Are ‘Antifa’ and the Alt-Right Equally Violent?

[KCfromNC]

"But they're not as violent as the Nazis" is a really weak excuse.

Given that a Nazi sympathizer just murdered someone last week, it isn't as if it is a red herring or anything. I mean yeah, potential violence from any group is a theoretical worry but I have no idea why certain posters are so fixated on the potential problems with a fringe left-wing group given the recent history of an actual real-life murder by a right-wing one.

 

[Gadarene]

I feel like I'm having to repeat myself a lot here, but maybe it will sink in this time.

Given that a Nazi sympathizer just murdered someone last week, it isn't as if it is a red herring or anything.

It is when only one side is expected to denounce its violent contingent.

I mean yeah, potential violence from any group is a theoretical worry

Not theoretical in the case of far left groups like antifa. Given the recent case of a college professor hitting people with a bike lock and antifa black bloc activists turning up to protests armed with baseball bats and knives it's sheer dumb luck that antifa weren't the first to have killed. Hence part of the reason why "ooh but they're not *as* violent" is a weak deflection.

but I have no idea why certain posters are so fixated on the potential problems with a fringe left-wing group given the recent history of an actual real-life murder by a right-wing one.

Because as I mentioned above, only one side is being demanded they denounce their extremists. It harms the left's credibility and only widens the divide.

 

[KCfromNC]

Not theoretical in the case of far left groups like antifa. Given the recent case of a college professor hitting people with a bike lock and antifa black bloc activists turning up to protests armed with baseball bats and knives it's sheer dumb luck that antifa weren't the first to have killed. Hence part of the reason why "ooh but they're not *as* violent" is a weak deflection.

You haven't listed any actual murders it seems less a weak deflection and more a simple fact.

Because as I mentioned above, only one side is being demanded they denounce their extremists. It harms the left's credibility and only widens the divide.

Not sure who you're listening to, but I'm hearing lots of calls for the left to distance themselves from their violent subgroups. Granted, it is a pathetic attempt to distract from the fact that actual Nazis and KKK members were marching to "unite the right" but it is out there.

 

[Gadarene]

You haven't listed any actual murders it seems less a weak deflection and more a simple fact.

It is a deflection when it is rolled out as an excuse to ignore the (slightly less) serious violence coming from the left. Setting about people with a bikelock as one antifa protester in Berkeley did didn't leave people dead through sheer dumb luck. The left is acting - as usual - as if it has the moral high ground (unjustifiably - also as usual).

Not sure who you're listening to, but I'm hearing lots of calls for the left to distance themselves from their violent subgroups.

Yes, from the right mainly. And look how seriously those calls are being taken...

Granted, it is a pathetic attempt to distract from the fact that actual Nazis and KKK members were marching to "unite the right" but it is out there.

....when compared to the right actually denouncing the extremists on their side when demanded to primarily by the left.

Why do you expect people to keep listening to hypocrites? On what planet does that work?

As usual, getting many on the left to admit their side is ever at fault is like pulling teeth from an angry shark.

 

[Gadarene]

‘Antifa’ radicals aren’t good because they fight Nazis

Many liberals, particularly in the media, are victims of the same kind of confusion that vexed so much of American liberalism in the 20th century. Because antifa suddenly has the (alt-)right enemies, they must be the good guys. They’re not.

And that’s why this debate is so toxically stupid. Fine, antifa isn’t as bad as the KKK. Who cares? Since when is being less bad than the Klan a major moral accomplishment?

 

[Rion]

It is a deflection when it is rolled out as an excuse to ignore the (slightly less) serious violence coming from the left. Setting about people with a bikelock as one antifa protester in Berkeley did didn't leave people dead through sheer dumb luck. The left is acting - as usual - as if it has the moral high ground (unjustifiably - also as usual).



Yes, from the right mainly. And look how seriously those calls are being taken...



....when compared to the right actually denouncing the extremists on their side when demanded to primarily by the left.

