• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
  • We hope the site problems here are now solved, however, if you still have any issues, please start a ticket in Contact Us

Are all sins equally bad in the eyes of God?

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
16,620
8,845
51
The Wild West
✟861,304.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
I read through kind of quickly so if I missed what you (@The Liturgist ) asked me to confirm just let me know. You are correct that during Lent our altar is concealed behind a curtain until Easter.

I thought it was unveiled on Palm Sunday, based on videos I have seen of Palm Sunday liturgies.

As for confession, we have general confession. If "auricular" confession means confessing directly to a priest, people in our Church can do that if they want but it is not required or expected. If I told my priest I wanted to do that he would probably be surprised but would not act surprised and would accommodate it.

Ok, so thats similar to Syriac Orthodoxy or some Lutheran and Anglican churches where auricular confession is less commonly practiced (but Martin Luther and the Anglicans in general do practice auricular confession, and some do it quite a bit). In the Coptic church it is more routine.
 
Upvote 0

Aldebaran

NCC-1701-A
Christian Forums Staff
Purple Team - Moderator
Site Supporter
Oct 17, 2009
43,735
13,832
Wisconsin, United States of America
✟924,051.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Well, we do know that no matter how small the sin may seem to anybody, that just one transgression is deserving of hell. I have heard some pastors claim that hell isn't going to be experienced the same compared to one of another.

It's not Hell that we should be concerned about having different levels of experience, but rather the lake of fire, which Hell is thrown into at the end. Rev 20:14: "14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death."
 
  • Like
Reactions: Justin BT
Upvote 0

ArmenianJohn

Politically Liberal Christian Fundamentalist
Jan 30, 2013
8,962
5,551
New Jersey (NYC Metro)
✟205,252.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
I thought it was unveiled on Palm Sunday, based on videos I have seen of Palm Sunday liturgies.
You're right - we have a ceremony called "opening the door" where the curtain is drawn on Palm Sunday so it is revealed for Holy Week.

Ok, so thats similar to Syriac Orthodoxy or some Lutheran and Anglican churches where auricular confession is less commonly practiced (but Martin Luther and the Anglicans in general do practice auricular confession, and some do it quite a bit). In the Coptic church it is more routine.
Thanks, I didn't know that about the other churches. My friends who are Ethiopian say theirs is like the Armenian Church and they don't do auricular confession. My Coptic friends have never said but honestly I think they don't do it, but I have never thought of it or asked either, so probably I just never knew. Also possible that they're supposed to do it and don't.
 
  • Useful
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
16,620
8,845
51
The Wild West
✟861,304.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
You're right - we have a ceremony called "opening the door" where the curtain is drawn on Palm Sunday so it is revealed for Holy Week.


Thanks, I didn't know that about the other churches. My friends who are Ethiopian say theirs is like the Armenian Church and they don't do auricular confession. My Coptic friends have never said but honestly I think they don't do it, but I have never thought of it or asked either, so probably I just never knew. Also possible that they're supposed to do it and don't.

The Copts at the parish I attended for three months did confession as part of Saturday Night Vespers, with the Evening Raising of Incense and the 9th, 11th and 12th hours, but disappointingly, no Psalmody. I only went once, but Abouna was hearing confessions for virtually the entire service, except on rare occasions when he had to do something that could not be done by the Psaltis (altar boys) or the Readers, who are called Deacons by most Copts even though they aren’t (I know an actual Coptic Deacon, Fr. Pavli, who lives at St. Anthony’s Monastery in California).
 
  • Like
Reactions: ArmenianJohn
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,797
12,126
Georgia
✟1,155,046.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Is one like Hitler who orchestrates a massacre as equally bad, as one who made a white lie?

I remember being in school and a teacher saying all sins are equally bad. .

No all sins are not the same.

But - all sins are bad and require the blood of Christ to cover them.. Adam and Eve were doomed/lost for "eating fruit".

==========================

However Lev 18 is a list of sins that get a nation wiped out -- and none of them are lying or coveting or swearing.

In addition in Ex 19 and 20 God calls the nation of Israel to obey -- but does not actually charge them with "sin" until 40 days later when they organize a feast around a false god golden calf. So all the white lies, coveting, angry thoughts among those millions of people at the foot of Sinai were not being counted as national-sin breaking the covenant.

In 1 Corinthians 5 they disfellowship someone for a gross sin - but notice that they don't disfellowship everyone in church that "covets" or has "angry thoughts toward others"
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
16,620
8,845
51
The Wild West
✟861,304.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Adam and Eve were doomed/lost for "eating fruit".

