Are all sins equally bad in the eyes of God?

[ArmenianJohn]

Thank you my friend. It means a lot to me. With your permission, I would like to send you a PM about my positive experiences with Armenians specifically.

Of course, your PM's are always welcome by me

 

[Reluctant Theologian]

Paul wrote about a horrible sin that should have required the excommunication of the sinner from the Corinthians’ fellowship.

Dealing With a Case of Incest (NIV)

1 Corinthians 5:1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife. 2And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have gone into mourning and have put out of your fellowship the man who has been doing this?

Maybe a side-note to your posting; but Paul's comment does not relate to Incest (sex between closely blood-related people); Paul is referring quite precisely to someone who is sleeping with his father's wife (not his mother!). So this could relate to another wife his father had (polygamy), or a woman his father married after his 1st wife died.

Having sex with your father's wife (as distinct from your own mother) was specifically prohibited in:

Leviticus 18:8 (ESV)

You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father's wife; it is your father's nakedness.​

This offense carried the death penalty according to the Thora.

The incest prohibition (mother-son) is a different one found in Leviticus 18:7.

 

[The Liturgist]

Bottom line is - we see these teachers of error - inside the church -- all over the place in the first century church

Respectfully, we don’t. You can’t name one, because they were all anathematized. Simon Magus, Nicolas the Deacon, Cerinthus, Basilides and Marcion, and like, are not a part of the Church - they are apostate heretics who were declared anathema under Galatians 1:8-9 and cut off.

Anyone not anathematized under Galatians 1:8-9 can be presumed doctrinally orthodox.

. Paul's statement in Acts 20 does not place any limit on what sorts of error would come in - as we see in the text.

That is totally irrelevant and I fear I may have miscommunicated something catastrophically if you or anyone else thinks it is, because I thought I was fairly clear in my post that the doctrines of the early church are scriptural doctrines, and scriptural doctrines are the doctrines of the early church. Or to revert to my Calvinist UCC period and invoke Reformed terminology, we can say that while individual Church Fathers are fallible and some of them did occasionally err, and some were more fallible than others (for example, St. Augustine or Pope Leo X) and some are so fallible as to have cut themselves off and been anathematized (Tertullian and Tatian come to mind), where there exists consensus between the Fathers, this is our Lord and God the Holy Spirit, our Comforter and Paraclete working in the Church, as He has done from Whitsunday (Pentecost) in 33 AD, as Christ our Lord, God and Savior promised He would send the Paraclete.

And the Paraclete indwells those who have been baptized in Christ, and as the Festal Hymn for Epiphany says, “Those who have been baptized in Christ have put on Christ, alleluia”, and as our Lord promises that when two or more are gathered in His name, He is in the midst of them, we can be assured that the actions of the First Century Church are correct, as are those of the Early Church in general.*

And we can be further assured of their accuracy because SDA doctrine, as I have explained, is dependent on Patristic doctrines and Patristic actions, most especially the Nicene Creed and the Athanasian Canon. Indeed, as I am a fan of venerating people, and since the SDA venerates Ellen White as “The Spirit of Prophecy,” I propose that it should join with myself and a great many Christians around the world who venerate St. Athanasius as “The Pillar of Orthodoxy,” since he is, together with EGW, if we look at SDA doctrine, more important in the formation of those doctrines than any other extra-Biblical person, assuming we can even call him extra-Biblical; it would not be unfair nor contrary to Scripture, to consider him the Divinely Inspired Compiler of the New Testament.

And speaking of other things not contrary to Scripture, the Harrowing of Hell comes to mind.

*and I would argue, the trio of Eastern communions (EO, OO, Assyrian) and the liturgical Protestants (Anglican, Lutheran, Methodist, Moravian, Congregationalist), some of the Old Catholics, like the Polish National Catholic Church, and, for most of its recent history, the Roman Catholic Church, whose problems were resolved between the reign of Pope Pius V and Pope Pius X, before Popes Pius XII and Paul VI made poor decisions regarding the Western and Maronite liturgy (although the Byzantine Rite Churches and some of the other Sui Juris Eastern Catholic Churches saw liturgical improvements), and to the extent Pope St. John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI had made things better, Pope Francis has made things much worse.

 

[The Liturgist]

There is a joke: A man asks a woman if she would sleep with him for a million dollars. She agrees. Then he asks her if she would sleep with him for twenty dollars. She exclaims angrily, "Do you think I'm a prostitute?" He replies, "We have already determined that. Now we're just haggling over the price."

