Are "certain" video games unholy?

[chris777]

but what about relating video games to biblical principles? How do video game relate to a passage such as Ephesians 5:11 that states to avoid darkness and expose it, and darkness including murder, impure and sexual things, witchcraft.....of which some video games have elements of.

why is imitation of sin something a christian should indulge in?

 

[Digit]

Heya SymphonicaX.

What if the sexual game was as popular as Battlefield 2 and What if you played the sexual game with the intent of winning against the opposing side and not lusting? Would you still play it?

I don't think popularity factors into it, but I understand what you are saying. No I wouldn't play it, as I said I don't believe that the sort of game you are describing has a beneficial effect on our character. I see a link. In no way does playing BF2, lead me on to thoughts of murder or killing people. Whereas playing an adult game, leads me on to thoughts of lust and temptation. Just by it's nature it would. A likewise example would be, why would I play BF2 and not Manhunt, when both contain what you are deeming to be murder? And in fact, that raises another point, why is it murder? It isn't. We have to recognise that it is not real and we have to move away from the idea that doing something in a virtual world, is as inherently sinful as if we did it in real life. The life of a player character in a game is nothing more than a number attached to a variable that controls how long another player can control him for. In real life murder has drastic and very real consequences, in a game killing another player will only ever have consequences on your character as a person.

Do you take the victory graciuosly? Do you take defeat as graciously? Do you commend other players and encourage your team? These are all things that have real effects on us in the real world. As opposed to someone who gets immediately angry, swears at other players and clearly demonstrates that when things go wrong, they struggle with keeping their cool.

The reason I ask this is because God condemns murder, and in some games we are called to commit murder to win. So what difference is there between murdering to win and having sex to win, in a game setting?

What you are exposed to, and what affect it has on your character as a person. Certain games contain extreme violence, and just as I will not play any adult game as I don't want to view that sort of material, the same is said for games with violence in that I will turn the gore settings down/off.

It seems as if we are playing with sin in our minds rather than physically committing it. It's obvious that we sin when we lust, so I'm wondering if there's a difference if we commit murder for fun to win, and that being sin?

Lust is being driven to action by a strong desire or overpowering urge, regardless of the consequences or impact on others. It's about selfishness and possession. Yes, we sin when we lust, if we fulfill all those criteria. If we simply want something, or look at something with desire but turn away, we have not sinned. I just needed to clarify that. I think the problem is that you still view one player killing another in game as murder. It isn't murder. Just as having sex with an ingame character isn't adultery. Or just as playing an adventure game where you lie to an in game character, isn't lying - all in terms of sins. We cannot commit virtual sins. Sin is about our character and our actions in real life in this world under God's rule.

How do you think participating in these games, films, books relate to the scripture in Eph 5:11: "1Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them."

Ok, good, taking it to scripture is a good call. I wholly agree with that passage, and to relate it to computer games we need to recognise what they are. They are basically a make-believe world we we can indulge in competitions or adventures, where we can be heroes or villians and where we can do these things without any impact on the real world. Anything that crosses those boundaries is in question, and as such, we can recognise that things in games are mere programming expressions that create images and actually cannot affect our spiritual lives, whereas real world sin most certainly will affect our spiritual lives.

All the passages in scripture that talk about guarding ourselves, do so because the things they mention will take us away from God in real life. Like witchcraft for example or sexual sin. Yet we are able to read books, watch movies and play games, all of which will contribute to our character, yet have no real impact on our spiritual life with God. This is why I feel it comes down to the why. Do I play a game for wholesome reasons? Do I feel anything in it, contains a message I should not propogate. Should I expose myself to questionable content? Those are the questions I ask when looking at a game to buy and play.

Darkness is murder, lust, rage, etc. If these games contain these elements and even if do participate in these actions for the fun of winning and no intent of ever physically engaging in those activities, are we still participating in darkness?

If we cater to unwholesome activities that focus on negative aspects by using these devices, then no, we should not. Manhunt is a great example again, why play a game that is solely about stalking and killing people. Yet The Ship, an excellent multiplayer game, is all about stalking and killing other players, however they handle it in an incredible way. It's like multiplayer Cluedo, and the emphasis on the game is using your mind to outwit your opponent and evade your killer. Forgot to mention that, all players are told to kill someone (just one person) and all players are being stalked by another player.

