Arab World's Response to Beheading!

Larry · May 13, 2004

I want to apologize if my words offended anyone. I guess I was a little more enraged over the slaugher of Berg than I thought. A good night sleep is what I need.

It's bedtime for me. Good night all.

Yitzchak · May 13, 2004

Jeremiah the Bullfrog said:
Then why is condemnation not widespread? Are a large number of Muslims radical fundimentalists?

I would assume that they too are afraid of becoming targets , espeacially if they live in areas where these groups are known to operate.

jameseb · May 13, 2004

Larry said:
I want to apologize if my words offended anyone. I guess I was a little more enraged over the slaugher of Berg than I thought. A good night sleep is what I need.

It's bedtime for me. Good night all.

Larry, I think its very humble for you to apologize, but I do not think it was required. You're surely as engraged as I am over this brutal sick act. Some people should have had a little more grace and backed off and let some of us let off a little steam.

Crofter · May 13, 2004

neocon said:
How about the Million or more Saddam killed?

???

Saddan killed Iraqi civilians... so that justifies America to kill more Iraqi civilians...?

err....

lol... why is that logic lost on me...?

jameseb · May 13, 2004

Crofter said:
???

Saddan killed Iraqi civilians... so that justifies America to kill more Iraqi civilians...?

err....

lol... why is that logic lost on me...?

He didn't suggest it had anything to do with "justifying America to kill more Iraqi civilians." Where did you get that idea from?

He was quoting Rahma who expressed outrage over the dead in Iraq. He was justified in asking about her outrage over the hundreds of thousands that died under Saddam, not to mention our soldiers that sacrificed their lives in this war.

SolomonVII · May 13, 2004

jameseb said:
Exactly. I don't understand why the number of non-Muslims here are acting in a Muslim apologetic role. I think its evident even from the Qu'ran that Islam is fudamentalism to the extreme. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that those that are considered 'moderate Islamists' are 'water-downed' versions of what Islam is supposed to be.

Fundamentalist Islam calls for the Qu'ran to be followed even more thoroughly than any country is practicing it today. There is no significant political movement in the Islamic world capable of forming a government( that I am aware of) that is promoting a moderate Islam. Nigeria, Sudan, Malyasia are three countries to name a few where a return to the fundamentals of the Koran and Sharia Law are what is being promoted. It is moderate, secular Islam that is on the wane, or so it appears to me.
What is sharia law? As far as I know, among other things,it is amputations, beheadings, stonings and other medieval practices, as well as different classifications of citizenship based upon whether or not you are a Moslem.

But to stay on topic, a tv news report answered the question quite well when it said that the Arab response to the beheading was muted.
As often as not, it appears to me that the typical Moslem response to any atrocity is to at most express some regret or disgust, then before the next breath point out how Moslems are being victimized by America. There is no real soul-searching for why such behavior is linked to their religion, in spite of the amount of times the terrorist or criminal will shout ALLAH AKBAR!<sp> while committing the crime. Before any soul-searching can take place, their focus turns to the evil of people outside their religion.

MediocrityInAction · May 13, 2004

newlamb said:
Ok, so I was speaking in grief and anger at the barbarism of the killing. I'm thinking about apologizing.

But, does not Islam condone removal of heads, hands, etc. as punishments for various crimes?

And why not? To take a slight tangent, capital punishment exists in some cultures while not in others. The USA for example makes use of capital punishment.

jameseb · May 13, 2004

solomon said:
There is no real soul-searching for why such behavior is linked to their religion, in spite of the amount of times the terrorist or criminal will shout ALLAH AKBAR!<sp> while committing the crime. Before any soul-searching can take place, their focus turns to the evil of people outside their religion.

Again, your entire post is made irrefutable in its clarity and pointed truths. In particular I want to add an 'amen' to that quoted paragraph.

gybefan · May 13, 2004

jameseb said:
Then you and I disagree on what is considered "truth."

I consider truth to be not speaking against a religion that I don't fully understand.

jameseb said:
Also, where's the cultural and religious war against Islam here? The Islamic apologetics are in the majority here so I fail to see what you claim to see here.

You asked why defend them - I said why not, if they deserve defense?

jameseb said:
No, I think Muhammad's examples of torturing, mutilating and murdering his so-called enemies reflects on Islam as a whole. Its such incidents that inspire these terrorists.

It's interesting that you avoid thinking about the 1.3 billion Muslims who are peaceful, and solely consider the examples of the bad ones. Isn't this what some conservatives are decrying in the case of the prison abuses?

stillsmallvoice · May 13, 2004

Hi all!

