Aramaic Primacy

EclipseEventSigns

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This is a trial balloon post. Seeing if there are any others that have honestly investigated the possibility that the Greek text in the New Testament was actually originally written in Aramaic. It seems a ridiculous notion. But there was actually a lot of scholarship in the 1700's to early 1900's looking into this. I find it fascinating the more I research this topic. Looking at one evidence doesn't prove much. But when you investigate the hundreds of examples that exist it becomes hard to ignore. That is, unless you pretend to be an ostrich.

One expert linguistic scholar of the early 20th century was Torrey. He said of the thesis that Aramaic was the original language:
"As for the Gospels in particular, every possible proof that could be asked for has been furnished. In Our Translated Gospels, the evidence is presented in a form that must convince even the layman who is willing to examine it. Anyone with thorough knowledge of the language will testify that the Aramaic words presented are in fact what they are claimed to be, the natural and customary equivalents of the Greek, not ingenious creations. The reader can see with his own eyes, in more than 1oo typical and classified cases, how bits of pure nonsense in our [Greek] Gospels resulted naturally from translation of a Semitic text. All four Gospels, in all their parts (excepting Luke’s prologue and John 21) are rendered from Aramaic." (Our Translated Gospels, p. xvi)

Here's just a single example concept. This is found in "John Wrote In Aramaic" by J. De Zwaan, Journal of Biblical Literature, 1938 pp. 161-163. It's his review of one of Torrey's books of the time.

The verses examined are John 12:11 and John 15:16.

[Jhn 12:10-11 LSB] 10 But the chief priests planned to put Lazarus to death also; 11 because on account of him many of the Jews were going away and were believing in Jesus.

[Jhn 15:16 LSB] 16 "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and [that] your fruit would abide, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

Do you see the strange wording? John 12 says that many were going away and were believing. Going where? John 15 says Jesus told the disciples to go and bear fruit. Go where? We've gotten used to these strange phrases. But it's really from a Aramaic idiom which the Greek text doesn't recognize. And therefore the English translators have not recognized it either. I have not seen a single English version translate these passages in a way that recognizes the Aramaic idiom being used.

Zwaan states "In both places a well-known Hebrew and Aramaic idiom is mistranslated by a literal and stereotyped rendering. It is the idiom "to go and...." for "to grow, to become, to do more and more".

The Greek can be verified here:

Both texts use the Greek word "hypago" G5217 - hypagō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)
It has 2 meanings:
  1. to lead under, bring under
  2. to withdraw one's self, to go away, depart
However, looking at the Aramaic Peshitta (here: Analysis of Peshitta verse 'John 12:11'
and Analysis of Peshitta verse 'John 15:16')

The word used for "go" is described here: Word 't)zlwn'
It has 2 similar meanings:
1. to go, move along
2. to go away

BUT....it also has a very common 3rd meaning:
3. as a co-verb: to go ahead and do something, to continue, go on and on doing something

There it is. The Aramaic idiom that hasn't been recognized in the Greek or English translations.

Should be rendered:
John 12:11 - because on account of him many of the Jews were believing in Jesus more and more.
And this makes it much more clear as to why the chief priests wanted to murder Lazarus. It's because his influence were causing more and more people to believe in Jesus which threatened their hold on people.

John 15:16 - You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would bear more and more fruit, and [that] your fruit would abide, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

These verses have nothing to do with people going anywhere. It's the particular way the Aramaic language uses to describe increasing results of the particular verb being used.
 

Clare73

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This is a trial balloon post. Seeing if there are any others that have honestly investigated the possibility that the Greek text in the New Testament was actually originally written in Aramaic. It seems a ridiculous notion. But there was actually a lot of scholarship in the 1700's to early 1900's looking into this. I find it fascinating the more I research this topic. Looking at one evidence doesn't prove much. But when you investigate the hundreds of examples that exist it becomes hard to ignore. That is, unless you pretend to be an ostrich.
One expert linguistic scholar of the early 20th century was Torrey. He said of the thesis that Aramaic was the original language:
Here's just a single example concept. This is found in "John Wrote In Aramaic" by J. De Zwaan, Journal of Biblical Literature, 1938 pp. 161-163. It's his review of one of Torrey's books of the time.
The verses examined are John 12:11 and John 15:16.

