Arbp Vigano's latest open Letter on 2024 election: crucial to vote!

[fide]

Link: HERE. Catholics and non-Catholics in America who have any doubts, please read this. The world and humanity may be at a final fork in the road, here and now.
Also a podcast with R. Moynahan & Fr Murr on the Letter discuss it.

 

[RileyG]

Reminder, he is no longer an Archbishop for those reading.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Reminder, he is no longer an Archbishop for those reading.

Thankfully!

Vigano has many problems of his own.

 

[fide]

Reminder, he is no longer an Archbishop for those reading.

Are you sure about that? Did he get un-ordained? ("Priest forever....")

 

[RileyG]

Are you sure about that? Did he get un-ordained? ("Priest forever....")

You are correct, you cannot get un-ordained. He no longer recognizes the Pope and is a sedevacantist, thus not a Catholic anymore.

 

[fide]

You are correct, you cannot get un-ordained. He no longer recognizes the Pope and is a sedevacantist, thus not a Catholic anymore.

I don't think you can say that, either. His Baptism into Christ and the Church cannot be erased: that mark is eternal. The pope can refuse to recognize him, but the pope cannot separate what God has joined. The pope can order the refusal of communion with him on the part of the institutional Church, but his communion with the Church on his part is an interior and spiritual reality which the pope cannot touch.

The question of an unjust excommunication is another matter, which will be resolved by the Lord.

 

[concretecamper]

His views on Harris are spot on. I can't imagine a Catholic voting for her. But I am so sure many will, such a sad commentary on the state of Church in the US.

 

[mourningdove~]

You are correct, you cannot get un-ordained. He no longer recognizes the Pope and is a sedevacantist, thus not a Catholic anymore.

Does that invalidate what he has said about this election?
For me, it doesn't. I appreciate his speaking out about it.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Are you sure about that? Did he get un-ordained? ("Priest forever....")

Well he was excommunicated by the Vatican, so does he still keep the title of Archbishop?

The case of Archbishop Viganò was somewhat cut-and-dried in comparison to other cases of excommunication in recent decades. The one-time papal nuncio to the United States has waged a six-year public relations campaign against Pope Francis, demanding the pope resign and declaring the pontiff a heretic. In recent years, he has also released increasingly erratic statements, including a claim that a global conspiracy headed by the United Nations, NATO and the International Monetary Fund sought to introduce a world government.

He also stated that “with this ‘Bergoglian church,’ no Catholic worthy of the name can be in communion.” That last bit wouldn’t have helped his defense—a moot point in any case, as Archbishop Viganò refused to participate in the trial and rejected the Vatican’s authority to judge him.

Explainer: Archbishop Viganò excommunicated himself. What does that mean?

Friday’s announcement that Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò had incurred a ‘latae sententiae’ excommunication sent many reporters (and more than a few Catholics) looking for some clarity. Here’s what you need to know.

www.americamagazine.org

and

Vatican excommunicates Archbishop Carlo Maria Vigano for schism

The ultra-conservative archbishop was found guilty of splitting with the Catholic church.

www.bbc.com

Either way, Vigano is hardly a model Catholic for us to follow.

 

[mourningdove~]

Either way, Vigano is hardly a model Catholic for us to follow.

SO ... does that mean one shouldn't pay any attention to anything he may say, even if what he may be speaking is truth?

Please help me to understand. I'm not being facetious in asking, but ...

Since some in the Church see Vigano as 'the scum of the earth', does that mean they should ignore what he has to say about the American election?

As I see it, this thread is not about Vigano. It's about his thoughts on the election.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

SO ... does that mean one shouldn't pay any attention to anything he may say, even if what he may be speaking is truth?

Please help me to understand. I'm not being facetious in asking, but ...

Since some in the Church see Vigano as 'the scum of the earth', does that mean they should ignore what he has to say about the American election?

As I see it, this thread is not about Vigano. It's about his thoughts on the election.

He's a false teacher and should not be listened to as long as he opposes
the Catholic Church.

You wouldn't listen to anyone else caught being deceptive and dishonest.

 

[concretecamper]

He's a false teacher and should not be listened to as long as he opposes
the Catholic Church.

Hmm, no one opposing the Catholic Church should be listened to about any topic? Radical to say the least.

And just to set the record straight, the Pope is not the Church. One can oppose the Pope and be faithful to the Church.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Hmm, no one opposing the Catholic Church should be listened to about any topic? Radical to say the least.

And just to set the record straight, the Pope is not the Church. One can oppose the Pope and be faithful to the Church.

The Vatican magisterium is part of the Catholic Church. They excommunicated Vigano for his behavior and
statements against Pope Francis.

