Are All the Answers in the Bible? Does Your Pastor Know All the Answers? Here's a Pope Who Doesn't

[Fantine]

-
​

If this Pope or any other Pope believed God and loved their fellow Catholics.

They would stop the political involvement and focus on properly instructing his church on how to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life, by belief in Jesus.

Jesus told his disciples to be servant leaders (foot washing.) He said feed my sheep and lambs. He healed the sick, fed the hungry.
Preaching generosity, compassion, and responsible stewardship is following Jesus.
People who "believe" in Jesus without knowing who he is--or distorting his message--aren't really believers.

 

[RileyG]

-
​

Popes are just another political figurehead in the world of politics

No. They are the successor to St. Peter and a spiritual leader.

 

[RileyG]

-
​

If this Pope or any other Pope believed God and loved their fellow Catholics.

They would stop the political involvement and focus on properly instructing his church on how to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life, by belief in Jesus.

They do. Of course the Pope and the faithful believe in Christ and his message. Many, many of us live it!

 

[RileyG]

Jesus told his disciples to be servant leaders (foot washing.) He said feed my sheep and lambs. He healed the sick, fed the hungry.
Preaching generosity, compassion, and responsible stewardship is following Jesus.
People who "believe" in Jesus without knowing who he is--or distorting his message--aren't really believers.

Well said. A good example is the little sisters of the poor who devote their life to caring for the elderly.

 

[RileyG]

Looking for inspiration before evening prayer?
I am. I called my friend in California whose daughter had a dissected aorta last Mother's Day and only survived three days after surgery. She didn't answer the phone, and I left a message: "I'm thinking of you. I love you. I loved _________. I'm here for you if you need me." So inadequate....

But that's faith. Reaching out to comfort someone when only God can give her the peace she needs--and it might not come in this lifetime.

And then I read this quote from Pope Leo. While he admits he doesn't have the answers, he certainly is a shepherd worth following.
*Quote from Pope Leo X1V.*
" Brothers, sisters…
I speak to you, especially to those who no longer believe, no longer hope, no longer pray, because they think God has left.
To those who are fed up with scandals, with misused power, with the silence of a Church that sometimes seems more like a palace than a home.
I, too, was angry with God.
I, too, saw good people die, children suffer, grandparents cry without medicine.
And yes… there were days when I prayed and only felt an echo.
But then I discovered something:
God doesn't shout. God whispers.
And sometimes He whispers from the mud, from pain, from a grandmother who feeds you without having anything.
I don't come to offer you perfect faith.
I come to tell you that faith is a walk with stones, puddles, and unexpected hugs.
I'm not asking you to believe in everything.
I'm asking you not to close the door. Give a chance to the God who waits for you without judgment.
I'm just a priest who saw God in the smile of a woman who lost her son... and yet she cooked for others.
That changed me.
So if you're broken, if you don't believe, if you're tired of the lies...
come anyway. With your anger, your doubt, your dirty backpack.
No one here will ask you for a VIP card.
Because this Church, as long as I breathe, will be a home for the homeless, and a rest for the weary.
God doesn't need soldiers.
He needs brothers.
And you, yes, you...
are one of them."
Robert Prevost (Leo XIV)

Read a book once called "Messy Spirituality," and this is a prime example. Looking for your feedback.

Thank you for sharing. Keeping the new Holy Father in my daily prayers.

God bless you

 

[Meowzltov]

-
​

To be followed and listen to by everyone is not a requirement to be a political leader.

Political leaders don't need everyone to be followers. Once in office, they simply use force to make others comply.

My point was that the Pope is NOT a political leader because he does NOT force compliance with an army or police force. People freely choose to listen to him (or not) based on his moral character.

 

[d taylor]

Political leaders don't need everyone to be followers. Once in office, they simply use force to make others comply.

My point was that the Pope is NOT a political leader because he does NOT force compliance with an army or police force. People freely choose to listen to him (or not) based on his moral character.

-
​

Vatican City is its own country, officially known as the Vatican City State, and it is the smallest independent nation in the world. It became an independent state in 1929 through the Lateran Treaty with Italy.

Lead by the Pope.

Is the Vatican its own country? What to know about the world's smallest sovereign nation

No other denomination has their own country with an elected leader.

 

[BCP1928]

Political leaders don't need everyone to be followers. Once in office, they simply use force to make others comply.

My point was that the Pope is NOT a political leader because he does NOT force compliance with an army or police force. People freely choose to listen to him (or not) based on his moral character.