Do you see the difference here at all? Where the focus lies and how it could impact you? If you google screenshots of the two games, you will soon see what each game values as imporant. If BF2 allowed you to grab your opponent and skewer his eyes out with a knife, I would no doubt not play it. Somewhere, the focus has shifted from team based combat game, to over-the-top gratuitous violence game. I love team based games, I hate gratuitous violence. I loved parts of the film 300, yet other parts left a distinctly bad taste in my mouth, and I wouldn't watch it again.

Cheers,
Digit

 

[SymphonicaX]

why is imitation of sin something a christian should indulge in?

see that's where I am stumped! lol

I haven't heard a good response against that. Someone mentioned that it depends why you are playing the game that imitates sins, and if you're playing it to win and not indulge in sin and aren't affect by it or influenced by it, then it's ok...But still the games have imitations of sin.

Would a game such as Halo be holy at all?

 

[Digit]

but what about relating video games to biblical principles? How do video game relate to a passage such as Ephesians 5:11 that states to avoid darkness and expose it, and darkness including murder, impure and sexual things, witchcraft.....of which some video games have elements of.

I think you pretty much answered this already.

We need to find which games these are. Spells and magic in games are nothing more than particle effects that allow you action in one way or another, they are no different in their nature than the special effects in movies and they can have no more impact on your life than a firework can.

You need to go to the reasons and motives you play games. In addition I get a great sense of satisfaction in games like Oblivion when I help some poor NPC, and he is tremendously grateful, and I can deny all reward for my action. On a similar front, I enjoyed defending a merchants shop against thieves. These things made me feel good about doing good deeds. Yet that's not to say I will never steal in a game. I really enjoyed sneaking around in Oblivion and stealing from NPC houses - why is this different?

Well first there are no consequences in real life. God provided laws for us to follow to protect us from the sin that the fall introduced. Otherwise we would constantly create misery for each other. Being killed - I am sure - really sucks. As does having things taken from you or being cheated on and so on down the line. They have real world consequences and effects on us and everyone around us. God values us all as individuals, He does not value some more than others.

Secondly I enjoy it in games like Oblivion because of the tense atmosphere whilst trying not to get caught, the different style of gameplay where my character is physically weak, yet very agile and adept and sneaking.

If at any point doing these things in games, compelled me to do them in real life, then we run the risk of our spiritual life being affected. This we should stray from, it's the darkness that the Ephesians passage you mentioned talks about. Again I will bring it up, why do you play some games over others? It's the why that is important, because our actions speak to our character.

Cheers,
Digit

 

[SymphonicaX]

Lust is being driven to action by a strong desire or overpowering urge, regardless of the consequences or impact on others. It's about selfishness and possession. Yes, we sin when we lust, if we fulfill all those criteria. If we simply want something, or look at something with desire but turn away, we have not sinned. I just needed to clarify that. I think the problem is that you still view one player killing another in game as murder. It isn't murder. Just as having sex with an ingame character isn't adultery. Or just as playing an adventure game where you lie to an in game character, isn't lying - all in terms of sins. We cannot commit virtual sins. Sin is about our character and our actions in real life in this world under God's rule.

what if you didn't have the urge to lust while you played the porn game? Would you still play it?

I am confused about what side to take, but one thing I've noticed in our western society is that we are desensitized to violence, yet we are quick to point the finger when we see sexually explicit things.

Do you think this has a take on your view of things?

Ok, good, taking it to scripture is a good call. I wholly agree with that passage, and to relate it to computer games we need to recognise what they are. They are basically a make-believe world we we can indulge in competitions or adventures, where we can be heroes or villians and where we can do these things without any impact on the real world. Anything that crosses those boundaries is in question, and as such, we can recognise that things in games are mere programming expressions that create images and actually cannot affect our spiritual lives, whereas real world sin most certainly will affect our spiritual lives.

All the passages in scripture that talk about guarding ourselves, do so because the things they mention will take us away from God in real life. Like witchcraft for example or sexual sin. Yet we are able to read books, watch movies and play games, all of which will contribute to our character, yet have no real impact on our spiritual life with God. This is why I feel it comes down to the why. Do I play a game for wholesome reasons? Do I feel anything in it, contains a message I should not propogate. Should I expose myself to questionable content? Those are the questions I ask when looking at a game to buy and play.

