Are Family Run Churches OK?

[nightingale]

We went to a fledgling church for three years that was staffed only by family members. All family members were on the church payroll, and the church was run like a business with the pastor as the president of the company. A printed budget was scarce and church members were ostrasized for asking questions about financial accountability. The church membership grew to 200+, and the pastor was rumored to be drawing quite a salary. How common is this? Would you say this is a pastor's right but maybe unethical?

 

[Stuco]

First time I have ever heard of something like that. Sound like he's preaching "Praise the Lord and send me your money!". If he is withholding financial information from the church then that right there is bad in itself. Shows that he may only be spending it on himself and mabye more seats for more people, and more money. I can tell you I wouldnt go there or give him my money.

 

[nightingale]

First time I have ever heard of something like that. Sound like he's preaching "Praise the Lord and send me your money!". If he is withholding financial information from the church then that right there is bad in itself. Shows that he may only be spending it on himself and mabye more seats for more people, and more money. I can tell you I wouldnt go there or give him my money.

We did leave - but he has a very charasmatic style that will draw people in i'm sure. I hear of even tv ministers who do this - but there must be more accountability right?

If you have say, 800,000 members, does it seem biblical to draw a salary based on the amount of tithes the church draws in? In this example, maybe $300,000-$400,000 per year?

 

[Blackguard_]

We went to a fledgling church for three years that was staffed only by family members. All family members were on the church payroll,

Not necesarily bad if the family members are qualified. Although excludijng non-family members from leadership is a bad sign.

and the church was run like a business with the pastor as the president of the company.

Like every other church, aside from ones that make him more like Chairman of the Board.

A printed budget was scarce and church members were ostrasized for asking questions about financial accountability.

bad.

The church membership grew to 200+, and the pastor was rumored to be drawing quite a salary. How common is this? Would you say this is a pastor's right but maybe unethical?

I have no idea how common it is, but I do not know what a good salary for a pastor is. It is a poastor's right to use money he recieves as he sees fit, unless he is breaking a budget or other spending promises, but it is unethical to give yourself more than you deserve.

 

[Stuco]

We did leave - but he has a very charasmatic style that will draw people in i'm sure. I hear of even tv ministers who do this - but there must be more accountability right?

If you have say, 800,000 members, does it seem biblical to draw a salary based on the amount of tithes the church draws in? In this example, maybe $300,000-$400,000 per year?

Well I dont know if it is biblical or not but if any church had that many you might want to take the money and use it to get you ten pastors. But mostly it is dependent apon the church. What ever they feel they want to give him let them give him it.

 

[peepnklown]

I am going to start a Church business now.

 

[Stuco]

I am going to start a Church business now.

You do that.

 

[nightingale]

I am going to start a Church business now.

unfortunately, you would probably be fairly successful

 

[nightingale]

Well I dont know if it is biblical or not but if any church had that many you might want to take the money and use it to get you ten pastors. But mostly it is dependent apon the church. What ever they feel they want to give him let them give him it.

It just doesn't seem right - but, i guess if the church was very straightforward about financial accountability and also had a board with a checks and balances kind of power, it could be more ethical for the pastor to draw a huge salary.

 

[Nymphalidae]

I am going to start a Church business now.

People think that magnets have healing powers. Tricking people out of their money is not a challenge.

 

[peepnklown]

I will produce a show like the 700 club and be a millionaire.

 

[linchen]

I know a few churches who have most of the leading people
taken from the pastor's close family.

I don't think this is right.
If there are other gifted and dedicated christians it will be
better to give the priority to non family members.

Strangely enough if you go to far it can even happen the opposite.
Because the pastor of the church is... let's say your brother,
you can be cut off from the leadership just to keep people
happy.

I saw this happen once.
So it's not an easy issue to sort out.

 

[Edouard]

A church should always be willing to disclose finances, because the money you give, you give to God as an offering, not a person!

Your Brother in Christ, David
aka son of a pk.

 

[Ledifni]

We went to a fledgling church for three years that was staffed only by family members. All family members were on the church payroll, and the church was run like a business with the pastor as the president of the company. A printed budget was scarce and church members were ostrasized for asking questions about financial accountability. The church membership grew to 200+, and the pastor was rumored to be drawing quite a salary. How common is this? Would you say this is a pastor's right but maybe unethical?

It's certainly a pastor's right to draw salary. Whether it's inethical would depend, really, on the pastor's intentions. If he is drawing salary simply to support himself and his family while he does his true work, then it is not. But if his intention is to make himself rich by running a church, then his priority is the money and his actions are not ethical. In my opinion.

 

[ChristianCenturion]

We went to a fledgling church for three years that was staffed only by family members. All family members were on the church payroll, and the church was run like a business with the pastor as the president of the company. A printed budget was scarce and church members were ostrasized for asking questions about financial accountability. The church membership grew to 200+, and the pastor was rumored to be drawing quite a salary. How common is this? Would you say this is a pastor's right but maybe unethical?