It is the doctrine of the early church that they were not damned, nor was anyone born before Christ, owing to the Harrowing of Hell.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,797
12,126
Georgia
✟1,155,046.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
It is the doctrine of the early church that they were not damned, nor was anyone born before Christ, owing to the Harrowing of Hell.

Well in the Bible (Rom 5) they needed salvation - they needed a savior to die for their sins - to take their second-death punishment. They had to accept the gospel or remain doomed. And they had a brand-new sinful nature to boot.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

GreekOrthodox

Psalti Chrysostom
Oct 25, 2010
4,120
4,200
Yorktown VA
✟191,452.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
but early Christians had much more faith and endurance, for the Church was a refuge from worldiness, so penances may have been more frequent, but they were never required in the Eastern churches, under the principle of spiritual economy, or oikonomia, which is one of two ways the canon law of the Eastern Churches can be applied, the other being I think akrivia @GreekOrthodox is that the right word? - which means something like precision or exactitude, with the choice of how to apply the canons left to the confessor.

Right, there is oikonomia and akrivia (or Akribeia depending on the spelling), loose or strict. So a person who confesses a particular sin once would probably would receive absolution without any discipline. "Father, I had a bit too much wine Friday night and got drunk". However, someone who habitually commits the same sin, and is not repentent, might not be permitted to take communion for a month.

During Lent, we fast from all animal products, meat and dairy, which means it is a carb-fest. I'm diabetic so the last time I tried following the fast, I was sick as a dog by the third week. So now, I limit my fast to Holy Week and the usual Wednesdays and Fridays. That is oikonomia. I miss following the full fast, but the Paschal Sermon of Chrysostom opens with

If any man be devout and love God, let him enjoy this fair and radiant triumphal feast. If any man be a wise servant, let him rejoicing enter into the joy of his Lord. If any have labored long in fasting, let him now receive his recompense. If any have wrought from the first hour, let him today receive his just reward. If any have come at the third hour, let him with thankfulness keep the feast. If any have arrived at the sixth hour, let him have no misgivings; because he shall in nowise be deprived thereof. If any have delayed until the ninth hour, let him draw near, fearing nothing. If any have tarried even until the eleventh hour, let him, also, be not alarmed at his tardiness; for the Lord, who is jealous of his honor, will accept the last even as the first; He gives rest unto him who comes at the eleventh hour, even as unto him who has wrought from the first hour.​

This opening always makes me tear up now as I have only fasted the eleventh hour.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
16,620
8,845
51
The Wild West
✟861,304.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Well in the Bible (Rom 5) they needed salvation - they needed a savior to die for their sins - to take their second-death punishment. They had to accept the gospel or remain doomed. And they had a brand-new sinful nature to boot.

The doctrine of the early Church is the doctrine of the Bible. We can evaluate modern churches by the extent to which they confirm to the doctrines of the early church at the time of the Council of Chalcedon (because, while at Chalcedon there was an extremely unfortunate and unwarranted schism between the Roman church and the Eastern Orthodox on the one hand, and the Oriental Orthodox on the other, a schism which should never have happened and which is in the process of being unwound by the close relations and limited intercommunion that exist between the Syriac and Antiochian Orthodox Churches, and the Coptic and Alexandrian Orthodox churches, and also the positive relationship that exists between the Armenian church and several Eastern Orthodox jurisdictions, for example, the Czech-Slovak Orthodox Church, which offered memorial services* for victims of the Genocide of 1915, where the Turks with swords committed actual murder and mayhem against innocent Armenian women and children, in the most appallingly brutal genocide I am aware of**.

*In many Orthodox churches including the Greek churches and the Orthodox Church in America, the tradition is to eat a pudding of Kolivas, which is very delicious, by the way, and a good incentive for families to request memorial services on the anniversaries of the repose of loved ones, which are spiritually beneficial. The Oriental Orthodox have their own traditions, for example, in the Syriac Orthodox, the families provide lunch for the parish. These memorial services are of extreme benefit to both the bereaved and the soul of the departed.