Why do you expect people to keep listening to hypocrites? On what planet does that work?

As usual, getting many on the left to admit their side is ever at fault is like pulling teeth from an angry shark.

The only reason the left doesn't have a higher body count at this point is because their nutters can't aim worth crap.

 

[Gadarene]

The only reason the left doesn't have a higher body count at this point is because their nutters can't aim worth crap.

I think there is probably a slightly greater willingness among the far right to use firearms as well as use jihadi-car-of-peace tactics out of a sense "well the Muslims get to do it, why can't we".

I don't think that will necessarily remain the case forever, not least because of the pattern of escalation we've already seen.

 

[Rion]

I think there is probably a slightly greater willingness among the far right to use firearms as well as use jihadi-car-of-peace tactics out of a sense "well the Muslims get to do it, why can't we".

I don't think that will necessarily remain the case forever, not least because of the pattern of escalation we've already seen.

Those are Trucks of Peace!

 

[Gadarene]

Those are Trucks of Peace!

they're cars of peace now, whitey has culturally appropriated them

 

[Petros2015]

I think there is probably a slightly greater willingness among the far right to use firearms as well as use jihadi-car-of-peace tactics out of a sense "well the Muslims get to do it, why can't we".

I think the willingness is probably more than slightly greater. I'm not sure what the breakdown of armed trained militia #'s is by political extremist side, but I'm going to guess it skews pretty hard to the alt-right.

That being said, I don't want to see Antifa showing up with firepower to counter firepower. That's a powderkeg that could easily turn into an ongoing bloodbath with bystander casualties the first time someone gets a trigger finger or even if Joe Schmoe sets off a firecracker. The fact that there were NO shots fired in Charlottesville amazes me, and if there had been 1, there would have be 1000. We still might see something like that happen.

Militia organizations in the United States - Wikipedia

 

[Gadarene]

I think the willingness is probably more than slightly greater. I'm not sure what the breakdown of armed trained militia #'s is by political extremist side, but I'm going to guess it skews pretty hard to the alt-right.

That being said, I don't want to see Antifa showing up with firepower to counter firepower. That's a powderkeg that could easily turn into an ongoing bloodbath with bystander casualties the first time someone gets a trigger finger or even if Joe Schmoe sets off a firecracker. The fact that there were NO shots fired in Charlottesville amazes me, and if there had been 1, there would have be 1000. We still might see something like that happen.

Militia organizations in the United States - Wikipedia

Possibly. Antifa groups and the groups they infiltrate will have plenty of antigun liberals in it to begin with which would dilute the tendency down.

Whereas even the non-Nazis on the conservative side of things are more likely to be in favour of carrying firearms as a first principle.

I must say I was rather impressed with the armed militia who showed up to try and keep the peace and allow both sides to have their say - they are concerned about antifa from previous protests they've been at but in their opinion the rightwing protesters were the instigators this time.

New Derry militia leader: Charlottesville presence an effort to be 'pro-government,' free speech

If this sort of thing disturbs people they would do well to encourage town police forces and those in command of them to do their jobs and not retreat when two volatile groups are there to protest both sides of the same issue.

 

[ananda]

Careful now, that's fascist talk. /s

IMO the true left and true right consists of thoughtful, rational, intelligent individuals who depend on persuasion through free speech, dialogue, and superior reasoning to convince others to voluntarily join their side.

The far-left/alt-left/antifa/communist and far-right/alt-right/antico/nazi-fascist groups are none of the above, but instead rely on force, compulsion, and violence to compel others to side with them. They are emotionally unstable, and - like immature children - act and rely on emotion and their ability to outshout others, and can provide little to no persuasive, rational arguments besides "my feelings".

 

[tall73]

That being said, I don't want to see Antifa showing up with firepower to counter firepower.

According to their own website, and an article from the LA times a leftist group called Redneck Revolt, who's slogan is "putting the red back in redneck" had members present with tactical gear and long guns. They indicated they had 20 members in the park which was supposed to be the site of the rally, open carrying tactical rifles.