Like Chris says, why should we indulge ourselves in imitations of sins even if we believe it doesn't affect our character to sin?

That's what I am struggling to understand.

 

[Digit]

What if you didn't have the urge to lust while you played the porn game? Would you still play it?

I don't think I could say with any certainty that I wouldn't lust though. I would rather stray from that altogether, than risk temptation. In addition, that speaks to our sexual lives, which is something quiet personal, and I enjoy gaming as a social activity and my sex-life is something private. I wish to keep those two right where they are.

I am confused about what side to take, but one thing I've noticed in our western society is that we are desensitized to violence, yet we are quick to point the finger when we see sexually explicit things.

Do you think this has a take on your view of things?

Yes quite likely. I was always fascinated when I worked in Germany, that people were reading adult magazines on the bus and I saw a wife pass a paper with a page 3 model (topless model on page 3 of the paper) to her husband for him to look at. I was like, "Wth?!" hehe. So yes, in addition during my unsaved life, I was heavily exposed to violence and gore as I was a fan of horror movies and graphic novels. I still enjoy graphic novels and movies, yet am very particular about what I read/watch, because I know how these things affected me and I don't want to add to that side of my character anymore.

Like Chris says, why should we indulge ourselves in imitations of sins even if we believe it doesn't affect our character to sin?

That's what I've been saying. He just did it in one sentence. >_> Do you truly feel BF2 has imitations of sin, that is why they were created, to cater to that side of life, the sinful side? Do you feel that way about games like Manhunt 1 or 2 or God of War 1 or 2? I know the difference between them. I can see the good that comes from games like BF2 and how they are an enjoyable part of our lives, as much as running a marathon or competing in an archery competition. Yet when I look at the latter, I see gratuitous violence, and reinforcement of it through positive in-game rewards.

That's where I draw the line. It's when I feel the game is saying, "Here do this!" *chops someone's head off with an axe* "Yes, well done." *rewarded*.

I feel exposure to the above can really harm your real-world character over a long period of time.

Just as an aside. I met my wife online. In a game called Guild Wars, and she was the one that brought me to Christ. I firmly believe that God at that stage had had enough of trying to draw me to Him and decided to speak to me on my level, and with something I could relate too. Since becoming a Christian I've changed my of my entertainment values and some games I will stray from based on their content, setting or gameplay. I have many friends, all from online games, many who are Christian and we all enjoy playing games together.

I don't enjoy playing games because I get to simulate murdering my friends. I enjoy them for all the reasons I've mentioned before - in a nutshell - the cerebral competition and fellowship.

There is no simulation of sin there for me in the games I play, yet I have played games where they did cater to that side of it.

Think of it like this, as I mentioned above real world sin has real world consequences on your spiritual life. Actions within virtual worlds do not have real world consequences. For the moment, lets not think multiplayer games, lets go with singleplayer. Virtual actions in games, have no real world consequences on anything except you and your character. Now, do you wish to encourage goodness in your character, or evil? As soon as you can recognise that, and see what a game is promoting and why, you can make a decision to play it or not. Why do you enjoy BF2? Is there anything wrong with your reason, that warns you to stop playing it?

When you play it and you shoot a friend, do you enjoy that because you saw blood spurt from him when the bullet hit him, you like hearing his screams as he dies, you enjoy frustrating your friend and so on. We can impose many negative cause and effect sequences on our actions in games, yet do they truly represent why we play them? Or, rather, do we enjoy other things instead? Did you enjoy out-smarting your friend, using the environment to your advantage, thinking on your feet, the atmosphere, the laughter of the victory and the congratulations that followed. I see no inherently bad things in those and I am of the mind it will not affect your spiritual life, or relationship with God. If anything, it has positive effects on your character as a person.

Cheers,
Digit

 

[chris777]

see that's where I am stumped! lol

I haven't heard a good response against that. Someone mentioned that it depends why you are playing the game that imitates sins, and if you're playing it to win and not indulge in sin and aren't affect by it or influenced by it, then it's ok...But still the games have imitations of sin.

