Are Catholics Saved?

[MariaRegina]

Baptism is an essential showing of your proffessed belief, but not essential in actual salvation. If that were true the thief on the cross wouldn't have been meeting Christ in paradise.

Baptism is essential because it makes us heirs of heaven, and a member of the mystical Body of Christ.
The Thief on the Cross didn't need Baptism because Christ the Lord is God and God is bigger than the Sacraments. Man was created for the Sacraments. When God gave His Word to the thief that he would be in Paradise with Christ, His Word is active and creative. The Thief was sanctified, illuminated and made worthy to enter Paradise by Christ-God. It was a done deal.

I believe that fasting and the Lords Supper are also important, but not essential to salvation. Where I stand on these things is why wouldn't a Christian do these things as they are things that Christ spoke of and did himself.

Read John 6 which talks about the Eucharist. "Unless you eat of the Son of Man, and drink of His Blood you shall not have eternal life." The Body and Blood of Christ is what we consume in the Holy Eucharist under the appearance of Bread and Wine. It is a mystery that is difficult to receive unless you have the faith. Read John 6:66 (yeh 666) It describes the first anti-christs who refused to walk with Christ because of the difficult teaching on the Holy Eucharist.

But I don't believe that they are neccessary for salvation because anyone that has a true repenting faith in Christ, I believe, wouldn't be barred from heaven on these points......We could get into whether one is saved or not if they don't do these things, but I think that's up to God and isn't productive or healthy to discuss.

The Holy Eucharist is essential for salvation. But God is merciful. If you hear the voice of the Lord, harden not your heart.

Hope this helps.

Elizabeth

 

[Plan 9]

I honestly think it would be better to discuss this in the IDD forum.

 

[MariaRegina]

e.

I believe that fasting and the Lords Supper are also important, but not essential to salvation. Where I stand on these things is why wouldn't a Christian do these things as they are things that Christ spoke of and did himself. ,

Adam

Dear Adam:

Some further comments.

PLease note that I am quoting the scriptures from memory as my eyes are blurred now. It's smoky here in Los Angeles with the fires. So if I made a mistake, be merciful as God is merciful -- correct me and forgive me.

1) Christ said, "When you fast, do not put ashes on your foreheads." He did not say "if you fast" -- therefore He did not make fasting an option. We are to pray and fast.

2) Christ told the apostles that there were certain demons that could only be cast out by prayer and fasting. This shows the necessity of fasting.

3) The Didache tells us that we should pray and fast before a Baptism. The priest and the congregation.

4) Yes, a Christian should receive the Eucharist as Christ commanded us to receive it. And yes, we should pray and fast as Christ commanded.

Hope this helps.
Elizabeth

 

[admtaylor]

I understand what you're saying and agree that they are very important, not ready to say neccessary......but... My view is that if you're wavering on these subjects you need to consider your faith a little harder, my view is also that those that are truly saved prior to death and don't have the opportunity to do these things are still going to heaven. As far as the rest, I'll have to say that I practice these things and therefore find them important, I'm not ready to say that someone who doesn't isn't going to heaven.

Lastly, I believe Plan5 (just a joke plan, I saw that in an earlier post) Plan 9's point about the appropriate forum is well said, I just was really enjoying talking about these things without the normal barrage of inconsiderate remarks.

 

[Plan 9]

Yes, it is enjoyable, isn't it?

 

[admtaylor]

 

[Plan 9]

Chanter is especially good at explaining things, too.

 

[geocajun]

Take it easy buddy, I was giving a "for instance" statement, next time I'll make that alittle clearer.

ahh ok, because when you said "You say you must have works to be saved" that wasn't clear that you were saying "For Instance, if you say..."

I wasn't intending to be doctrinally sounds, becuase my statment was loosly based on just two different views, not necisarrly Catholic/Protestant.

ok, well this confuses me, as OSAS is clearly a protestant only view, and your posting that on a Catholic thread, thus the appearence of Catholic/Protestant points of view...
also, I can understand that you didn't intend to be 100% doctrinally correct when representing Catholic teaching, BUT, instead you were 100% incorrect and I hope my post was able to clarify exactly what the Church teaches regarding salvation.

