going down the wrong path then they will not exactly appreciate being punished for it! If you kick a dog for eating your shoes it will fear you for it - this 'fear' relationship portrays a type of bully God who wants to force us into spiritual submission. It just doesn't seem like a benevolent God!

 

[Time4AChange]

I do not call the suffering that Jesus undertook unfair as God (doesn't really matter if it was God as Jesus... still God) chose to undergo this in order to make it possible for us to be saved. He chose to make himself suffer for the good of others. This issue is completely different to what you are asserting which is that God punishes people simply because he thinks you are going down the wrong path. Experience tells me that if someone is going down the wrong path then they will not exactly appreciate being punished for it! If you kick a dog for eating your shoes it will fear you for it - this 'fear' relationship portrays a type of bully God who wants to force us into spiritual submission. It just doesn't seem like a benevolent God!

Im sorry but i disagree. What they did to Jesus was COMPLETELY unfair. He deserved nothing that they did to Him, I'M the one that deserved to be crucified on that cross, YOU deserved to be crucified on that cross, not Jesus. That would've been what's "fair". I understand it being necessary for Him to die, but calling it "fair" for an innocent man to suffer for my sins? I dont think so. That's why Jesus is to be so greatly praised, cuz only He would have done something like that for us.

So according to you, God shouldn't punish anyone? People can just do whatever they want to do, and get away with it...no need for brokenness, no need for a repentant heart, God should just "let it slide" because He's supposed to be this loving, gentle old man sitting in a throne?........God's love requires Him to be fair, and just. The bible says Judgement is in His hands, He's a Jealous God, He is a God that is capable of great wrath that He WILL pour it out on this world...dont be fooled into thinkin God is just going to sit back and do nothing about sin.

As for fear, it's VERY NECESSARY. But dont take my word for it

Psalms 34:11- Come my children, listen to me, I will teach you to fear the Lord.
Psalms 89:7- In the council of the holy ones, God is greatly feared.
Psalms 76:7-Thou, even thou, art to be feared: and who may stand in thy sight when once thou art angry.
Isaiah 8:12-13- Neither fear ye their fear, nor be afraid, sanctify the Lord of hosts Himself, and let Him be your fear, and let Him be your dread.
Matthew 10:28- And fear not them which kill the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in Hell.
Psalms 111:10- The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and they who live by it grow in understanding.

I suggest that you spend some more time in your Word my brother....Im saying that because i care about you, and you seem to have to wrong idea about God. And just keep in mind that God is always going to be God, no matter what you or I "think" He should be like. We could "think" that He doesn't punish anyone, but that doesn't change the fact that He does. What we think God should be like doesn't determine who He is. He's the same yesterday, today and forevermore. Us thinking any different won't change Him. My advice would be to get into the Word, spend time praying and get to know the God you serve. I love you brother. God bless.

 

[Der Alte]

uhmmm Philemon?
tulc(just a thought)

What is the point of your thought? Hmmm? Philemon ws not one of the 12 or the 70 AFAIK nor did he write any books in the N.T. so I don't see any relevance. Acknowledgement is not condoning.

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]This wouldn't be the first thing the early church got wrong!

Like the tower escetics and their interpretation of coming out of the world.

dayhiker[/SIZE]

Who and where? If you want to discuss the ECF quote the appropriate passage and name the source, sufficiently that I can find it. And OBTW this is a logical fallacy, because this other thing is wrong, according to you, then what I quoted "might" be wrong therefore you assume that it is in fact wrong.

Were one to actually read my post instead of making automatonic logically fallacious put downs, one might see that two of those ECF were disciples of John, Polycarp and Ignatius, and one was a student of Polycarp. So it will take more that your assumption to show that they were wrong.

Much of our understanding of Biblical Greek comes from those early church fathers whom you arbitrarily assume were wrong.

 

[DaveS]

Im sorry but i disagree. What they did to Jesus was COMPLETELY unfair. He deserved nothing that they did to Him, I'M the one that deserved to be crucified on that cross, YOU deserved to be crucified on that cross, not Jesus. That would've been what's "fair". I understand it being necessary for Him to die, but calling it "fair" for an innocent man to suffer for my sins? I dont think so. That's why Jesus is to be so greatly praised, cuz only He would have done something like that for us.

Ultimately though it was God's choice to do this and although it is 'unfair' in that he did not do anything to deserve it He did choose to. This is not taking anything away from the act itself; I just can't see how God who has experienced that suffering can inflict pain on the people He is supposed to love so much.

So according to you, God shouldn't punish anyone? People can just do whatever they want to do, and get away with it...no need for brokenness, no need for a repentant heart, God should just "let it slide" because He's supposed to be this loving, gentle old man sitting in a throne?........God's love requires Him to be fair, and just. The bible says Judgement is in His hands, He's a Jealous God, He is a God that is capable of great wrath that He WILL pour it out on this world...dont be fooled into thinkin God is just going to sit back and do nothing about sin.

I believe we decide our own fate; if we allow things to slip in our life then God will leave us to do so. However, slipping away in this life will stop us from recognising God in the next. I believe that fate is justice enough.

As for fear, it's VERY NECESSARY. But dont take my word for it

Psalms 34:11- Come my children, listen to me, I will teach you to fear the Lord.
Psalms 89:7- In the council of the holy ones, God is greatly feared.
Psalms 76:7-Thou, even thou, art to be feared: and who may stand in thy sight when once thou art angry.
Isaiah 8:12-13- Neither fear ye their fear, nor be afraid, sanctify the Lord of hosts Himself, and let Him be your fear, and let Him be your dread.
Matthew 10:28- And fear not them which kill the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in Hell.
Psalms 111:10- The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and they who live by it grow in understanding.