**the Nazi Holocaust genocide in contrast was characterized by a sickening industrialized and systematic imposition of well-organized murder in an assembly line fashion, whereas in the Turkish genicide, partisans, in the traditions of the Bashi Bazouks, who had conducted a similarly revolting genocide against Bulgarians and Romanians in the 1870s, which promoted outrage among all the European powers that saw an end to Ottoman rule in Eastern Europe; unfortunately, the genocide of Armenians and other Christians was so complete that handing Turkey over to Christian rule was not viable, nor even possible after the Bolsheviks overthrew the Provisional Government and formed the officially atheist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and conquered Armenia. This has created the perverse situation which continues to this day, where the West has failed to universally recognize the Turkish genocide, in part because of Turkey’s NATO membership and various complexities of geopolitics. Some European NATO members have recognized the genocide, and made its denial illegal, and while the First Amendment in the US allows genocide deniers to expose their vile opinions, which led to the prosecution for practicing engineering without a license of Fred Leuchter, the man who built Tennessee’s electric chair (the only recently built electric chair in the world) and installed execution equipment in several states, we positively should recognize by a congressional resolution, executive order or legislative bill, the Armenian genocide, as well as the concurrent genocides of the other Christians in Turkey, the Suroye (Syriac Orthodox and Syriac Catholics), the Assyrians and the Pontic Greeks, all of which happened in 1915 and are why several of the churches St. Paul wrote epistles to, and most of those our Lord sent instructions to in the apocalyptic revelation received by St. John the Apostle on Patmos, are not extant at least for the time being (although we should pray for a Christian repopulation of these churches; the ability to orchestrate this under EU Freedom of Movement would have been the primary benefit of Turkey joining the EU).
 
  • Like
Reactions: ArmenianJohn
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
16,620
8,845
51
The Wild West
✟861,304.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Right, there is oikonomia and akrivia (or Akribeia depending on the spelling), loose or strict. So a person who confesses a particular sin once would probably would receive absolution without any discipline. "Father, I had a bit too much wine Friday night and got drunk". However, someone who habitually commits the same sin, and is not repentent, might not be permitted to take communion for a month.

During Lent, we fast from all animal products, meat and dairy, which means it is a carb-fest. I'm diabetic so the last time I tried following the fast, I was sick as a dog by the third week. So now, I limit my fast to Holy Week and the usual Wednesdays and Fridays. That is oikonomia. I miss following the full fast, but the Paschal Sermon of Chrysostom opens with

If any man be devout and love God, let him enjoy this fair and radiant triumphal feast. If any man be a wise servant, let him rejoicing enter into the joy of his Lord. If any have labored long in fasting, let him now receive his recompense. If any have wrought from the first hour, let him today receive his just reward. If any have come at the third hour, let him with thankfulness keep the feast. If any have arrived at the sixth hour, let him have no misgivings; because he shall in nowise be deprived thereof. If any have delayed until the ninth hour, let him draw near, fearing nothing. If any have tarried even until the eleventh hour, let him, also, be not alarmed at his tardiness; for the Lord, who is jealous of his honor, will accept the last even as the first; He gives rest unto him who comes at the eleventh hour, even as unto him who has wrought from the first hour.​

This opening always makes me tear up now as I have only fasted the eleventh hour.

Well, as strange as this may sound, you can consider yourself lucky; after being diagnosed with multiple digestive ailments I was prohibited from fasting during my time in the OCA, and I consider these prohibitions to still be in effect while I am in service as a doctrinally orthodox Protestant.

Basically, I experience involuntary fasts, so when I do have an appetite, it is something of a blessing.

This creates a headache for my ministry, because like John Wesley, I am trying to teach people to fast on Wednesdays and Fridays (Wesley instructed them to attend church to pray the Litany, a service from the Anglican Divine Office, on those days as well; I don’t know of a single UMC parish that does this, however, there is a Nazarene parish in Kentucky that styles itself as Wesleyan Anglican, which I think has either revived this practice or intends to).

The challenge is in teaching them how to fast, I have to explain when not to fast, for example, due to health reasons, and the concept of oikonomia, and at the same time, the importance of not feeling guilty as a substitute for fasting, because the Patristic-Orthodox tradition is that fasts should be joyous (even Good Friday, or Great and Holy Friday as the Orthodox call it, has an element of triumph to it, in the evening, at the Funeral for our Lord, after the very sad Twelve Gospels Service and procession with the cross starting the day before.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,797
12,126
Georgia
✟1,155,046.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
The doctrine of the early Church is the doctrine of the Bible. .

Only as long as it is found to be so using the Act 17:11 and Mark 7:6-12 rule of sola scriptura testing.

As Paul warned us -
Acts 20:28 Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. 29 I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 30 and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them. 31 Therefore be on the alert, NASB 1955

28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. 29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. 31 So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears. NIV
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

GreekOrthodox

Psalti Chrysostom
Oct 25, 2010
4,120
4,200
Yorktown VA
✟191,452.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Well, as strange as this may sound, you can consider yourself lucky; after being diagnosed with multiple digestive ailments I was prohibited from fasting during my time in the OCA, and I consider these prohibitions to still be in effect while I am in service as a doctrinally orthodox Protestant.

I've known a few people with celiac, so they dont do any fasting from foods. Just additional prayer and services.
 
Upvote 0

RDKirk

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner
Site Supporter
Mar 3, 2013
42,919
23,633
US
✟1,807,616.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
There is a joke: A man asks a woman if she would sleep with him for a million dollars. She agrees. Then he asks her if she would sleep with him for twenty dollars. She exclaims angrily, "Do you think I'm a prostitute?" He replies, "We have already determined that. Now we're just haggling over the price."