It all began when then Archbishop Vigano blindsided Pope Francis when the Pope made his first visit to the US.
Vigano set up an unauthorized meeting between the Pope and Kim Davis, a city clerk in Kentucky, who refused
to give a marriage license to a gay couple. Vigano even notified the US media about the meeting and they setup
outside the building. The Pope was unaware any of this was to take place. As a result, then Archbishop Vigano
was passed over for elevation to Cardinal and he was forced to retire at age 75. He then released a letter between
himself and the Pope to the public, which was illegal.

He even called Pope Francis a heretic.

 

[mourningdove~]

He's a false teacher and should not be listened to as long as he opposes
the Catholic Church.

Well, I don't agree (about not listening) but apparently I am not walking on such a 'narrow path' as you are.
(One can listen, and still choose not to believe ... )

I don't know how one goes thru this life only listening to 'pro-Catholic' voices, or if I even think that is wise, but, to each his own!

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Well, I don't agree (about not listening) but apparently I am not walking on such a 'narrow path' as you are.
(One can listen, and still choose not to believe ... )

I don't know how one goes thru this life only listening to 'pro-Catholic' voices, or if I even think that is wise, but, to each his own!

Perhaps you don't understand the spiritual meaning behind the word, "listen."

Just hearing his words, I have no problem with. Taking his words to heart as truth over
that which the Church teaches I do have a problem with.

The Church didn't just silence Vigano like they did St Padre Pio, the excommunicated him.

If you like Vigano and dislike Pope Francis, I need not saw more.

 

[fide]

Well he was excommunicated by the Vatican, so does he still keep the title of Archbishop?

The case of Archbishop Viganò was somewhat cut-and-dried in comparison to other cases of excommunication in recent decades. The one-time papal nuncio to the United States has waged a six-year public relations campaign against Pope Francis, demanding the pope resign and declaring the pontiff a heretic. In recent years, he has also released increasingly erratic statements, including a claim that a global conspiracy headed by the United Nations, NATO and the International Monetary Fund sought to introduce a world government.

He also stated that “with this ‘Bergoglian church,’ no Catholic worthy of the name can be in communion.” That last bit wouldn’t have helped his defense—a moot point in any case, as Archbishop Viganò refused to participate in the trial and rejected the Vatican’s authority to judge him.

Explainer: Archbishop Viganò excommunicated himself. What does that mean?

Friday’s announcement that Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò had incurred a ‘latae sententiae’ excommunication sent many reporters (and more than a few Catholics) looking for some clarity. Here’s what you need to know.

www.americamagazine.org

and

Vatican excommunicates Archbishop Carlo Maria Vigano for schism

The ultra-conservative archbishop was found guilty of splitting with the Catholic church.

www.bbc.com

Either way, Vigano is hardly a model Catholic for us to follow.

Are you completely confident that God approves the "new" Vatican II Catholic Church that has borne its latest fruit, Francis? Vigano is calling this latest fruit, using a term that is completely understandable in the light of history and Catholic Tradition, something unlike anything we have seen before, a church not in continuity with the past, and hence this "Bergoglian church". It seems Vigano has concluded that this man is "hardly a model Catholic for us to follow."

Have you carefully studied and listened to the Book of Revelation? There is much in it with strong descriptors fitting to these present times.

What do you think of Arbp Fulton Sheen's description of the End Times of the Church? Bp. A. Schneider included much from Arbp Sheen concerning these troubled times in his book, Christus Vincit: Christ’s Triumph Over the Darkness of the Age (pp. 306-307):

The current crisis within the Church represents the deepest form of suffering, since the Church is now persecuted, scourged, stripped, and derided not by her enemies but to a large extent by her Shepherds, by many of those who are successors of the Apostles, by many traitors in the clerical ranks who are the new Judases. Here I cannot fail to quote the following words of Archbishop Fulton Sheen, which he wrote in 1948 and which are strikingly relevant and significant for the current situation:

“[Satan] will set up a Counter-church, which will be the ape of the Church. It will have all the notes and characteristics of the Church, but in reverse and emptied of its divine content.... The False Prophet will have a religion without a cross. A religion without a world to come. A religion to destroy religions. There will be a counterfeit Church. Christ’s Church will be one, and the False Prophet will create the other. The false Church will be worldly, ecumenical, and global. It will be a loose federation of churches and religions, forming some type of global association, a world parliament of Churches. It will be emptied of all divine content; it will be the mystical body of the Antichrist. The Mystical Body on earth today will have its Judas Iscariot, and he will be the False Prophet. Satan will recruit him from our bishops.”​

....
When Christ suffered in Gethsemane, He was strengthened by an angel. This is a deep mystery: God in His human nature wanted to be consoled and strengthened by a creature. In this enormous spiritual crisis we are witnessing inside the Church, Christ is being consoled and strengthened by the souls who remain faithful to the purity of the Catholic faith, by souls who live a chaste Christian life, by souls who are committed to a life of intense prayer, by souls who do not run away from the suffering Christ, from the suffering Mother Church. The consolation and strength which Christ received from the angel in Gethsemane already contained the acts of expiation and reparation of all the faithful souls throughout the history of the Church. So many souls are suffering in our day, especially over the past fifty years, because of the tremendous crisis of the Church. The most precious are hidden sufferings of the little ones, of the persons who were put out to the periphery of Church by the liberal, worldly, and unbelieving ecclesiastical establishment. Their sufferings are precious, since they are consoling and strengthening Christ who is mystically suffering in our current crisis within the Church.