Would a game such as Halo be holy at all?

I ran into this issue watching a friend Choke someone to death in a game.

And It got me thinking, is this something we should be doing?

reducing sin to entertainment?
thus making light of it

 

[Digit]

I ran into this issue watching a friend Choke someone to death in a game.

And It got me thinking, is this something we should be doing?

reducing sin to entertainment?
thus making light of it

Yeah, that's exactly it. Why is that entertaining? For example when I was watching someone play God of War 2, and he had to repeatedly crush someones head in a doorway in order to proceed, and was rewarded for it. I was like, "Hmm... is this really a good thing?" even my non-believer friends thought that went too far.

Same with some movies, like The Saw, why is watching another's suffering entertaining? It's easy to see the direction of different movies and games from the first few moments, and to tell if that is something we should indulge in or not.

Digit

 

[chris777]

Yeah, that's exactly it. Why is that entertaining? For example when I was watching someone play God of War 2, and he had to repeatedly crush someones head in a doorway in order to proceed, and was rewarded for it. I was like, "Hmm... is this really a good thing?" even my non-believer friends thought that went too far.

Same with some movies, like The Saw, why is watching another's suffering entertaining? It's easy to see the direction of different movies and games from the first few moments, and to tell if that is something we should indulge in or not.

Digit

I am beginning to wonder (especially considering sentiment expressed by many) if it is a way of desensitizing us to sin, just as violence is becoming desensitized,

 

[Digit]

I am beginning to wonder (especially considering sentiment expressed by many) if it is a way of desensitizing us to sin, just as violence is becoming desensitized,

Funny you should mention that, there's a new film called The Ten coming out soon, which is a comedy about how bad behaviour makes for good humour. The writeup has this tacky bit which annoyed me, "Putting the sin back into cinema!" It's a small petty little thing, that someone probably thought up and decided they were very clever in doing so, yet it's all these small petty little things that add up into a message which unnerves me slightly. Hence why there are some games which I will just not even consider, and some movies and books too. In fact there was a book I came across recently called Sinful Sex, it is actually a guide to good sex, but why that title? Why is that something we should wish to elevate ourselves too? *sigh* Oh well, I guess the best we can do is make use of our time here, and help others to see the distinctions.

Cheers,
Digit

 

[chris777]

Funny you should mention that, there's a new film called The Ten coming out soon, which is a comedy about how bad behaviour makes for good humour. The writeup has this tacky bit which annoyed me, "Putting the sin back into cinema!" It's a small petty little thing, that someone probably thought up and decided they were very clever in doing so, yet it's all these small petty little things that add up into a message which unnerves me slightly. Hence why there are some games which I will just not even consider, and some movies and books too. In fact there was a book I came across recently called Sinful Sex, it is actually a guide to good sex, but why that title? Why is that something we should wish to elevate ourselves too? *sigh* Oh well, I guess the best we can do is make use of our time here, and help others to see the distinctions.

Cheers,
Digit

I have noticed small things seemingly insignificant, but take note of
recent films to use the phrase "in _______ we trust"
seems innocent and in an upcoming case "cute"
but it is nevertheless a diminishment of God.
I will be railed on it I am sure, but I still see it.
it is a surreal situation to become the enemy of what you once loved, everything you buiilt your life around,
But I find my new choice far greater.

 

[Digit]

I have noticed small things seemingly insignificant, but take note of
recent films to use the phrase "in _______ we trust"
seems innocent and in an upcoming case "cute"
but it is nevertheless a diminishment of God.
I will be railed on it I am sure, but I still see it.
it is a surreal situation to become the enemy of what you once loved, everything you buiilt your life around,
But I find my new choice far greater.

Yeah, things like that and sayings like, "That's as cool as hell!" (hell is cool now?) and the amount of blasphemy is quite shocking in many films and series.

Digit

 

[chris777]

Yeah, things like that and sayings like, "That's as cool as hell!" (hell is cool now?) and the amount of blasphemy is quite shocking in many films and series.

Digit

I am more concerned with the Christian embracement of these things.
The world has always been against God, but our embracement of its ways , along with constant justification, from those that should know better, its sad

 

[SymphonicaX]

I'm still very confused. I just don't get why we can play something that encourages violence, while we shouldn't play something that encourages fornication. Both are equal sins in God's eyes, and they should be equal to us, but it's true that we do not equate both sins the same way, at least in our human world.