I have learned in my life that anyone willing to justify a "small" sin under some circumstances will also justify a "big" sin under the right circumstances. A self-justifying sinner is just a sinner.

I think the fact that God knows this is why a "small" sin is as serious as a big sin.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: ArmenianJohn
Upvote 0

ArmenianJohn

Politically Liberal Christian Fundamentalist
Jan 30, 2013
8,962
5,551
New Jersey (NYC Metro)
✟205,252.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
The doctrine of the early Church is the doctrine of the Bible. We can evaluate modern churches by the extent to which they confirm to the doctrines of the early church at the time of the Council of Chalcedon (because, while at Chalcedon there was an extremely unfortunate and unwarranted schism between the Roman church and the Eastern Orthodox on the one hand, and the Oriental Orthodox on the other, a schism which should never have happened and which is in the process of being unwound by the close relations and limited intercommunion that exist between the Syriac and Antiochian Orthodox Churches, and the Coptic and Alexandrian Orthodox churches, and also the positive relationship that exists between the Armenian church and several Eastern Orthodox jurisdictions, for example, the Czech-Slovak Orthodox Church, which offered memorial services* for victims of the Genocide of 1915, where the Turks with swords committed actual murder and mayhem against innocent Armenian women and children, in the most appallingly brutal genocide I am aware of**.

*In many Orthodox churches including the Greek churches and the Orthodox Church in America, the tradition is to eat a pudding of Kolivas, which is very delicious, by the way, and a good incentive for families to request memorial services on the anniversaries of the repose of loved ones, which are spiritually beneficial. The Oriental Orthodox have their own traditions, for example, in the Syriac Orthodox, the families provide lunch for the parish. These memorial services are of extreme benefit to both the bereaved and the soul of the departed.

**the Nazi Holocaust genocide in contrast was characterized by a sickening industrialized and systematic imposition of well-organized murder in an assembly line fashion, whereas in the Turkish genicide, partisans, in the traditions of the Bashi Bazouks, who had conducted a similarly revolting genocide against Bulgarians and Romanians in the 1870s, which promoted outrage among all the European powers that saw an end to Ottoman rule in Eastern Europe; unfortunately, the genocide of Armenians and other Christians was so complete that handing Turkey over to Christian rule was not viable, nor even possible after the Bolsheviks overthrew the Provisional Government and formed the officially atheist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and conquered Armenia. This has created the perverse situation which continues to this day, where the West has failed to universally recognize the Turkish genocide, in part because of Turkey’s NATO membership and various complexities of geopolitics. Some European NATO members have recognized the genocide, and made its denial illegal, and while the First Amendment in the US allows genocide deniers to expose their vile opinions, which led to the prosecution for practicing engineering without a license of Fred Leuchter, the man who built Tennessee’s electric chair (the only recently built electric chair in the world) and installed execution equipment in several states, we positively should recognize by a congressional resolution, executive order or legislative bill, the Armenian genocide, as well as the concurrent genocides of the other Christians in Turkey, the Suroye (Syriac Orthodox and Syriac Catholics), the Assyrians and the Pontic Greeks, all of which happened in 1915 and are why several of the churches St. Paul wrote epistles to, and most of those our Lord sent instructions to in the apocalyptic revelation received by St. John the Apostle on Patmos, are not extant at least for the time being (although we should pray for a Christian repopulation of these churches; the ability to orchestrate this under EU Freedom of Movement would have been the primary benefit of Turkey joining the EU).
Just to give an "insider" view from the Armenian Church, and it is still my own personal view but I know many in my church feel the same or similarly... Our Church is cordial and feels kinship with all the others and with several in particular. All the Oriental Orthodox of course, but closest perhaps to Ethiopian and Syriac and Coptic, but close ties to all. Several Orthodox also like Greek, Russian, many Eastern European. But also very close and cordial with the Catholic Church, including Roman, Middle Eastern and Eastern European Catholic (like Greek and Ukrainian and others like various Arab Catholics), and of course our Armenian brethren in the Armenian Catholic Church, and even a brotherhood with Protestant Armenians although the history there has been bad.

But I think our Church doesn't see so much the "schism" as much as just a seaparation in organization. And I think our Church, recognizing that the Armenian people have certain needs that the Armenian Church helps meet, tries to fill the role of serving the entire Armenian community and diasporan communities. Whether an Armenian is in the Church or not, and even Christian or not, the Armenian Church is still a readily accessible cultural center for Armenians globally.