[Jhn 12:10-11 LSB] 10 But the chief priests planned to put Lazarus to death also; 11 because on account of him many of the Jews were going away and were believing in Jesus.
That sounds to me like they were leaving the Scribes as their teachers and going with Jesus.
[Jhn 15:16 LSB] 16 "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and [that] your fruit would abide, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.
And that sounds to me like proceeding from here to now bear fruit.
Do you see the strange wording? John 12 says that many were going away and were believing. Going where? John 15 says Jesus told the disciples to go and bear fruit. Go where? We've gotten used to these strange phrases. But it's really from a Aramaic idiom which the Greek text doesn't recognize. And therefore the English translators have not recognized it either. I have not seen a single English version translate these passages in a way that recognizes the Aramaic idiom being used.

Zwaan states "In both places a well-known Hebrew and Aramaic idiom is mistranslated by a literal and stereotyped rendering. It is the idiom "to go and...." for "to grow, to become, to do more and more".

The Greek can be verified here:
Both texts use the Greek word "hypago" G5217 - hypagō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)
It has 2 meanings:
  1. to lead under, bring under
  2. to withdraw one's self, to go away, depart
However, looking at the Aramaic Peshitta (here: Analysis of Peshitta verse 'John 12:11'
and Analysis of Peshitta verse 'John 15:16')

The word used for "go" is described here: Word 't)zlwn'
It has 2 similar meanings:
1. to go, move along
2. to go away
BUT....it also has a very common 3rd meaning:

3. as a co-verb: to go ahead and do something, to continue, go on and on doing something
That's what it sounds like to me from the Greek.
There it is. The Aramaic idiom that hasn't been recognized in the Greek or English translations.
Should be rendered:
John 12:11 - because on account of him many of the Jews were believing in Jesus more and more.
The NIV translates it: "for on account of him many of the Jews were going over to Jesus and putting their faith in him."
And this makes it much more clear as to why the chief priests wanted to murder Lazarus. It's because his influence were causing more and more people to believe in Jesus which threatened their hold on people.

John 15:16 - You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would bear more and more fruit, and [that] your fruit would abide, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.
These verses have nothing to do with people going anywhere. It's the particular way the Aramaic language uses to describe increasing results of the particular verb being used.
Well, in the neck of the woods where I grew up, you could also hear the word "go" being used as having nothing to do with people going anywhere.
"You go and be a good girl now."
"You go and stop being unkind to your brother now."
"You go and wear this new sweater now when it gets cold."
 
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EclipseEventSigns

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That sounds to me like they were leaving the Scribes as their teachers and going with Jesus.

And that sounds to me like proceeding from here to now bear fruit.

That's what it sounds like to me from the Greek.

The NIV translates it: "for on account of him many of the Jews were going over to Jesus and putting their faith in him."

Well, in the neck of the woods where I grew up, you could also hear the word "go" being used as having nothing to do with people going anywhere.
"You go and be a good girl now."
"You go and stop being unkind to your brother now."
"You go and wear this new sweater now when it gets cold."
Ok....so denying the whole thing even though it's presented in black and white. Gotcha.
 
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Clare73

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Ok....so denying the whole thing even though it's presented in black and white. Gotcha.
Not denying it, it just seems like a nothing burger to me.
I don't see any significant change in meaning thereby.

Has even one transcript of the whole NT in Aramaic ever been found?
 
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EclipseEventSigns

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Not denying it, it just seems like a nothing burger to me.
I don't see any significant change in meaning thereby.

Has even one transcript of the NT in Aramaic ever been found?
If is "seems" to you? Have you actually examined the Greek and the Aramaic words and how the Greek word doesn't have the meaning that the Aramaic idiom does? You state the NIV translation for some reason as if that has the meaning that's in the Aramaic. It doesn't.

And yes, there are many manuscripts of the NT in Aramaic. That's a good research project for you.
 
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HARK!

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That is, unless you pretend to be an ostrich.

ostrich_head.jpg

Seriously though. I have read considerable evidence that the Gospel attributed to Matthew was originally written in Hebrew.