How can we not have consequences in a virtual world? What if someone made a game that hated on God, yet it was as popular as World of Warcraft, how come we'd avoid that, yet not avoid something such as Grand Theft Auto or Oblivion? All three games have elements of sin, and sin where you actually commit the sin regardless of whether we wanted to sin or not.

How do we deal with this? I still don't understand.

 

[Dannager]

I'm still very confused. I just don't get why we can play something that encourages violence, while we shouldn't play something that encourages fornication. Both are equal sins in God's eyes, and they should be equal to us, but it's true that we do not equate both sins the same way, at least in our human world.

Okay, hold up. You keep bringing up the "it's the same as playing something that encourages fornication" argument yet you're not allowing discussion of whether fornication is sin. Where, exactly, do you expect the discussion to go? It's pretty clear that we need to be debating watching fornication as sin, because that's the template you've decided to base your judgment on video games off of.

 

[SymphonicaX]

Okay, hold up. You keep bringing up the "it's the same as playing something that encourages fornication" argument yet you're not allowing discussion of whether fornication is sin. Where, exactly, do you expect the discussion to go? It's pretty clear that we need to be debating watching fornication as sin, because that's the template you've decided to base your judgment on video games off of.

well I am debating not about watching the fornication, but engaging in the activities of fornication in a video game as just a simple example of what a game could be.

 

[Digit]

Okay, hold up. You keep bringing up the "it's the same as playing something that encourages fornication" argument yet you're not allowing discussion of whether fornication is sin. Where, exactly, do you expect the discussion to go? It's pretty clear that we need to be debating watching fornication as sin, because that's the template you've decided to base your judgment on video games off of.

Symphonica has accepted that fornication is a sin, and in that light, he wants to know if it's ok to play games that get the player to act out fornication to reach a goal. We don't need to determine whether fornication is a sin or not, in order to proceed.

Just as we do not need to determine if murder is a sin or not in order to proceed or if theft is sinful, or whatever. Lets just accept his presuppositions here, regardless or not if we agree with them as it doesn't change the question one way or another.

Digit

 

[MezzaMorta]

Lol, there is nothing immoral about fictional video games. Just make sure that children understand the difference between video games and the real world.

My little cousin who is staying with me is 11 and loves grand theft auto, he plays it pretty much all day. But he doesn't go out and run over hookers or rob people when i take him to the park.

 

[Digit]

I'm still very confused. I just don't get why we can play something that encourages violence.

Right, that's the key question really. Does it really encourage violence, and does this affect you in a negative way?

Look at God's laws and rules for our lives. They are all created in order to protect us from things. Protect us from the hurt of adultery, having to suffer the loss of someone close through murder, having to go through the anger and hurt of being stolen from. They protect us.

These laws are all based in real life and they cannot cross over successfully into a virtual world. As such I feel that we need to ask ourselves if there is something in this game that is damaging us or those around us. Because remember, we need to watchout for our brothers too. As such I can list numerous positives that I find in a game like BF2, in fact I have done in previous posts. The violence in this game is diminished by all those things. Whereas the violence in a game like Manhunt or God of War 2, is glorified and positively reinforced in a rather disturbing way, the same positives cannot be said for that game, so I won't play it.

Cheers,
Digit

 

[Digit]

Lol, there is nothing immoral about fictional video games. Just make sure that children understand the difference between video games and the real world.

My little cousin who is staying with me is 11 and loves grand theft auto, he plays it pretty much all day. But he doesn't go out and run over hookers or rob people when i take him to the park.

Grand Theft Auto is rated M for Mature, which is no under 17 consumers. Whilst it is not law, to abide by these ratings systems, they were put in place to protect younger consumers from graphic media and messages. Someone who is 11 should not be playing it at all regardless of his interpreted maturity as it contains content which is unwholesome for someone of that age.

Whilst I have tolerance for some things in games, I will not advocate breaking the rating guides, as they were put in place in order to help people and I see parents buying their kids inappropriate games all the time without any thought to the impact they may have.

Digit