I don't think a Church should be too focused on cultural things but at the same time some Churches have this responsibility foisted upon them due to circumstances. A good example would be the Black Churches in America, which have served beyond the spiritual needs to their community and acted as cultural cetner as well and provided a cultural anchor in the community.

I myself prefer to see people as Christians despite the denomination. I accept all Christians as my brethren - Orthodox, Protestant, Catholic, all have Christians as well as fake Christians. I don't know each individual's heart so I don't know for sure who is true or fake, but I look at their fruits and I accept that all Churches have sufficient correct doctrinal belief about who God/Christ is and what the Gospel is so that the people can be true Christians and be in those churches.

I think of myself as a catholic Christian - small "c" catholic. Not ecumenical - I don't necessarily worry about the Churches uniting because I see the reality of that being unlikely. I worry more about those who are Christians being universal in our fellowship and love with each other and to focus on Christ more than on differences.

I get grief from a lot of people on all sides for my views and at the same time there are many from all sides who agree with me and support me in these beliefs.

I think many of our differences in tradition, ritual, process, ceremony, etc. are cultural and where things are different in most cases nobody is "right" vs. "wrong" but just different based on the needs of different cultural groups within the Church. That's how I think most Armenians see our Church's role and the roles of the other Churches. So we tend to appreciate the differences as actually good things and we try to put the differences UNDER a higher unity we have with all Christians universally.

Sorry that that was very rambling - it's kind of hard to put it all into words and I try not to give the wrong message or impression because I think it's kind of the critical issue in terms of Christians and our unity contrasted to our differences. It's too easy to accidentally stir up division where I want to recognize differences and then unite instead.

I appreciate how you are very liturgically minded and you take the time to explain to people, and more so that you are inclusive of all Churches' traditions to the best of your ability. Keep up the great work because I think you serve a good and important purpose here in CF and in the world in general.
 
Upvote 0

ArmenianJohn

Politically Liberal Christian Fundamentalist
Jan 30, 2013
8,962
5,551
New Jersey (NYC Metro)
✟205,252.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
I've known a few people with celiac, so they dont do any fasting from foods. Just additional prayer and services.
Like you, I am diabetic. Since being diagnosed, I don't fast in the traditional way anymore. My diabetes has very bad complications so I can have disabling effects very easily if I am not very strict and careful. I can't even go without eating for too long or my BG goes out of control. So my fasting is more about eliminating certain pleasurable foods. But as we've discussed elsehere, we know that fasting is the servant of us, we are the not the servants of fasting.
 
Upvote 0

GreekOrthodox

Psalti Chrysostom
Oct 25, 2010
4,120
4,200
Yorktown VA
✟191,452.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Like you, I am diabetic. Since being diagnosed, I don't fast in the traditional way anymore. My diabetes has very bad complications so I can have disabling effects very easily if I am not very strict and careful. I can't even go without eating for too long or my BG goes out of control. So my fasting is more about eliminating certain pleasurable foods. But as we've discussed elsehere, we know that fasting is the servant of us, we are the not the servants of fasting.

One thing I miss about fasting is that sense of community. Plus, lets face it, when you haven't had meat or dairy for 8-9 weeks, that Paschal meal is heaven!!
 
  • Like
Reactions: ArmenianJohn
Upvote 0

ArmenianJohn

Politically Liberal Christian Fundamentalist
Jan 30, 2013
8,962
5,551
New Jersey (NYC Metro)
✟205,252.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
One thing I miss about fasting is that sense of community. Plus, lets face it, when you haven't had meat or dairy for 8-9 weeks, that Paschal meal is heaven!!
True, but I miss the sense of community in feasting as well - it cuts both ways. That Paschal meal is limited also - I can't eat carbs (mostly) so I can't really "feast". My diabetic diet is like a permanently necessary fast of its own. I miss the Easter bread we have (choereg) and the knafeh (cake/pastry with cheese and doused in syrup) and borek (phyllo dough layers with feta and dill filling, similar to spanakopita but no spinach) and paklava and especially katayif. I think the point of fasting by abstaining from meat and dairy is lost on those of us who can only eat mostly meat and dairy. However, in Armenian tradition, fasting does include abstaining from carbs like bread and pastry also...
 
  • Informative
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
16,620
8,845
51
The Wild West
✟861,304.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Only as long as it is found to be so using the Act 17:11 and Mark 7:6-12 rule of sola scriptura testing.

As Paul warned us -
Acts 20:28 Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. 29 I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 30 and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them. 31 Therefore be on the alert, NASB 1955

28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. 29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. 31 So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears. NIV

Note that in this document, I shall be referring to the Book of Revelation, properly titled the Apocalypse of St. John and commonly known as Revelations in the vernacular, as the Apocalypse, as I feel it is more accurate since the book is the only canonical Apocalypse in the New Testament.

