Are Calvary Chapel and Vineyard virtually the same?

[ByTheSpirit]

Like you, Pete, I am free to express my opinions. And, sure, that's why I chose the Vineyard over CC even though I know the Vineyard is not perfect. Furthermore, the Vineyard, as far as I know, has no concrete eschatological views and are more interested in the Kingdom as being present tense than future tense. Anyhow, I just fit better in the Vineyard. Unlike this forum, they put up with me.

I put with you Jim! You're my homeboy! Seriously, not everyone here despises you

 

[Simon Peter]

Like you, Pete, I am free to express my opinions. And, sure, that's why I chose the Vineyard over CC even though I know the Vineyard is not perfect. Furthermore, the Vineyard, as far as I know, has no concrete eschatological views and are more interested in the Kingdom as being present tense than future tense. Anyhow, I just fit better in the Vineyard. Unlike this forum, they put up with me.

Jim, You just responded to a post I made over 2 years ago!

I agree, you are, and should be, free to express your opinions, even two years later. And unlike you, I won't call your right to express an opinion "condescending arrogance"

I like both the Vineyard and Calvary Chapel, and have belonged to both in the past for a combined total of over ten years.

My experience with the Vineyard has been that they lean heavily towards post-millennial and latter rain beliefs, which does result in a more 'kingdom now' focus.
In fact this is one of the few areas that I disagreed with the Vineyard, but I put up with it, just like I put up with Jim , and I generally preferred the Vineyard over CC in most ways.

I thought Vineyard pastors mostly lean towards Calvinism, where CC pastors mostly lean towards Arminianism, so I'd think that as you are an Arminian Vineyard pastor you'd be in a minority in that regard at least?


peace,
Simon

 

[Frogster]

Or, maybe, all about his interpretation of the Bible. There is a difference--Jehovah's Witnesses are all about the Bible, too.

Well, Chuck had/has quite a good reputation.

 

[geetrue]

Chuck Smith was an easy to get long with kind of man ... he was all about, "Feed my sheep" "Feed my lambs".

I look forward to meeting him in heaven ...

 

[JimB]

Well, Chuck had/has quite a good reputation.

Of course he did/does. I am not saying he was a bad man or erroneous, nor that John Wimber was right and he wrong. I am simply saying that he approached the Bible in a different way than I do and interpreted some things differently. For that matter, so did Wimber. It is not that he was wrong and I am right—we both may be wrong, and it’s possible that we both may be right. But to like anyone because they agree with you or love what you love is not sufficient reason to venerate them.

 

[geetrue]

Of course he did/does. I am not saying he was a bad man or erroneous, nor that John Wimber was right and he wrong. I am simply saying that he approached the Bible in a different way than I do and interpreted some things differently. For that matter, so did Wimber. It is not that he was wrong and I am right—we both may be wrong, and it’s possible that we both may be right. But to like anyone because they agree with you or love what you love is not sufficient reason to venerate them.

I had to look that one up:

Bing Dictionary
ven·er·ate
[ vénnə ràyt ]


1.respect somebody: to regard somebody with profound respect or reverence
2.honor somebody or something: to honor somebody or something as sacred or special

 

[JimB]

Jim, You just responded to a post I made over 2 years ago!

I agree, you are, and should be, free to express your opinions, even two years later. And unlike you, I won't call your right to express an opinion "condescending arrogance"

I like both the Vineyard and Calvary Chapel, and have belonged to both in the past for a combined total of over ten years.

My experience with the Vineyard has been that they lean heavily towards post-millennial and latter rain beliefs, which does result in a more 'kingdom now' focus.
In fact this is one of the few areas that I disagreed with the Vineyard, but I put up with it, just like I put up with Jim , and I generally preferred the Vineyard over CC in most ways.

I thought Vineyard pastors mostly lean towards Calvinism, where CC pastors mostly lean towards Arminianism, so I'd think that as you are an Arminian Vineyard pastor you'd be in a minority in that regard at least?


peace,
Simon

Most Vineyard pastors, at least here in my neck of the woods, came out of the Assembly of God and are not Calvinist, although I know a few that have Calvinist leanings, even one who was a graduate of Dallas Theological Seminary (Jack Deere’s old alma mater). It is just not a subject that comes up among us.

As far as the “kingdom now” doctrine, I think that is a misunderstanding of what the Vineyard teaches. While the Vineyard believes that we frequently experience the presence of the kingdom (now), it is more of a “now but not yet” view—in other words, we experience ebbs and flows of the kingdom but we are also waiting for the kingdom to come in its fullness. This is core to what the AVC believes. Do not confuse us with those who teach Kingdom Now/Dominion theology.

At least, that has been my experience.

 

[JimB]

I had to look that one up:

VENERATE

transitive verb

1: to regard with reverential respect or with admiring deference

2: to honor (as an icon or a relic) with a ritual act of devotion

Examples of VENERATE
1. a writer venerated by generations of admirers

2. She is venerated as a saint.

Related to VENERATE

Synonyms
ADORE, DEIFY, GLORIFY, REVERE, REVERENCE, WORSHIP

Related Words
ADMIRE, HONOR, LOVE, REGARD, RESPECT; APOTHEOSIZE, CANONIZE, DIGNIFY, EXALT, LIONIZE, MAGNIFY; EXTOL (also EXTOLL), LAUD, PRAISE; DELIGHT, GRATIFY, PLEASE, SATISFY

 

[geetrue]

So tell us JimB who do you venerate?