Yes he does too! Let them poke you with some of those pointy things, you'll comply. (Actually, when they're not dressed like that they are a modern highly trained elite military unit)

 

[d taylor]

-
​

I am not on any of the sites like facebook, etc... so normally i would not see a post like this one by the pope. But it is a thread started today (If I Squint, I Can See Francis in This) just another example of his political involvement.

 

[stevevw]

I think there was a precedent set down by the early church for some sort of hierarchy to minister to the church. Initially Jesus chose the 12. But we see the disciples go on to elect a replacement for Judas by drawing lots.

Then we see others being selected as bishops who became the heads of the first churches. Peter and Paul were ministering from Rome, Timothy and Titus and others throughout the empire. Clement and others being disciples of the disciples also being elected to overseer the church.

Then we see in the later 1st and early 2nd century the development of the hierarchy of bishop, Presbyter and Deacon. The bishop having the highest status and represented as in a position like Christ is to God. The Presbyters represented the apostles.

So this hierarchy was present from an early stage and in some ways paralelled the old testamnet priesthood of High priest and priest and the lesser administers. Except the early Jewish Christians like other sects evolved the roless to apply to the present time.

The point is they had a clear hierarchy of ministry where priests were selected/elected and specially annointed. The bishop was head and the emphasis was on obeying the bishop as head of the church. As representing God in His church on earth.

Its just that this got politicised during the mid to later 3rd century.

Also I don't think the church was lost right away or has ever been lost. At its core the Catholic church is still in some ways the same church as in the 1st and 2nd centuries. It wasn't an instant and complete corruption. Christ said that His bhurch he established would not be completely taken by the wolves or Hades.

We just need some great men to stand up and take us back to how Christ was central that leaders were martytrd in His name. Thats one thing you hear a lot in the early church was how the bishops were meek, quiet and Christlike. They were not buying into political fights and controversies.

THe church fathers often praised the submission and respect towards the bishop and emphasised doing nothing without him. While at the same time the bishops being less like leaders we think today and more like servants exampling Christ. Yet having such authority shephard the church.

 

[David Lamb]

I think there was a precedent set down by the early church for some sort of hierarchy to minister to the church. Initially Jesus chose the 12. But we see the disciples go on to elect a replacement for Judas by drawing lots.

And by praying to God.

Then we see others being selected as bishops who became the heads of the first churches. Peter and Paul were ministering from Rome, Timothy and Titus and others throughout the empire.

Paul went to Rome as a prisoner (because, as a Roman citizen, he had "appealed to Caesar".) But he, like Timothy, Titus, and others, preached the Gospel in many places (Ephesus, Corinth, Thessalonica and many other places.) The bible makes no mention of Peter ever being in Rome.

Clement and others being disciples of the disciples also being elected to overseer the church.

Then we see in the later 1st and early 2nd century the development of the hierarchy of bishop, Presbyter and Deacon.

The first deacons were chosen in Acts 6. No idea of hierarchy, just different tasks. As for Presbyters, biblically, the Greek word presbuteros is translated "elder(s)".

The bishop having the highest status and represented as in a position like Christ is to God. The Presbyters represented the apostles.

Not what we read in the bible.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

You forgot about the Anglicans--the head of the church is is the English monarch. I don't know if that helps whatever point you are trying to make or not.

The Pope is both King of the Vatican and head of the Catholic Church.

 

[Fantine]

The Pope is both King of the Vatican and head of the Catholic Church.

Christ is the only "king" of the Church. I am sure the government is administered by dedicated staff more competent than the 30 Fox News hosts who run ours.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

Christ is the only "king" of the Church. I am sure the government is administered by dedicated staff more competent than the 30 Fox News hosts who run ours.

I didn't say the Pope was "King of the Church." I said he was the "King of the Vatican," as in the sovereign nation called "The Vatican." I'd figured that you would have known that since you are Catholic.

 

[stevevw]

And by praying to God.

Yes I wouldimagine a lot of praying and contemplating. Paul says to Timothy I think not to be so rash in annointing bishops. They had to be above reproach and of good reputation and Christlike. Clement mentions how the disiciples being full of the holy spirit chose other men to be disciples of the church. So they would have been praying for the holy spirit to guide them'

Chapter 42. The Order of Ministers in the Church.
The apostles have preached the gospel to us from the Lord Jesus Christ; Jesus Christ [has done so] from God. Christ therefore was sent forth by God, and the apostles by Christ. Both these appointments, then, were made in an orderly way, according to the will of God. Having therefore received their orders, and being fully assured by the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, and established in the word of God, with full assurance of the Holy Ghost, they went forth proclaiming that the kingdom of God was at hand.