We can identify the savage wolves St. Paul warns us of as the heresiarchs like Marcion, who tried to distort the apostolic testimony of St. Paul to falsely claim that the Holy Apostle taught Marcion’s doctrine, that the LORD of the Old Testament was different from the God of the New Testament, and in opposition to Him, when in fact they are the same deity, as is proven by the Christological prophecy in the Old Testament, and Valentinus, Tatian, Severian, Montanus, Sabellius and other second century heresiarchs with their own doctrine. There was an explosion of heresy after the martyrdom of St. Paul in fact; before he was executed in Rome the only heresies we know of was that taught by Simon Magus, as well as some adherents of St. John the Baptist who did not accept our Lord, but after St. Paul we get Cerinthus, Basilides, Marcion, the Ebionites, and others, a veritable litany of heretics which St. John warns us about in his epistles, which are believed to postdate the Pauline epistles.

Furthermore, we are assured by Matthew 16:18 that the Gates of Hell will not prevail against the Christian Church, and they did not (this I personally believe is a scriptural oversight in Restorationism, whether we are talking about Quakers, some Baptist movements, the Stone-Campbell Movement, the short-lived 19th century Catholic Apostolic Church, or any other church which has a doctrine that it represents a restoration of the Apostolic Church).*

The Restorationist principle further collapses when we recall the Church at the Councils of Nicaea and Constantinople defined the Nicene Creed, which is the bulk of the Christian Forums Statement of Faith (along with a few addendums to deal with problems not faced by the Nicene Church, such as a prohibition on the denial of the apostolate of St. Paul, because apparently some wackos joined the site and tried to teach that, and other strange doctrines; the Christian Forums Statement of Faith would make an ideal ecumenical Statement of Faith, actually, as it is broadly inclusive of Nicene Christians while excluding the various cults that now exist, which is what St. Paul was actually warning us about. The SDA also affirms that their beliefs align with this creed.

We can further identify the the Nicene Church as legitimate because it propagated, in the 5th century, with the help of St. Augustine and the Roman pontiff Gelasius, the 27 book Athanasian Creed which all Christian churches agree on. And we know for a fact that before St. Athanasius, no one else, not Eusebius, not Origen, not St. Irenaeus, not St. Jerome, and not the compilers of the Syriac Peshitta, whose views were broadly consistent with the Catechetical School of Antioch, had agreed on the precise 27 books St. Athanasius enumerated as protocanon. They either omitted books, or gradated the canon, with the Apocalypse (Revelation) lumped in with the Shepherd of Hermas and 1 Barnabas, or deleted the it along with 2 Peter, 2 John, 3 John, Jude, and in several cases Hebrews, Timothy, Titus and Philemon, as all of those books were of disputed authenticity, before St. Athanasius declared them canonical in the Church of Alexandria (which at the time included all of Egypt (with the possible exception of Sinai, now an autonomous part of the Church of Jerusalem), the Sudan and Ethiopia, and possibly Libya or portions thereof). Once he had done that, this list found favor in the Roman Church, which according to your own Ellen G White in The Great Controversy was not yet under illegitimate control, and the Roman and Alexandrian churches prevailed over the Antioch-educated Patriarch of Constantinople, Nestorius, at the Council of Ephesus in 433, and most of the Catechetical School of Antioch which fought against the inclusion of the Apocalypse, which is central to Adventist doctrine, was banished to Nisibis.

So, because of this, we can assert the Church at the time of the Council of Ephesus at least was completely dogmatically Orthodox, and not what St. Paul was warning us about.

* Even if one is committed to Restorationist doctrine, which is to say the ifea that the Great Apostasy is not a prophecy of future or present events (which seems to me more likely given the decline in Christianity and the increase in persecution of Christians in historically Christian lands, starting with Canada, but now extending to the UK, Canada, and various EU countries, where the free expression of scriptural doctrine concerning homosexuality is being muzzled and American evangelists of a conservative theological orientation are being denied entry), the problem becomes, when did the Great Apostasy happen? The problem is that if you say it happened immediately after the death of St. Paul, that’s a problem because the Apocalypse was written long after the martyrdom of St. Paul, with the traditional date of composition being sometime between 75 and 90 AD,** and if you date it to the repose of St. John the Apostle, traditionally dated to the final decade of the first century, which seems that much more plausible given the reasonable presupposition that he was a teenager during his discipleship of Jesus Christ (which would explain the special love our Lord had for him, as for all children, possible youthful immaturity on his part and the part of his older brother St. James the Great, who would likely have been in his early 20s in this scenario, and our Lord entrusting him to the matrimony of his own mother from the Cross), or the conversion of St. Constantine, these ideas run into an equally severe problem, that being that the Nicene Creed, which defined what it means to be a Christian, was defined at the Council of Nicaea, convened by St. Constantine, and the Council of Constantinople, convened by St. Theodosius (with the Roman church adhering but not actively participating in these councils, sending only a few legates and no bishops) and the canon of St. Athanasius, which was the first to definitively pronounce the Apocalypse as canonical, was written in the fourth century, and was universally accepted in the fifth.