Didn't anybody notice that, like Daniel Pearl, Nick Berg was also a Jew? Islamic Jew-hatred (http://www.memri.org/antisemitism.html & http://tinyurl.com/2nnef (and hatred of Christianity!, see http://tinyurl.com/3b8h6) is not nearly as understood in the West as it should be. My wife is from South Africa & I have read alot in the last 15 years about South African history (in addition to having traveled there 6 times). I am convinced that when D.F. Malan, Henrik Vervoed, et. al. were cooking up their hell-spawned apartheid (which, like fascism & communism has been put in the ash heap of history where it belongs), they got hold of some books on Islam & based apartheid on Islam's concept of dhimmi, i.e. that Jews and Christians are to be, deservedly, relegated to a second-class status & denied anything approaching equal rights. And please, do not accuse me of being an anti-Islamic bigot! Jews, Muslims & Christians have known (all too rare, unfortunately, the Golden Age in Spain was a long time ago) periods of peaceful coexistence. I hope, pray, and believe that the Children of Isaac & the Children of Ishmael will one day reconcile & embrace each other as brothers (see http://tinyurl.com/2y2rd and http://tinyurl.com/3yr59); indeed, our Sages comment on Genesis 25:9 (oh, I forgot, the Torah & the Gospels are malicious fabrications, silly, evil me!) and teach that Isaac & Ishmael reconciled when they came together to bury their father Abraham.

Ahh, but what do I know? I'm just a Nazi Zionist lackey of Crusader America who conspired to bring down the World Trade Center, infect Muslim babies with AIDS, seduce Bill Clinton, run Fraiser & Friends off the air, etc., etc., etc., etc.

Be well!

ssv

Starscream · May 13, 2004

jameseb said:
Larry, I think its very humble for you to apologize, but I do not think it was required. You're surely as engraged as I am over this brutal sick act. Some people should have had a little more grace and backed off and let some of us let off a little steam.

The calls for grace can go both ways, James. Why should you or others feel justified in taking your rage out in a way that offends/hurts others? Where's the grace in that?

I suppose you're free to blow off a little steam, although I doubt that's the purpose of these boards. But once you do so on a public forum are your comments not fair game for criticisim?

BarbB · May 13, 2004

ssv, I hadn't noticed that - shows how dense I can be. I knew that Daniel Pearl was Jewish, but not Berg. Duh! Well, if you are a Zionist lackey, then I want to join your club!

Existential1 · May 13, 2004

the Arab response to the beheading was muted.
As often as not, it appears to me that the typical Moslem response to any atrocity is to at most express some regret or disgust, then before the next breath point out how Moslems are being victimized by America. There is no real soul-searching for why such behavior is linked to their religion, in spite of the amount of times the terrorist or criminal will shout ALLAH AKBAR!<sp> while committing the crime. Before any soul-searching can take place, their focus turns to the evil of people outside their religion.

So, remove the detail of "Allah Akbar": and transpose Christian for Moslem, and Islam for America; and their response and ours tends to be pretty much equivalent, and follow pretty much the same sequence.
All of us are slow to acknowledge that our most fundamental beliefs, which are foundational to our society and identity, lead to the harm of those outside our faith collective and communion.
How deeply do you and I reflect on just how our Christianity has led to the firing of some artillery piece, as its projectile hurtles towards some human being it will soon rip to shreds. How robustly do we then strive to countervail our own social processes, in the light of derived understanding: how powerfully do we move against our collective believing.

..

Kripost · May 13, 2004

solomon said:
Fundamentalist Islam calls for the Qu'ran to be followed even more thoroughly than any country is practicing it today. There is no significant political movement in the Islamic world capable of forming a government( that I am aware of) that is promoting a moderate Islam. Nigeria, Sudan, Malyasia are three countries to name a few where a return to the fundamentals of the Koran and Sharia Law are what is being promoted. It is moderate, secular Islam that is on the wane, or so it appears to me.
What is sharia law? As far as I know, among other things,it is amputations, beheadings, stonings and other medieval practices, as well as different classifications of citizenship based upon whether or not you are a Moslem.

I am not so sure of the situation in Nigeria and Sudan, but as a Malaysian, I am quite certain of how it is in Malaysia.

In Malaysia, the Sharia Law is only made binding to Muslim, and it is modified such that there are no amputations, or stonings. People from other religions are free to worship as they like, as long as they do not present a disruptive force in society. There are also no additional taxes imposed on non-muslims. However, it is illegal to proselytize a Muslim. As for muslim apostates, the penalty is usually a fine or rehabilitation. Technically, in one state ruled by a 'fundamentalist' party, there is a death penalty, but cannot be carried out because of opposition from the Federal government.