The man in that story is traditionally held to be Winston Churchill, and the woman, Lady Astor. Is it apocryphal? Probably, as are many of the Churchill anecdotes, especially those involving Lady Astor, for instance, where she says “You’re drunk” to which Sir Winston replies “And you Madame are ugly, but I shall wake up sober in the morning.” Which is rather mean to Lady Astor, but that’s the style of these anecdotes. It is difficult at times to differentiate between the real Churchill and the fictional Churchill, almost as hard as telling the real Socrates from the man depicted by Plato.

 

[BobRyan]

1. Paul's statement in Acts 20 does not place any limit on what sorts of error would come in - as we see in the text.

2. In 3 John 1 we get a good look at how this was happening in the first century.
3 John 1: 9 I wrote something to the church; but Diotrephes, who loves to be first among them, does not accept what we say. 10 For this reason, if I come, I will call attention to his deeds which he does, unjustly accusing us with wicked words; and not satisfied with this, he himself does not receive the brethren, either, and he forbids those who desire to do so and puts them out of the church

3. In 2 John 1
9 Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting; 11 for the one who gives him a greeting participates in his evil deeds.

4. In 1 Tim 1:
3 As I urged you upon my departure for Macedonia, remain on at Ephesus so that you may instruct certain men not to teach strange doctrines, 4 nor to pay attention to myths and endless genealogies, which give rise to mere speculation rather than furthering the administration of God which is by faith. 5 But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6 For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion, 7 wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions.

4. Titus 1
7 For the overseer must be above reproach as God’s steward, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not addicted to wine, not pugnacious, not fond of sordid gain, 8 but hospitable, loving what is good, sensible, just, devout, self-controlled, 9 holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict.
10 For there are many rebellious men, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, 11 who must be silenced because they are upsetting whole families, teaching things they should not teach for the sake of sordid gain. 12 One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” 13 This testimony is true. For this reason reprove them severely so that they may be sound in the faith, 14 not paying attention to Jewish myths and commandments of men who turn away from the truth. 15 To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled. 16 They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed.

5. Jude 1
3 Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints. 4 For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

8 Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile angelic majesties. ...10 But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed. 11 Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam, and perished in the rebellion of Korah. 12 These are the men who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; 13 wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever.

==================

Bottom line is - we see these teachers of error - inside the church -- all over the place in the first century church - no need to wait till the 2nd or 3rd century to find the problem.

Respectfully, we don’t.

Ok then I see that in those texts.. Paul did, Timothy did, Titus did, Jude did... etc.

So we look "again" at those texts

4. In 1 Tim 1:
3 As I urged you upon my departure for Macedonia, remain on at Ephesus so that you may instruct certain men not to teach strange doctrines, 4 nor to pay attention to myths and endless genealogies, which give rise to mere speculation rather than furthering the administration of God which is by faith. 5 But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6 For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion, 7 wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions.

Paul does NOT say "no need to remain at Ephesus to instruct certain men not to teach strange doctrines ... all of that has been done".

There is no "hmm we have no issues with error creeping in ... finally at last!" texts.

===

We have the "more errors coming" statement in Acts 20... but no "no more errors ... at last!" texts.

-
Acts 20:28 Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. 29 I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 30 and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them. 31 Therefore be on the alert, NASB 1955

28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. 29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. 31 So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears. NIV

====================

We have the "appoint elders who can deal with these issues when they come up as they already have sprouted up" texts

Titus
10 For there are many rebellious men, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, 11 who must be silenced because they are upsetting whole families, teaching things they should not teach for the sake of sordid gain. 12 One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” 13 This testimony is true. For this reason reprove them severely so that they may be sound in the faith, 14 not paying attention to Jewish myths and commandments of men who turn away from the truth.

But we have no "all problems solved... nothing more to do" texts.

================

We have the "I wanted to write a nice happy letter but instead I have to urge you to fight...to contend earnestly for sound doctrine" texts. Warnings about "hidden reefs" already in the church...

Jude 1
3 Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints. 4 For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

8 Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile angelic majesties. ...10 But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed. 11 Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam, and perished in the rebellion of Korah. 12 These are the men who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; 13 wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever.

But we have no "all those problems solved... nothing more to do" texts.

 

[BobRyan]

That is totally irrelevant and I fear I may have miscommunicated something catastrophically if you or anyone else thinks it is, because I thought I was fairly clear in my post that the doctrines of the early church are scriptural doctrines, and scriptural doctrines are the doctrines of the early church.