Only one there is actually from the NT and that seems to actually be referring to Satan...

 

[Time4AChange]

Im not going to respond to the rest of your post, it just kind of seems repetitive now....i've said all that God has led me to say regarding that stuff.

Only one there is actually from the NT and that seems to actually be referring to Satan...

But this, what difference does it make if it's from the OT or the NT? Lord help us understand.

Once again my brother, you really need to get into your Word....you're not even sure who the Scripture is talking about. You're confusing God with the devil, because you think that Matt. 10:28 seems to harsh. Well, it's not. That's the God we serve. Not gentle and sweet all the time is He? He's the one that is able to destroy both body and soul in hell. Not the devil. The devil has no authority over a child of God, and he has no power to send anyone to hell. That power is given to God.

If you need further reasurrance, here's some more Scriptures about fearing God. And they're all from the NT

2Co 7:1- Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
Eph 6:5-Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singlesness of your heart as unto Christ
Heb 12:21-And so terrible was the sight (of God), that Moses said i exceedingly fear and quake.
1Peter2:17-Honor all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the King.

There's many verses, but i think you get the point. Once again, you can't make God into what you "think" He should be. I suggest that you get to know Him, so you don't have a false idea of the God you're serving. God bless my brother.

 

[tulc]

What is the point of your thought? Hmmm? Philemon ws not one of the 12 or the 70 AFAIK nor did he write any books in the N.T. so I don't see any relevance. Acknowledgement is not condoning.

My point was Philemon wasn't told to free his slave, but to treat him as a brother (granted, a brother who had to do everything you told him to do) but we have to remember slavery wasn't based on race back then, and looking back with a 21st century sensibility it doesn't make sense to say: "They were against slavery!" because they weren't, it was part of their culture and accepted as a fact of life. And honestly? it smacks a little of picking and choosing. That was my point.
tulc(will try and be clearer in the future)

 

[david_x]

This is a complete insult to me.

An addiction?

please, you don't have a clue.

if only, sadly i do know.

 

[DaveS]

But this, what difference does it make if it's from the OT or the NT? Lord help us understand.

The OT is largely irrelevant to Christian life. It is the difference between the old and the new law.

Once again my brother, you really need to get into your Word....you're not even sure who the Scripture is talking about. You're confusing God with the devil, because you think that Matt. 10:28 seems to harsh. Well, it's not. That's the God we serve. Not gentle and sweet all the time is He? He's the one that is able to destroy both body and soul in hell. Not the devil. The devil has no authority over a child of God, and he has no power to send anyone to hell. That power is given to God.

Hang on a second... just take a look at Matt. 10:28 a second:
"And fear not them which kill the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in Hell."
I was not aware that God spent much of His time in Hell...

 

[LostUntilSaved]

My cousin was a homosexual. He died not to long ago. He had aids. His bf committed suicide in front of him. I don't know if he believed in God or not. I hope he asked God to forgive him before he died. I hope he is in heaven.

 

[DaveS]

My cousin was a homosexual. He died not to long ago. He had aids. His bf committed suicide in front of him. I don't know if he believed in God or not. I hope he asked God to forgive him before he died. I hope he is in heaven.

I'm sorry to hear that, it sounds as if your family has gone through a bit of a tough time recently. Remember that time is a great healer and the hurt will start to fade, even if you feel it isn't now.
On a positive note I hear the AIDS vaccine is not too far off which should hopefully save other people going through so much tragedy. This is most certainly something positive to look forward too.

 

[Time4AChange]

The OT is largely irrelevant to Christian life. It is the difference between the old and the new law.



Hang on a second... just take a look at Matt. 10:28 a second:
"And fear not them which kill the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in Hell."
I was not aware that God spent much of His time in Hell...

God is not in hell Dave, i know you know that, so obviously you're misinterpreting the Scripture. Why would you even post something like that, you trying to show me up or you trying to say the Word of God is wrong? That verse is saying that He is able to destroy body and soul in hell. The body and soul is what's in hell Dave, not God.

Just spend sometime in your Word, cuz you seem confused...and im not trying to do God's job. You seek Him and He'll give you all the answers my brother.

And the OT is still very relevant to Christianity, dont follow the hype of "disregard the OT". That sort of thinking is not biblical.

Either way...it was fun talking to you and i hope that you seek God in all honesty and sincerity, thru His Word, and prayer, etc. and He'll show you everything you need to know. God bless, have a nice day.

 

[DaveS]

God is not in hell Dave, i know you know that, so obviously you're misinterpreting the Scripture. Why would you even post something like that, you trying to show me up or you trying to say the Word of God is wrong? That verse is saying that He able to destroy body and soul in hell. The body and soul is what's in hell Dave, not God.

Read the words "fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Hell." This would certainly indicate that the one who does the destroying is in Hell... if it were God doing the destroying then that would indicate that He has some control of Hell which places Satan in a very interesting position of something approaching henchman!

And the OT is still very relevant to Christianity, dont follow the hype of "disregard the OT". That sort of thinking is not biblical.

In what particular ways? I'm not saying that it is completely irrelevant; however, as the OT is the history of the Israelites while the NT is the future of Christianity I know which one I'm going to deduce my moral values from!