I would also question why a Hebrew, who spoke Hebrew, would write a letter to the Hebrews, who spoke Hebrew, in Greek.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Yup. Lol. The Message has the Jews "going over". To where?
Sometimes idioms are mentioned in the footnotes. Such as the idiom to uncover nakedness meant that Cain had sex with his mother.

You didn't mention what the idiom was and what it meant, or it just wasn't clear from the OP. Could you kindly elaborate?
 
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EclipseEventSigns

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Sometimes idioms are mentioned in the footnotes. Such as the idiom to uncover nakedness meant that Cain had sex with his mother.

You didn't mention what the idiom was and what it meant, or it just wasn't clear from the OP. Could you kindly elaborate?
It's all explained in the post. I suggest re-reading it and examining the links as well.
 
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EclipseEventSigns

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Seriously though. I have read considerable evidence that the Gospel attributed to Matthew was originally written in Hebrew.

I would also question why a Hebrew, who spoke Hebrew, would write a letter to the Hebrews, who spoke Hebrew, in Greek.
I think it's more accurately worded this way. A question of why would an Israelite, who spoke Aramaic, write a letter to all Israelites both in the homeland and the diaspora who mostly spoke Aramaic, using the Greek language which they hated and had fought a bloody war against just centuries earlier and their ruling religious leaders explicitly forbade learning on pain of being expelled from society.
 
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I think it's more accurately worded this way. A question of why would an Israelite, who spoke Aramaic, write a letter to all Israelites both in the homeland and the diaspora who mostly spoke Aramaic, using the Greek language which they hated and had fought a bloody war against just centuries earlier and their ruling religious leaders explicitly forbade learning on pain of being expelled from society.
As demonstrated by the scrolls written by the Zadokites at Betharaba, Israelites were clearly writing in Hebrew in the days of Yahshua.

If the letter was written exclusively to the Israelites; why was it titled Hebrews?
 
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Gregory Thompson

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It's all explained in the post. I suggest re-reading it and examining the links as well.
It wasn't clear so it's like writing an essay without a thesis, not sure if too many other people will get it either.
 
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EclipseEventSigns

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As demonstrated by the scrolls written by the Zadokites at Betharaba, Israelites were clearly writing in Hebrew in the days of Yahshua.

If the letter was written exclusively to the Israelites; why was it titled Hebrews?
Hebrews = Israelites (as the descendants of Jacob). Pretty clear in the entire Bible. As Paul states:
[2Co 11:22 LSB] 22 Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they Abraham's seed? So am I.

There was no claim that Hebrew language was not in use. The evidence suggests that Hebrew was only used by religious class and scribes. The language of the common folk was Aramaic. That is exactly why the Targums existed and were in use in all Synagogues (Targums are Aramaic translations of the Old Testament).
 
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Clare73

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If is "seems" to you? Have you actually examined the Greek and the Aramaic words and how the Greek word doesn't have the meaning that the Aramaic idiom does?
It's not about single words, it's about phrases and what they are commonly understood to mean.
You state the NIV translation for some reason as if that has the meaning that's in the Aramaic. It doesn't.
I state the NIV translation because it is an accurate rendering of the phrase.
And yes, there are many manuscripts of the NT in Aramaic. That's a good research project for you.
Misrepresentation does not an argument make. . .but it is revealing nevertheless.
 
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EclipseEventSigns

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It's not about single words, it's about phrases and what they are commonly understood to mean.

I state the NIV translation because it is an accurate rendering of the phrase.

Misrepresentation does not an argument make. . .but it is revealing nevertheless.
Your entire reply does not make sense.
 
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PsaltiChrysostom

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The only NT document that may have been written first in Aramaic is the Gospel of Matthew.

Matthew put together the oracles [of the Lord] in the Hebrew language, and each one interpreted them as best he could. [The same person uses proofs from the First Epistle of John, and from the Epistle of Peter in like manner. And he also gives another story of a woman who was accused of many sins before the Lord, which is to be fount in the Gospel according to the Hebrews.]

— Papias circa 120 CE, quoted by Eusebius, Church History
 
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