And I'm telling you anything of the sort about salvation, I was mearly trying to give two examples, why go on the defensive? Sorry but I'm not looking for a fight.

I am not looking for a fight either - and I re-read my post and I do not see how you could think that I am looking for a fight and I am sorry that you did.
What I was doing, was setting the record strait for you after your assersion that Catholics think we are saved by works.
I hope we can continue to discuss matters of doctrine in the future.

 

[Benedicta00]

Oh, I feel sure you're right. That is so weird. He just suddenly skateboards from the usual doctrinal stance into another reality. *insert Twilight Zone music here*

Yet, he doesn't know what schizophrenia is.

He has many more that I could share, not just that one!

 

[Plan 9]

He has many more that I could share, not just that one!

I take it he skateboards a lot? I'd like to see him gleam the doctrinal cube...but from a safe distance.

 

[Benedicta00]

In terms of schooling? Believe it. I'm not going to pay $8,000 a year when I can get just as good education in the public system...

My daughter does well in school, she can demonstrate what's been taught of her, and she can even speak a little in Spanish (they are taught bi-lingual here), so I'd say, for free, I'm getting a pretty good deal...

Why pay the 8K, for what? A little better education? No thanks.

Because you don’t get the secular, liberal spin on everything and you get to pray and go to mass in the Catholic school.

And the education is just a good in public schools!?!

You must not live no where even close to Louisiana do you? Our public schools are a mess. The state is threating to take the New Orleans public school into their own control and in Jefferson parish, which is the neighboring parish to New Orleans, 54% attended private or catholic schools, due to the poor education one receives in the public schools. This is the highest percent of a parish (or county) attending private schools in the nation!

 

[Plan 9]

Shelb, that's terrible! We're having our problems here in Missouri, too, but nothing like that!


This may be a detail, but I can see a real advantage in school uniforms, too.

 

[ps139]

Because you don’t get the secular, liberal spin on everything and you get to pray and go to mass in the Catholic school.

And the education is just a good in public schools!?!

You must not love no where even close to Louisiana do you? Our public schools are a mess. The state is threating to take the New Orleans public school into their own control and in Jefferson parish, which is the neighboring parish to New Orleans, 54% attended private or catholic schools, due to the poor education one receives in the public schools. This is the highest percent of a parish (or county) attending private schools in the nation!

I've attended Catholic school all of my life until I got to college. What I learned in college is that public schools do not teach grammar. This is especially evident, surprisingly, in foreign-language classes. When my Spanish professors would teach about el gerundio, el infinitivo, el imperfecto, blah blah blah, most kids did not know the terms for the English equivalents. Also, the lack of grammar taught in public schools is a major reason why younger college students today can't write.

I also think Catholic schools are in general, better than public schools because the teachers get paid so much less, and there is no teachers union. There are no strikes, and the teachers are there because they love to teach. If they were there for the money they'd be in a public school. Not to say that every public school teacher is in it for the money, I don't mean that at all, I mean that every Catholic school teacher is there because they love to teach in a Catholic Christian environment, and the money is secondary.

Of course there are excellent public schools and horrible Catholic schools. But in my experience thats been the exception rather than the rule.

 

[Swoosh]

If they were there for the money they'd be in a public school.

Many of my public school teachers complain about the pay. It seems to me that teachers at a private school, wheather Catholic or not, would have a higher pay than at a public school. Well, according to my neighbor, who has taught at both.

I would personally rather go to a Catholic school, if not only for the freedom to pray or be led in prayer, which is forbidden in my school. I make up for it by wearing my medallion on the outside of my shirt everyday. "Whoa, theres another Catholic here?" or "Hey, whats the Catholic view of..." its great I tells ya! Now all I need are some Catholic t-shirts and I'd be set!

God bless,
Swoosh

 

[tigersnare]

What I was doing, was setting the record strait for you after your assersion that Catholics think we are saved by works.
I hope we can continue to discuss matters of doctrine in the future.

And what I'm saying is I wasn't making a "assersion" of what Catholics believed.