And thus preaching through countries and cities, they appointed the first fruits [of their labours], having first proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons of those who should afterwards believe. Nor was this any new thing, since indeed many ages before it was written concerning bishops and deacons. For thus says the Scripture in a certain place, I will appoint their bishops in righteousness, and their deacons in faith.

Paul went to Rome as a prisoner (because, as a Roman citizen, he had "appealed to Caesar".) But he, like Timothy, Titus, and others, preached the Gospel in many places (Ephesus, Corinth, Thessalonica and many other places.) The bible makes no mention of Peter ever being in Rome.

Actually in 1 Peter 5:13 Peter mentions that he sends his regards from the church here in Babylon. Babylon was said to be code for Rome by many scholars.

It is used that way multiple times in works like the Sibylline Oracles (5:159f), the Apocalypse of Baruch (2:1), and 4 Esdras (3:1). Eusebius Pamphilius, in The Chronicle, composed about A.D. 303, noted that “It is said that Peter’s first epistle, in which he makes mention of Mark, was composed at Rome itself; and that he himself indicates this, referring to the city figuratively as Babylon.”

Tertullian, in The Demurrer Against the Heretics (A.D. 200), noted of Rome, “How happy is that church . . . where Peter endured a passion like that of the Lord, where Paul was crowned in a death like John’s [referring to John the Baptist, both he and Paul being beheaded].”

In the same book, Tertullian wrote that “this is the way in which the apostolic churches transmit their lists: like the church of the Smyrnaeans, which records that Polycarp was placed there by John; like the church of the Romans, where Clement was ordained by Peter.” This Clement, known as Clement of Rome, later would be the fourth pope. Clement wrote his Letter to the Corinthians perhaps before the year 70, just a few years after Peter and Paul were killed; in it he made reference to Peter ending his life where Paul ended his.

In his Letter to the Romans (A.D. 110), Ignatius of Antioch remarked 'that he could not command the Roman Christians the way Peter and Paul once did', such a comment making sense only if Peter had been a leader, if not the leader, of the church in Rome.

Irenaeus, in Against Heresies (A.D. 190), said that Matthew wrote his Gospel “while Peter and Paul were evangelizing in Rome and laying the foundation of the Church.” A few lines later he notes that 'Linus was named as Peter’s successor, that is, the second pope, and that next in line were Anacletus (also known as Cletus), and then Clement of Rome'

Clement of Alexandria wrote at the turn of the third century. A fragment of his work Sketches is preserved in Eusebius of Caesarea’s Ecclesiastical History, the first history of the Church. Clement wrote, “When Peter preached the word publicly at Rome, and declared the gospel by the Spirit, many who were present requested that Mark, who had been for a long time his follower and who remembered his sayings, should write down what had been proclaimed.”

Lactantius, in a treatise called The Death of the Persecutors, written around 318, noted that “When Nero was already reigning [Nero reigned from 54–68], Peter came to Rome, where, in virtue of the performance of certain miracles which he worked by that power of God which had been given to him, he converted many to righteousness and established a firm and steadfast temple to God.”

What Boettner casually dismissed as “some bones of uncertain origin” were the contents of a tomb on Vatican Hill that was covered with early inscriptions attesting to the fact that Peter’s remains were inside. John Evangelist Walsh’s book, The Bones of St. Peter. It is enough to say here that the historical and scientific evidence is such that no one willing to look at the facts objectively can doubt that Peter was in Rome.

Was Peter in Rome?

Fundametalist Christians claim Peter was never in Rome. To deny that he was is to let prejudice override reason. The historical record says it all.

www.catholic.com

AI Overview
In 1968, after a long search, bones believed to be those of Saint Peter were discovered under the Vatican's St. Peter's Basilica. Pope Paul VI announced their discovery, saying they were identified in a "convincing manner". The bones were initially found in the 1940s in a small niche within an underground monument and were later re-announced by Pope Paul VI.

St. Peter’s tomb: When science confirms Tradition

St. Peter’s tomb: When science confirms Tradition

19th-century excavations and studies confirmed the long-standing tradition that St. Peter's Basilica was built over the tomb of St. Peter the Apostle.

aleteia.org

The first deacons were chosen in Acts 6. No idea of hierarchy, just different tasks. As for Presbyters, biblically, the Greek word presbuteros is translated "elder(s)".

Yeah I find this confusing but it seems that elder represented a few different meanings. John refers to himself as an elder but also as a apostle and then as 'the elder' like it was a well known status he had being head elder. Timothy is an elder yet he is young so it took on more meaning. Yet elder was still being used for older people who were not overseers.