This is not a problem for Protestant churches as a whole, because it was obvious even to Roman Catholics that the Roman church under Pope Leo X, and especially Pope Alexander VI, of the infamous Borgias, required Reformation, hence the Counter Reformation which abandoned the sale of indulgences and introduced seminaries, so only qualified men could be ordained to the priesthood (I still believe that a discerning bishop or senior presbyter should have the prerogative of ordination, and several churches including ROCOR, the Assyrian Church of the East, and the Coptic Orthodox Church, as well as some Protestant churches, do not require seminary education, but in the Roman church it may have been a needed reform as you had the Borgias and others appointing young teenagers to the episcopate, and also there was a problem with illicit simony; the Roman Church also does not subscribe to the ancient canon followed in the East which sets the minimum age for a presbyter to 30). So, the churches of the Protestant Reformation actually helped the Roman Church, by forcing the much needed reforms of the Counter Reformation.

From an ecumenical perspective, we can arguably date the problems with the Roman church to the schism with the Eastern churches, and indeed two of the earliest Protestants, St. Jan Hus and St. Jerome of Prague, were glorified as martyrs by the Czech-Slovak Orthodox Church because of their work to restore Orthodox practices such as a Slavic-language liturgy and communion in both kinds, which had been offered before Austria conquered what we now call the Czech Republic. Additionally, the Lutherans believed their reforms were in accord with the doctrines of the Greek church and it was a disappointment that the dialogue between Lutheran theologians and Patriarch Jeremias II was unsuccessful.

Restorationism confuses the issue, by assuming that a Great Apostasy that was somehow either the fault of collusion between the Roman Church and Emperor Constantine, despite the fact that Constantine had a much closer relationship with the Church of Constantinople, which he set up, and the Roman Church barely participated in Nicaea other than to send non-voting legates in support of St. Alexander of Alexandria and his successor as Patriarch, St. Athanasius, against Arius, and the Council of Constantinople likewise revised the creed to exclude more doctrines that we would agree today constitute a departure from Christianity, such as Macedonianism, the belief that the Holy Spirit is not a divine person. And it was St. Athanasius, who procured the removal of Arius, whose doctrines were rejec5ed by Ellen G. White, also defined the Athanasian Canon.

So from a Restorationist perspective, the best course of action for the SDA is to define the Great Apostasy as occurring in 538, or being confined to the Western church or parts of the church other than Alexandria and the persons of St. Athanasius, because Ellen White’s doctrine depends on the pro-Trinitarian outcome of the Council of Nicaea, and the adoption of canon of St. Athanasius by the entire Christian Church in the fifth century.

I personally prefer the approach of the Christian Church/Disciples of Christ, the direct descendant of the Stone-Campbell movement, which has become a mainline Protestant church in ecumenical relations with other mainline churches which are not Restorationist, open to dialogue, using the Revised Common Lectionary and being a part of liturgical Christianity, while retaining a nominally Restorationist heritage mainly in the form of credo-Baptism.

** some dubious scholars of the sort one might find at the Harvard Divinity School, which is almost as overrated as the Harvard Business School*** dating it to the second century, but I reject their opinion.

*** The Harvard Business School is disproportionately represented among the ranks of CEOs of American companies whose management practices and compensation could be considered controversial, and among the ranks of McKinsey & Co., the most prestigious (in every sense of the word) management consultancy, whose past clients include a disportioncate number of businesses which were liquidated or went through Chapter 11 reorganization.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,797
12,126
Georgia
✟1,155,046.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Note that in this document, I shall be referring to the Book of Revelation, properly titled the Apocalypse of St. John and commonly known as Revelations in the vernacular, as the Apocalypse, as I feel it is more accurate since the book is the only canonical Apocalypse in the New Testament.

We can identify the savage wolves St. Paul warns us of as the heresiarchs like Marcion, who tried to distort the apostolic testimony of St. Paul to falsely claim that the Holy Apostle taught Marcion’s doctrine, that the LORD of the Old Testament was different from the God of the New Testament,

1. Paul's statement in Acts 20 does not place any limit on what sorts of error would come in - as we see in the text.

2. In 3 John 1 we get a good look at how this was happening in the first century.
3 John 1: 9 I wrote something to the church; but Diotrephes, who loves to be first among them, does not accept what we say. 10 For this reason, if I come, I will call attention to his deeds which he does, unjustly accusing us with wicked words; and not satisfied with this, he himself does not receive the brethren, either, and he forbids those who desire to do so and puts them out of the church

3. In 2 John 1
9 Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting; 11 for the one who gives him a greeting participates in his evil deeds.