Vigano is a very public example and a prelate - perhaps that is his crime - but in his heart, perhaps, only one of the "little ones of the persons who were put out to the periphery of Church," a very different version of the Catholic Church than we have seen before.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Are you completely confident that God approves the "new" Vatican II Catholic Church that has borne its latest fruit, Francis? Vigano is calling this latest fruit, using a term that is completely understandable in the light of history and Catholic Tradition, something unlike anything we have seen before, a church not in continuity with the past, and hence this "Bergoglian church". It seems Vigano has concluded that this man is "hardly a model Catholic for us to follow."

Have you carefully studied and listened to the Book of Revelation? There is much in it with strong descriptors fitting to these present times.

What do you think of Arbp Fulton Sheen's description of the End Times of the Church? Bp. A. Schneider included much from Arbp Sheen concerning these troubled times in his book, Christus Vincit: Christ’s Triumph Over the Darkness of the Age (pp. 306-307):

Vigano is a very public example and a prelate - perhaps that is his crime - but in his heart, perhaps, only one of the "little ones of the persons who were put out to the periphery of Church," a very different version of the Catholic Church than we have seen before.

So, you believe that God disapproves of the Catholic Church, Vatican II, and we are all doomed for accepting it?

I believe God guides the Church which is infallible on morals and justice.

Pope Francis is a holy Pope; I have no doubt about it.

You seem to disagree and think Pope Francis serves Satan.
You seem to accept the former archbishop Vigano's position and actions.

No point in trying to change your mind, only God can do that. I'll pray for you.

 

[mourningdove~]

Perhaps you don't understand the spiritual meaning behind the word, "listen."

Just hearing his words, I have no problem with. Taking his words to heart as truth over
that which the Church teaches I do have a problem with.

The Church didn't just silence Vigano like they did St Padre Pio, the excommunicated him.

If you like Vigano and dislike Pope Francis, I need not saw more.

No need to get mean or hostile.
I'm sorry this discussion about Vigano angers you so.

I understand the meaning of the word listen.
But would you not agree that there is more than one way to interpret the word?

How was I know 'how' you were using it, without your explaining yourself.
But now you have, and I do understand your comment better.

I am not fond of Pope Francis because his peculiar statements, and his dislike for traditional Catholics, has confused me spiritually. I am not fond of spiritual leaders who confuse the flock. I am not enjoying the spiritual confusion Pope Francis has brought to my heart and mind.

... so, I guess you and I are done. I agree.

Thanks for your responses.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

No need to get mean or hostile.
I'm sorry this discussion about Vigano angers you so.

I understand the meaning of the word listen.
But would you not agree that there is more than one way to interpret the word?

How was I know 'how' you were using it, without your explaining yourself.
But now you have, and I do understand your comment better.

I am not fond of Pope Francis because his peculiar statements, and his dislike for traditional Catholics, has confused me spiritually. I am not fond of spiritual leaders who confuse the flock. I am not enjoying the spiritual confusion Pope Francis has brought to my heart and mind.

... so, I guess you and I are done. I agree.

Thanks for your responses.

I was not being mean as you took me, I apologize if you feel offended.

Pope Francis words have been taken out of context and twisted by the secular media,
which trads use, despite their dislike for the media. But if it's against Pope Francis,
it's absolutely true for them.

I agree, we are done.

I have nothing left to say about the former archbishop Vigano and
Pope Francis doesn't need my defense he hasn't said or did anything wrong.

 

[mourningdove~]

Are you completely confident that God approves the "new" Vatican II Catholic Church that has borne its latest fruit, Francis? Vigano is calling this latest fruit, using a term that is completely understandable in the light of history and Catholic Tradition, something unlike anything we have seen before, a church not in continuity with the past, and hence this "Bergoglian church".

What I think IS interesting is that the revival we are currently seeing in the Catholic Church is the revival that is happening now amongst traditional Catholics!

No synod needed. No need to sit and 'listen' ... for days and weeks and months on end ... to ongoing complaints.
Just let us have the Latin Mass ... and watch the revival in the Catholic Church continue to spread!!

( )