A quote:

At many points during the day, groups of white supremacists approached Justice Park, but at each instance, Redneck Revolt members formed a unified skirmish line against them, and the white supremacists backed down.

Who was responsible for the violence in Charlottesville? Here's what witnesses say

In other words, they set up ahead of time in the area that the protest was to occur in and turned away those who approached.

On their website they indicate that they also opposed to capitalism.

 

[381465]

Why are some using murder as the only act of violence?

Why is anyone bringing up firearms in context of VA event/protest/murder?
Was the innocent victim shot by a car or mowed down by an AR?

 

[ThatRobGuy]

It depends on the group and the particular event.

There are some events in which the alt right are the escalators, and others where antifa are...

The issue is that people from both sides cherry pick the particular incident where the opposition were the guilty party (in terms of initiating physicality), and highlight those as if they represent the entirety of the situation.

You go to any left-wing site, you'll see pictures of alt-right pulling guns and attacking leftists...you go to the right wing sites, you'll see pics of bloodied up Trump supporters who got punched and hooligans throwing pee bottles and lighting dumpsters on fire to prevent a speaker from doing a presentation.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

View attachment 205659

All agree that in terms of number of incidents, that graphic is certainly accurate based on the broad definition the FBI uses to define "terror/extremist attack"

However, an honest candid assessment would be that the words "terror & extremist attack" aren't quite granular enough to actually describe the impact that a certain event might have.

For example, the graphic is operating the premise that Pulse Night Club and Vandalizing a Jewish Synagogue are in the same category so that's one tick in the Islamic Terror column, and one tick in the Right Wing column.

So while it's true if you took the broad definition used by the FBI and set up a tally system where you put a tick in each column, the graphic is accurate. However, if you by actual casualties and body count, it's a very different story.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Just don't touch those monuments. Leave history to history. Problem solved.

Here's the issue with that particular line of reasoning (and I touched on it in a few other threads).

These statues aren't "historical" in the sense that people seem to think they are.

People speak as if they're under the impression that these monuments were put up by people who served under these men to pay respect to commanding officers they knew and respected.

The reality is, most of these monuments were put up in 1910-1930 by Jim Crow segregationists who never personally knew the men, they just wanted to send a message. Or another way of putting it, the same men putting up the statues of confederate generals were the same men putting up signs that stated that "colored people" had to use a different bathroom.

The "historical value" angle is a bit of a disingenuous one when you consider the facts and the context.


A comparable example...while it's true that the American-Indian wars were part of our history that certainly need to be remembered... It'd be like if a group of Anti-Native American bigots started propping up monuments to Andrew Jackson's generals right next to the Indian reservations 70 years after the fact, and when confronted about it, tried to use the rationale of "well, the events were part of our history and we can't forget history".

It'd be pretty obvious at that point what their agenda was and people would quickly realize "wait a minute, this has nothing to do with history, you're just taunting the people you don't like"

That's what was happening when Jim Crow era leaders were putting up those confederate statues in the 1920's & 30's.

 

[Sketcher]

Do they need to be? Antifa's beginning reminds me of the SA.

 

[KCfromNC]

The only reason the left doesn't have a higher body count at this point is because their nutters can't aim worth crap.

Yep, that's the only possible explanation why the Nazis and the KKK appear to be worse than the people opposing them. Good job figuring it out.

 

[tall73]

Why are some using murder as the only act of violence?

Why is anyone bringing up firearms in context of VA event/protest/murder?
Was the innocent victim shot by a car or mowed down by an AR?

Because both sides bringing weapons, firearms, clubs, etc. indicates some anticipation of the possibility of violence. Or the desire to intimidate. It could be argued some intended them to moderate as well. Bringing a car does not show the same forethought, though it can be used as a weapon.

Hence the 20 men armed with tactical rifles at the park turned away white supremacists throughout the day because of their weapons, not their cars.