I would say that if it (that specific church) didn't have issues of wrong doing, then it certainly has the potential for such. Having a large portion of the leadership be tied together with family loyalties and not taking measures to show accountability or having preemptive steps against false accusations are all unwise practices. The family loyalty issue is too tempting when trying to be just and not be given to favoritism. In general, the church should have better means by which to show that they are above reproach and I believe most churches are accountable to a state or head church, group, etc. and if there is suspicious behavior, they may wish to be informed of such - scandal does more harm than good in these situations and it is that church denomination, name, Chrisitianity in general that will pay the price.

All that being said, it is not an issue of clear cut wrong doing either. There are also many churches started in poorer nations that the core members are the only mature Christians around. You can't simply place young Christians in a place of authority just because a slot needs to be filled.

More information and action would be called for in this kind of thing...

 

[nightingale]

I will produce a show like the 700 club and be a millionaire.

you're not very creative are you - lol! you could do better than that couldn't you??

 

[nightingale]

It's certainly a pastor's right to draw salary. Whether it's inethical would depend, really, on the pastor's intentions. If he is drawing salary simply to support himself and his family while he does his true work, then it is not. But if his intention is to make himself rich by running a church, then his priority is the money and his actions are not ethical. In my opinion.

I don't know if getting rich is the overall goal in this case, but living an upscale lifestyle seems to be. Here are some other examples that just didn't seem right:

Creating a teen leadership group for which trips to Europe were earned by church attendance. The pastor's teens, their older sibling chaperone and the church accountants' teens were the only ones that went. Once the church started growing pretty rapidly, the teen leadership incentives were dismantled.

The church gave birthday parties for the pastor's wife so that all the ladies brought gifts and food to the church to celebrate. (same thing for all the family members for college send-off parties, baby showers, etc.)

The church members were expected to volunteer to do everything the church needed such as painting, carpet cleaning, custodian work, etc., so that very little of the "church's" money had to be used.

Mission giving was limited to special offering collections and programs such as an Angel Tree or Samaritin's Purse kind of stuff.

There were many more examples...

I don't know why it took so long to see the red flags.

 

[ChristianCenturion]

I don't know if getting rich is the overall goal in this case, but living an upscale lifestyle seems to be. Here are some other examples that just didn't seem right:

Creating a teen leadership group for which trips to Europe were earned by church attendance. The pastor's teens, their older sibling chaperone and the church accountants' teens were the only ones that went. Once the church started growing pretty rapidly, the teen leadership incentives were dismantled.

Some hair-brain antics are done to encourage attendance and growth; while this isn't exactly a smart thing for a small church to undertake financially, it isn't exactly criminal. It is sad that some leaderships fall into hype and gimmicks to get the end result, but I wouldn't condemn everything like this outright. As long as everyone knew the offer stood, it isn't exactly foul play. It could also be the reason why they have grown in number to any given degree.

The church gave birthday parties for the pastor's wife so that all the ladies brought gifts and food to the church to celebrate. (same thing for all the family members for college send-off parties, baby showers, etc.)

This is a common way to show appreciation for the pastor's better half. The spouse after all is sharing their mate with usually a large amount of others and their problems. Much of the work behind the scenes also go left unrewarded or acknowledged. Though we may serve out of love for God and are honored to do so, the occasional buffet is nice to do if nothing else than a chance to have fellowship together under another cause.

The church members were expected to volunteer to do everything the church needed such as painting, carpet cleaning, custodian work, etc., so that very little of the "church's" money had to be used.

I see nothing wrong with that. My church has done that as well so that we could use the funds for doing the Lords work rather than taking care of a building in a way that we are capable of doing ourselves. Some however thought that they were 'above' doing things like that... we didn't want their help if they could do it joyfully.

Mission giving was limited to special offering collections and programs such as an Angel Tree or Samaritin's Purse kind of stuff.

Some budgets are established beforehand as to what charity or causes they will take on. The common and seasonal others that come by are usually done by a free will offering. We can't give to every cause all at once and I don't see this as being unusual.

There were many more examples...

I don't know why it took so long to see the red flags.

They could be red flags, but I wouldn't be too quick to lay out what could be false accusations either. If you don't have something substantial and aren't willing to follow up on your suspicions, then all this is simply gossip and shouldn't be something to 'feed into'. IMO

 

[e=mv^2]

Anytime that a church lacks a central earthly authority you run risks. In my opinion the two you face most often are:

#1 bad doctrine
Without anyone to be accountable to doctrine can be compromised

#2 fiscal irresponsibility
Pastor controls the payroll is a bad thing.

In and of themselves there is not a problem with homechurches you just have to remain awake and stay out of the ether.

 

[nightingale]

They could be red flags, but I wouldn't be too quick to lay out what could be false accusations either. If you don't have something substantial and aren't willing to follow up on your suspicions, then all this is simply gossip and shouldn't be something to 'feed into'. IMO

While I appreciate your counter thoughts, the accusations against this church leadership are neither false nor simple gossip. Literally half of the church split from it after only 3-1/2 years because of the allegations I mentioned and much more that I haven't mentioned.

The purpose of this thread was to discuss how family run churches should or shouldn't operate. I've never been involved with a church like this before or since, and it is just a puzzling notion to me.