Although there is some form of religious police in Malaysia, they hardly have any real power, as they do not have judicial authority. Their overzealous acts as reported in the papers may be embarassing for the country, but fortunately they are few are far between. Usually there will be an outcry in the local papers criticising the actions of their actions.

The majority of the Muslim population in the country are moderates, and do not want a fundamentalist state. This is especially so in the urban areas, where the people are generally more educated, have more interaction with non-muslims, and recognise that extremism would retard the economy. Moreover there are Islamic women rights organization, who are rather vocal in the country, and is supported by the government.

applepowerpc · May 13, 2004

Jews, Muslims & Christians have known (all too rare, unfortunately, the Golden Age in Spain was a long time ago) periods of peaceful coexistence.

Indeed. Such as Jerusalem, for the past 1000 years before 1948 came along. Jews, Muslims, and Christians lived peacefully alongside each other in Jerusalem for a long time. The Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem and the wailing wall both aren't exactly still standing because the evil, belligerent Muslims couldn't have levelled them both hundreds of years ago. Jews also lived peacefully in Iraq for thousands of years as well, but...we're not supposed to know that....

The problem is Zionism. Say all you want, but anti-Zionism is *NOT* anti-Judaism. Judaism is nothing special--it's no better or worse than any other non-Christian religion out there--and in America you're free to practice it. Now suddenly we need this "Jewish holy state", right on top of the peacefully-coexisting Muslims' homes, we need to bomb and terrorize Sephardic Iraqi Jews into making aliyah, Sephardic AND Yemenite Jews are treated as inferior citizens in the Zionist apartheid Israeli state, and now the rest of the world somehow has to be dragged into this mess.

Jews have proven they can peacefully coexist. Zionists have proven they cannot.

BarbB · May 13, 2004

applepowerpc said:
Jews, Muslims & Christians have known (all too rare, unfortunately, the Golden Age in Spain was a long time ago) periods of peaceful coexistence.

Indeed. Such as Jerusalem, for the past 1000 years before 1948 came along. Jews, Muslims, and Christians lived peacefully alongside each other in Jerusalem for a long time. The Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem and the wailing wall both aren't exactly still standing because the evil, belligerent Muslims couldn't have levelled them both hundreds of years ago. Jews also lived peacefully in Iraq for thousands of years as well, but...we're not supposed to know that....

The problem is Zionism. Say all you want, but anti-Zionism is *NOT* anti-Judaism. Judaism is nothing special--it's no better or worse than any other non-Christian religion out there--and in America you're free to practice it. Now suddenly we need this "Jewish holy state", right on top of the peacefully-coexisting Muslims' homes, we need to bomb and terrorize Sephardic Iraqi Jews into making aliyah, Sephardic AND Yemenite Jews are treated as inferior citizens in the Zionist apartheid Israeli state, and now the rest of the world somehow has to be dragged into this mess.

Jews have proven they can peacefully coexist. Zionists have proven they cannot.

I don't even know where to start, so I won't!

applepowerpc · May 13, 2004

Okay, maybe I can help narrow it down:

- Jews, Christians, and Muslims co-existed peacefully in Jerusalem for the last 1000 years. Am I wrong?

- Jews lived peacefully in Iraq, tracing all the way back to Babylonian exile in 605bc. Then they were bombed, terrorized into fleeing to Israel. The bombings were traced to Zionists, trying to force Jews to flee to Israel. Am I wrong?

- Lots of people are anti-Israel, but not anti-Jewish. Some of those anti-Israel's are themselves Jewish. Am I wrong?

- Muslims peacefully co-existed in Palestine for 1000 years before Zionists came along and felt "called" to possess "their" land. Am I wrong?

- Sephardic Jews are treated as second-class citizens to European Ashkenazis in Israel. But at least they are citizens--more than the Palestinians can say. Am I wrong?

- The Protocols of Zion explicitly call for a perpetual state of war. Am I wrong?

UnhandledException · May 13, 2004

trunks2k said:
Correction: It's the face of radical fundamentalism.

No. It's the face of Islam.

marshlewis · May 13, 2004

jameseb said:
Exactly. I don't understand why the number of non-Muslims here are acting in a Muslim apologetic role. I think its evident even from the Qu'ran that Islam is fudamentalism to the extreme. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that those that are considered 'moderate Islamists' are 'water-downed' versions of what Islam is supposed to be.

You give your own powers of reason and deduction far to much credit.

UnhandledException · May 13, 2004

Existential1 said:
Probably all the answers would also explain why were so slow to register and condemn the detainee abuses.
Probably as many radical fundamentalists in Islam, as there are in Chritianity: I would be surprised if it were fewer.

..

That's a bunch of bunk. As soon as you hear any of the soldiers saying "In the name of Jesus, I drag you with this leash", then the Christian church will speak. Believe me.

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