So it seems under the Jewish tradition and culture elder was evolved into an overseer and bishop. At first there were the disciples and bishops. Then after the disciples and as the church grew bishops were assisted by Presbyters and the bishops were like the disciples who overseen the church overall.

Deacons seems to have evolved where women could assist in the ministry. But for a time maybe towards the end of the 2nd century deacons were also male. The church clarified this in the

Council of Nicaea I
“Similarly, in regard to the deaconesses, as with all who are enrolled in the register, the same procedure is to be observed. We have made mention of the deaconesses, who have been enrolled in this position, although, not having been in any way ordained, they are certainly to be numbered among the laity” (Canon 19 [A.D. 325]).

What the Early Church Believed: Women and the Priesthood

Jesus instituted an all-male priesthood. These quotations from the Fathers constitute a part of the tradition on which this infallible teaching rests.

www.catholic.com

Not what we read in the bible.

Thats because at the time of the bible we still had the disciples. They were annointed by Christ Himself. So then others annointed by the disciples including Paul were appointed as elders/bishops/priests. We see this when the church heads are gathered with the High priests, elders as well as disciples. With the disciples were the ultimate heads.

Although the terms “bishop,” “priest,” and “deacon” were somewhat fluid in the apostolic age, by the beginning of the second century they had achieved the fixed form in which they are used today to designate the three offices whose functions are clearly distinct in the New Testament.

Clement of Rome
Chapter 40. Let Us Preserve in the Church the Order Appointed by God.
Where and by whom He desires these things to be done, He Himself has fixed by His own supreme will, in order that all things, being piously done according to His good pleasure, may be acceptable unto Him.

Those, therefore, who present their offerings at the appointed times, are accepted and blessed; for inasmuch as they follow the laws of the Lord, they sin not. For his own peculiar services are assigned to the high priest, and their own proper place is prescribed to the priests, and their own special ministrations devolve on the Levites. The layman is bound by the laws that pertain to laymen.

Chapter 42. The Order of Ministers in the Church.
And thus preaching through countries and cities, they appointed the first fruits [of their labours], having first proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons of those who should afterwards believe. Nor was this any new thing, since indeed many ages before it was written concerning bishops and deacons. For thus says the Scripture in a certain place, I will appoint their bishops in righteousness, and their deacons in faith.

Ignatius of Antioch
“Take care to do all things in harmony with God, with the bishop presiding in the place of God, and with the presbyters in the place of the council of the apostles, and with the deacons, who are most dear to me, entrusted with the business of Jesus Christ, who was with the Father from the beginning and is at last made manifest” (ibid., 6:1).

“In like manner let everyone respect the deacons as they would respect Jesus Christ, and just as they respect the bishop as a type of the Father, and the presbyters as the council of God and college of the apostles. Without these, it cannot be called a church” (ibid., 3:1–2).

 

[BCP1928]

-
​

If this Pope or any other Pope believed God and loved their fellow Catholics.

They would stop the political involvement and focus on properly instructing his church on how to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life, by belief in Jesus.

It's called Christian witness. Or, as St. Francis said, "Preach the Gospel. If necessary, use words."

 

[Fantine]

It's called Christian witness. Or, as St. Francis said, "Preach the Gospel. If necessary, use words."

They are Shepherds first of all. Catholics are the Sheep. As Shepherds, if they see their sheep in the third world starving, being victimized by genocide, experiencing famines and tsunamis due to the greed and overuse of energy by the first world they are required, by morality by faith, and by honor, to act.

 

[Meowzltov]

-
​

Vatican City is its own country, officially known as the Vatican City State, and it is the smallest independent nation in the world. It became an independent state in 1929 through the Lateran Treaty with Italy.

Lead by the Pope.

Is the Vatican its own country? What to know about the world's smallest sovereign nation

No other denomination has their own country with an elected leader.

Yes, a remnant of a much older time when things were quite different.

I'm sure the Swiss Guard strikes fear into the hearts of men.

 

[Fantine]

-
​

If this Pope or any other Pope believed God and loved their fellow Catholics.

They would stop the political involvement and focus on properly instructing his church on how to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life, by belief in Jesus.

Loaves and fishes. Even Jesus couldn't command the attention of starving people.
And in Acts people converted because they saw how Christians loved one another.
Pious lectures are cheap but ineffective.

 

[David Lamb]

Loaves and fishes. Even Jesus couldn't command the attention of starving people.
And in Acts people converted because they saw how Christians loved one another.
Pious lectures are cheap but ineffective.

I am sure He did command the attention of starving people when He fed 5000 men, plus women and children on 5 loaves and two fish!