 

[Simon Peter]

Most Vineyard pastors, at least here in my neck of the woods, came out of the Assembly of God and are not Calvinist, although I know a few that have Calvinist leanings, even one who was a graduate of Dallas Theological Seminary (Jack Deere’s old alma mater). It is just not a subject that comes up among us.

As far as the “kingdom now” doctrine, I think that is a misunderstanding of what the Vineyard teaches. While the Vineyard believes that we frequently experience the presence of the kingdom (now), it is more of a “now but not yet” view—in other words, we experience ebbs and flows of the kingdom but we are also waiting for the kingdom to come in its fullness. This is core to what the AVC believes. Do not confuse us with those who teach Kingdom Now/Dominion theology.

At least, that has been my experience.

I'm not surprised at the mix of Calvinist Arminianist in the Vineyard, that's how it seems to be in most denominations (perhaps the AoG was an exception as they have their own college and quite clear doctrinal expectations) but I once heard that about 70% of vineyard pastors leaned towards Calvinism. IIRC, apparently that was the reason that Randy Clark gave for leaving the Vineyard.

When I typed 'kingdom now' I almost put in: 'not Dominionism', as I thought I may be misunderstood, but I just kept typing I don't recall coming across Dominionism in the Vineyard.
I learned about the 'already but not yet' in college, and it is a pov that I subscribe to. WoF wouldn't like it.

peace,
Simon

 

[NorrinRadd]

...
My experience with the Vineyard has been that they lean heavily towards post-millennial and latter rain beliefs, which does result in a more 'kingdom now' focus.

To be clear, not all "kingdom now" is "Kingdom Now."

I thought Vineyard pastors mostly lean towards Calvinism, where CC pastors mostly lean towards Arminianism, ...

Officially, CC is neither Calvinist nor Arminian. Specifically, they reject the "L" and "I" of the famous TULIP. Of course in the minds of Calvinist purists this makes them default Arminians, since the five petals are tightly interconnected logically, and none can be removed without destroying the whole. I am reasonably sure Lutherans (who reject the L, I, and P) and CC would each say that their view is what is most consistent with the whole of Scripture, regardless of what "logic" dictates.

 

[NorrinRadd]

Well, Chuck had/has quite a good reputation.

Welllll... there was this stuff.

Chuck Smith was an easy to get long with kind of man ... he was all about, "Feed my sheep" "Feed my lambs".

I look forward to meeting him in heaven ...

Inconsistently so, according to this.

 

[NorrinRadd]

...

As far as the “kingdom now” doctrine, I think that is a misunderstanding of what the Vineyard teaches. While the Vineyard believes that we frequently experience the presence of the kingdom (now), it is more of a “now but not yet” view—in other words, we experience ebbs and flows of the kingdom but we are also waiting for the kingdom to come in its fullness. This is core to what the AVC believes. Do not confuse us with those who teach Kingdom Now/Dominion theology.

At least, that has been my experience.

"Now but not yet" or "between 'already' and 'not yet'" was explicitly emphasized in some of the early Vineyard books, including Ken Blue's Authority to Heal.

 

[ToBeBlessed]

Like any church both have good/not so good churches. The one I attended in Whittier and in San Bernardino, Calif were good. One that I attended in central FL was a bit scary.

What was scary about the one in central FL?

 

[AGTG]

The Kingdom of God is here, in mystery, and it's coming, in reality.

 

[Alpine]

Or, maybe, all about his interpretation of the Bible. There is a difference--Jehovah's Witnesses are all about the Bible, too.

Ouch!

 

[Alpine]

But to like anyone because they agree with you or love what you love is not sufficient reason to venerate them.

Oh, does this mean I need to take my paining of you off my wall?? :o

 

[JimB]

The Kingdom of God is here, in mystery, and it's coming, in reality.

That’s one view. Personally, I think the kingdom is here in reality, just not yet in its fullness. When I pray, “Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done,” I am not praying for a mystery, I am praying that God’s kingdom and will be done … literally.

 

[JimB]

I put with you Jim! You're my homeboy! Seriously, not everyone here despises you

Of course not everyone here despises me, just those whose errors are taken to their logical conclusion. It's usually the wounded dog that barks the loudest and the cornered one that growls the meanest. I don't take it personally.

 

[crixus]

I go to a Calvary Chapel myself.

I believe the Vineyard is the result of a split between Chuck Smith and John Wimber in the 70's. I don't know enough what the differences are, but if they were the same, then there would have been no need for a split.

Vineyard is more charismatic. Calvary Chapel restricts speaking in tongues to after the service, while Vineyard doesn't. Vineyard is more like a Pentecostal church. That's basically what the split was about. That and John Wimber was a homosexual, which did not rest well with Calvary Chapel.