If you are calling the first century Apostles "the early church" -- fine ... we agree.

But if you are going "beyond Paul's departure" as Acts 20 informs us... then the NT texts demonstrate error was already sprouting up in the first century (though the NT text is unstained by error) and we could not expect anything other than a continuation of that problem "only more so" as the centuries rolled on.

 

[BobRyan]

And we can be further assured of their accuracy because SDA doctrine, as I have explained, is dependent on Patristic doctrines and Patristic actions, most especially the Nicene Creed and the Athanasian Canon.

1. I don't know of any SDA doctrinal statement that no error was possible from 100 to 500 A.D.
2. I don't know of any objections in major Christian denominations to the NT text -- and that includes objections from Baptists, Methodists, Adventists etc.
3. I don't know of any historic document written after 100 A.D. saying that they wrote/invented/created scripture not already present and read by first century Christians.

 

[The Liturgist]

Ok then I see that in those texts.. Paul did, Timothy did, Titus did, Jude did... etc.

So we look "again" at those texts

4. In 1 Tim 1:
3 As I urged you upon my departure for Macedonia, remain on at Ephesus so that you may instruct certain men not to teach strange doctrines, 4 nor to pay attention to myths and endless genealogies, which give rise to mere speculation rather than furthering the administration of God which is by faith. 5 But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6 For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion, 7 wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions.

Paul does NOT say "no need to remain at Ephesus to instruct certain men not to teach strange doctrines ... all of that has been done".

There is no "hmm we have no issues with error creeping in ... finally at last!" texts.

===

We have the "more errors coming" statement in Acts 20... but no "no more errors ... at last!" texts.

-
Acts 20:28 Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. 29 I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 30 and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them. 31 Therefore be on the alert, NASB 1955

28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. 29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. 31 So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears. NIV

====================

We have the "appoint elders who can deal with these issues when they come up as they already have sprouted up" texts

Titus
10 For there are many rebellious men, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, 11 who must be silenced because they are upsetting whole families, teaching things they should not teach for the sake of sordid gain. 12 One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” 13 This testimony is true. For this reason reprove them severely so that they may be sound in the faith, 14 not paying attention to Jewish myths and commandments of men who turn away from the truth.

But we have no "all problems solved... nothing more to do" texts.

================

We have the "I wanted to write a nice happy letter but instead I have to urge you to fight...to contend earnestly for sound doctrine" texts. Warnings about "hidden reefs" already in the church...

Jude 1
3 Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints. 4 For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

8 Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile angelic majesties. ...10 But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed. 11 Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam, and perished in the rebellion of Korah. 12 These are the men who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; 13 wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever.

But we have no "all those problems solved... nothing more to do" texts.

As I think neutral observers would agree, I have addressed these points. The Epistle of Jude, by the way, postdates the Pauline epistles, and we see the trickle of heretics like Nicolas the Deacon and Simon Magus begin to turn into a flood. The Epistle of Titus is also not reckoned with the primary Pauline epistles; it is a Pastoral Epistle, sent near the end of his life, by which time heresies in the church were snowballing.

And once again, the reason why Titus and Jude are counted as Scripture and not Apocrypha is St. Athanasius.

If you are calling the first century Apostles "the early church" -- fine ... we agree.

But if you are going "beyond Paul's departure" as Acts 20 informs us... then the NT texts demonstrate error was already sprouting up in the first century (though the NT text is unstained by error) and we could not expect anything other than a continuation of that problem "only more so" as the centuries rolled on.

What you don’t seem to understand is that the heresies and heterodoxies that became an increasing problem over the following two millennia by their very nature, according to Galatians 1:8-9, put someone outside the church. Only a minor error which does not amount to preaching another Gospel and is not made with malicious intent can be said to happen without anathema.

 

[The Liturgist]

1. I don't know of any SDA doctrinal statement that no error was possible from 100 to 500 A.D.
2. I don't know of any objections in major Christian denominations to the NT text -- and that includes objections from Baptists, Methodists, Adventists etc.
3. I don't know of any historic document written after 100 A.D. saying that they wrote/invented/created scripture not already present and read by first century Christians.

1. I never claimed such a document existed.
2. Indeed, my whole point is such objections do not exist, because the major denominations received as a patrimony from the fourth and fifth century church the Athanasian canon.
3. There actually were books which St. Athanasius excluded from the canon, but others wanted to include, like 1 Barnabas, which is thought to have been written in the second century, but its also clear from this question that you are missing my point.