4. In 1 Tim 1:
3 As I urged you upon my departure for Macedonia, remain on at Ephesus so that you may instruct certain men not to teach strange doctrines, 4 nor to pay attention to myths and endless genealogies, which give rise to mere speculation rather than furthering the administration of God which is by faith. 5 But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6 For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion, 7 wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions.

4. Titus 1
7 For the overseer must be above reproach as God’s steward, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not addicted to wine, not pugnacious, not fond of sordid gain, 8 but hospitable, loving what is good, sensible, just, devout, self-controlled, 9 holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict.
10 For there are many rebellious men, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, 11 who must be silenced because they are upsetting whole families, teaching things they should not teach for the sake of sordid gain. 12 One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” 13 This testimony is true. For this reason reprove them severely so that they may be sound in the faith, 14 not paying attention to Jewish myths and commandments of men who turn away from the truth. 15 To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled. 16 They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed.

5. Jude 1
3 Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints. 4 For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

8 Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile angelic majesties. ...10 But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed. 11 Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam, and perished in the rebellion of Korah. 12 These are the men who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; 13 wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever.

==================

Bottom line is - we see these teachers of error - inside the church -- all over the place in the first century church - no need to wait till the 2nd or 3rd century to find the problem.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
16,620
8,845
51
The Wild West
✟861,304.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Just to give an "insider" view from the Armenian Church, and it is still my own personal view but I know many in my church feel the same or similarly... Our Church is cordial and feels kinship with all the others and with several in particular. All the Oriental Orthodox of course, but closest perhaps to Ethiopian and Syriac and Coptic, but close ties to all. Several Orthodox also like Greek, Russian, many Eastern European. But also very close and cordial with the Catholic Church, including Roman, Middle Eastern and Eastern European Catholic (like Greek and Ukrainian and others like various Arab Catholics), and of course our Armenian brethren in the Armenian Catholic Church, and even a brotherhood with Protestant Armenians although the history there has been bad.

But I think our Church doesn't see so much the "schism" as much as just a seaparation in organization. And I think our Church, recognizing that the Armenian people have certain needs that the Armenian Church helps meet, tries to fill the role of serving the entire Armenian community and diasporan communities. Whether an Armenian is in the Church or not, and even Christian or not, the Armenian Church is still a readily accessible cultural center for Armenians globally.

I don't think a Church should be too focused on cultural things but at the same time some Churches have this responsibility foisted upon them due to circumstances. A good example would be the Black Churches in America, which have served beyond the spiritual needs to their community and acted as cultural cetner as well and provided a cultural anchor in the community.

I myself prefer to see people as Christians despite the denomination. I accept all Christians as my brethren - Orthodox, Protestant, Catholic, all have Christians as well as fake Christians. I don't know each individual's heart so I don't know for sure who is true or fake, but I look at their fruits and I accept that all Churches have sufficient correct doctrinal belief about who God/Christ is and what the Gospel is so that the people can be true Christians and be in those churches.

I think of myself as a catholic Christian - small "c" catholic. Not ecumenical - I don't necessarily worry about the Churches uniting because I see the reality of that being unlikely. I worry more about those who are Christians being universal in our fellowship and love with each other and to focus on Christ more than on differences.

I get grief from a lot of people on all sides for my views and at the same time there are many from all sides who agree with me and support me in these beliefs.

I think many of our differences in tradition, ritual, process, ceremony, etc. are cultural and where things are different in most cases nobody is "right" vs. "wrong" but just different based on the needs of different cultural groups within the Church. That's how I think most Armenians see our Church's role and the roles of the other Churches. So we tend to appreciate the differences as actually good things and we try to put the differences UNDER a higher unity we have with all Christians universally.

Sorry that that was very rambling - it's kind of hard to put it all into words and I try not to give the wrong message or impression because I think it's kind of the critical issue in terms of Christians and our unity contrasted to our differences. It's too easy to accidentally stir up division where I want to recognize differences and then unite instead.

I appreciate how you are very liturgically minded and you take the time to explain to people, and more so that you are inclusive of all Churches' traditions to the best of your ability. Keep up the great work because I think you serve a good and important purpose here in CF and in the world in general.

Thank you my friend. It means a lot to me. With your permission, I would like to send you a PM about my positive experiences with Armenians specifically.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ArmenianJohn
Upvote 0