The point of my post was this (should have taken this route I guess)

You've got two people living for God. One does works because they believe it is part of their salvation process. The other does works because they beleive it is part of the santification process(becoming more like God, i.e. by product of their salvation and or faith). Yet they are both doing works in the name of the Lord. Will one suffer eternal seperation from God because of their slightly different interpretation?

Only God can answer that. But I was just trying to throw that out there.

p.s. These "two people" are not necissarly a protestant and a Catholic so no need to quote doctorine to me, that's besides the point trying to be made.

 

[geocajun]

thanks for clarifying that tigersnare.

 

[tigersnare]

thanks for clarifying that tigersnare.

No problem, and what I mean by "I"m not looking for a fight" is I'm no longer instrested in theological debates with anyone Christian.

Think about it, in the end who wins these debates? My opinion is the enemy wins most of them.

One person probably walks away a little more self righteous, the other probably walks away a little more bitter, than before.

 

[Preachers12]

No problem, and what I mean by "I"m not looking for a fight" is I'm no longer instrested in theological debates with anyone Christian.

Think about it, in the end who wins these debates? My opinion is the enemy wins most of them.

One person probably walks away a little more self righteous, the other probably walks away a little more bitter, than before.

Tigersnare, Peace be with you.

We do see a lot of examples of pride here on the boards, where people get more interested in their "reputation" than in opening their heart and learning something. It is a shame. A weakness of mine is a proclivity towards pride. I pray for help on it all the time.

Personally, I have learned a great deal from boards like this. They cause me to go back and question things. Do some research. Pray more. And, of course, read more Scripture.

In the end, things which I have seen on these boards have led me to grow stronger in my faith because they have caused me to study it, with skepticism, in a much deeper way.

If you think of them as debates, that is what they will become. And the temptation to pride will come with it. After all, we all want to be "right".

If you think of them as opportunities to learn, then they will become that. And you will be loving God with all your mind as you begin to study more an more about Him.

I believe your heart is more open than I thought from the first post I ever read of yours. I apologize for having taken it wrong.

God Bless,
P12

 

[Plan 9]

No problem, and what I mean by "I"m not looking for a fight" is I'm no longer instrested in theological debates with anyone Christian.

Think about it, in the end who wins these debates? My opinion is the enemy wins most of them.

One person probably walks away a little more self righteous, the other probably walks away a little more bitter, than before.

You're right, Tigersnare; none of us "win", I hate the bitterness I feel from participating in them and find I'm likely to fly off the handle and cause harm in some other thread when I had no intention of doing so when I went to it to post.
The desire to be "right" in a debate is one of the worst things that can happen to me.

Friendly disussions are wonderful, though; they help my faith, they promote understanding and empathy, and give me much useful material to consider. I change for the better from being involved in friendly discussions and sometimes my beliefs change, as well.

 

[MariaRegina]

You're right, Tigersnare; none of us "win", I hate the bitterness I feel from participating in them and find I'm likely to fly off the handle and cause harm in some other thread when I had no intention of doing so when I went to it to post.
The desire to be "right" in a debate is one of the worst things that can happen to me.

Friendly disussions are wonderful, though; they help my faith, they promote understanding and empathy, and give me much useful material to consider. I change for the better from being involved in friendly discussions and sometimes my beliefs change, as well.

Dear Plan and Tigersnare:

I agree with you. When we let passions overwhelm us we cannot see clearly anymore. However, if we respond with love and kindness to all, it makes for a more peaceful board here.

Difficulties arise when we perceive that someone has said something wrong. Sometimes our perceptions are flawed or we have a spirit of unforgiveness and deliberately want to see something bad that isn't there. Othertimes, people have dyslexia and just make mistakes. I've made plenty. It's surprises me when I think I've said something nice to find out I'm being accused of saying something else. Then there are those trigger words or words with double meanings. Then a person can become unglued and won't forgive. Why does human communication have to be so complicated? O Lord save us.

Personally, I wish we didn't have those reputation points as it serves as a distraction. I can see a benefit in that it might make us aware of other people's feelings, so hopefully we won't offend again. But on the flip side, some people will abuse it and will give out bad reputations in the heat of anger.

Plan, I hope you had a very happy birthday.

God bless both of you.

Yours truly in Christ,
Elizabeth