The first century church had Apostles and Evangelists, who recorded and interpreted the Gospel, the Acts of the Apostles and certain revelations, such as the Apocalypse of St. John on Patmos. There were also spurious documents. These became to a large extent mixed in with genuine documents, and so starting in the late second century, the Church began to focus on compiling an authoritative canon of New Testament texts, and the canon which ultimately succeeded in this respect, and which we still use today, is the Athanasian Canon of 367.

 

[BobRyan]

The first century church had Apostles and Evangelists, who recorded and interpreted the Gospel, the Acts of the Apostles and certain revelations, such as the Apocalypse of St. John on Patmos. There were also spurious documents. These became to a large extent mixed in with genuine documents, and so starting in the late second century, the Church began to focus on compiling an authoritative canon

You are making the case that in the first century the apostles knew what the legit sources were but error started coming in once they left and a "fix" was needed in the late second century to get it back to what the Apostles had in the first century.

I don't see how that "going off the rails after the apostles passed and needed to be fixed" idea is all that different from my position so far.

The "fix" was not to create those first century legit sources - it was to remind everyone what they already had and to ignore the added baggage that was being inserted as time went on. And this fix was needed near the end of the 2nd century - thus confirming the going-off-the-rails work started in the first century that had continued all through the second. And to this very day.

 

[The Liturgist]

You are making the case that in the first century the apostles knew what the legit sources were but error started coming in once they left and a "fix" was needed in the late second century to get it back to what the Apostles had in the first century.

I don't see how that "going off the rails after the apostles passed and needed to be fixed" idea is all that different from my position so far.

Ah, no I’m not. Actually, considering that different Apostles were martyred at different timed and preached in different areas, well, we know St. Paul was martyred before the Apocalypse was written on Patmos, and probably before all of the canonical Gospels were complete, and St. Thomas was martyred in 53 AD, when at most one Gospel and a few Pauline epistles existed, of those that are in the canon, and St. James the Great was martyred well before that.

So, I personally doubt any of the apostles had complete knowledge of what every other apostle had written. What mattered to the Apostles, given the relative lack of literacy among the early congregations, was not the documents which would later be discerned as inspired Scripture, but the preaching of the Gospel, which all of the Apostles knew and trusted each other to preach (and when any disputed arose, as we see between St. Peter and St. Paul, they worked them out).

Actually, logically speaking, only one Apostle could know the NT canon, and that was St. John the Beloved Disciple, for he was the last to die and the only apostle not martyred. However, I doubt he was aware of everything, for example, I can’t think of a reason why he would know about the Pastoral Epistles of St. Paul.

It is also almost a certainty that there are many apostolic writings that are either lost to us or unverifiable. The Athanasian canon was composed by St. Athanasius to include as much as could be reasonably verified, balancing the hyper-inclusive approach we see in some protocanons, usually those associated with the Catechtical School of Alexandria (1 Barnabas, which St. Athanasius rejected, was virtually an affirmation of Alexandrian exegetical techniques), and the hyper-exclusive approach we see associated with the Catechtical School of Antioch, which would have us reject Apocalypse, Jude, Titus, 2 Peter, 2 John, 3 John and so on.

Insofar as the whole church adopted this canon, and there is no record of this canon existing before 367 AD, I propose that it be regarded as inspired, and I think most Christians from most denominations would agree with me.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Is one like Hitler who orchestrates a massacre as equally bad, as one who made a white lie?

I remember being in school and a teacher saying all sins are equally bad.

Well, we do know that no matter how small the sin may seem to anybody, that just one transgression is deserving of hell. I have heard some pastors claim that hell isn't going to be experienced the same compared to one of another. That there are "lesser hells" So someone's torment may be more severe than the other in other words hell won't be the same for everybody in it.

I am not always right about things, my natural response is that doesn't seem right, of course some sins are worse than others. For example, in society each crime is seen with different severity and different lengths of punishment depending on what the crime is, with some crimes so heinous that they either get life or death penalty.

My natural inclinations are not as sound as the word of God. So, what does the Bible seem to suggest for this matter?

As I have learned, what we may naturally think "ought to be the way or right" is not always what God thinks, for God's ways are not our ways.

No one want to travel back in time to kill someone who told a white lie.

 

[honestal]

Is there a paper-clip thief in heaven?

NO! 1 Cor 6:9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who submit to or perform homosexual acts, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

So his thievery is either forgiven in Christ or he is damned...just like every other sin of any proportion...no matter how you feel about it!

I agree.